Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #20

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #541
In another case that Garland's Defense Lawyer, Kim Ross is defending, a violent double homicide involving a young child, Ross convinced his client to plead down to a lesser charge. This spares the family a lengthy court proceeding, but omits the first degree penalties. Granted, the difference is miniscule.

Looking back at Ross's other cases, he does have a track record of pleading out. It begs the question - Will a plea deal be forthcoming in the Liknes/O'Brien case? Perhaps for three counts of second degree homicide in return for disclosing details of disposal?

http://globalnews.ca/news/1916236/accused-in-evanston-double-murder-pleads-guilty/
 
  • #542
I am noticing that the back deck area which LoisLane is referring to, looks like it is the garage (as determined by seeing the vehicles parked in front side of this portion of the building). It looks like the deck on the back of that part of that portion of the building could be at a different level than the main back deck, and is accessible by the back door of the presumed garage. That would explain why this section of the building has no windows, and no apparent basement. The main part of the house does look like it has a basement, considering it has windows at ground level.

When I showed the gridding pictures to my husband, without him knowing much about what I was showing him... the first thing he thought, was that this land has been gridded off and that 'sonar' has already been done. He said sonar can tell a bunch of things, such as where the land is more soft, and may have been dug up more recently than other parts, where things might be seen to exist underground, etc. (But yet police don't seem to be digging anywhere).

When I saw police down on their hands and knees and lying down to go through the land with such precision at eye level like that, it made me wonder if they are looking for things that may be spread out all over the land, like say perhaps tiny things, like teeth, or pieces of gold, or tiny bone fragments.. is there a wood chipper on the property? I don't recall seeing one or talking about that possibility (but that might be a common thing to have on a farm, but perhaps not on this 'farm' which doesn't have a forested area?)... but when I think about it, although I am definitely not a fan of the 'dissolving people' theory, it would make more sense to me if first the bodies were put through a wood chipper... and then *maybe* put in some kind of liquid to 'dissolve' what was left, but I really struggle with that theory.

In any case.. I could see the wood chipper thing.. except.. just say.. bodies were put through a chipper, and then scattered all over land to act as fertilizer or some crazy *ssed thing. There may be little bone fragments, where are the peoples' jewellery(?), teeth, etc... but.. wouldn't little bone pieces have been tracked down by both men and dogs in the summer? That doesn't really make sense to me either. Although.. if the bodies were 'dissolved', I imagine there would still be pieces that would not dissolve, and those may be what is being looked for with fine-toothed comb? And after being in a 'solution', I suppose dogs would no longer be able to get a scent of human?

I also have wondered if the property's septic has been investigated, which is a much simpler theory than 'dissolving people'.. so I'm sure LE has looked well into that months ago. (And for the size of home and number of occupants, I'm assuming this home would have a relatively tiny septic tank, much too small to place 2 adults and 1 child into). Husband said the septic would likely be more or less straight out from the small window at the back of the house, since that is likely the home's bathroom, with probably the eating area, and then the kitchen next to it. And interestingly, that is where it looks like the land may have been dug up, although the pic is blurred when it is blown up larger, so can't tell if it was dug up, or shadows, or rocks, or perhaps a garden, or what. (Although there was no garden there in the summer).

I notice LE are focussing all around the home, and I'm wondering.. if they think little pieces could be strewn all over the place.. they've got what.. hundreds of acres to comb, and would it make sense for a criminal to hide evidence all surrounding his own home, rather than in the vast fields which obviously he had access to, scattered far apart, not all condensed in one area? Doesn't make sense to me.

Quite frankly, I am wondering if LE and prosecution may be fretting a little more as this case comes closer to revealing their evidence via a preliminary hearing, .. fretting because perhaps their evidence isn't quite *there* yet, so they're being advised to find *some*thing more tangible to present to a jury. It sounds (from previous LE/prosecution statements) like the prosecution's theory is more of a scientific theory with circumstantial evidence, which may be prove difficult for a jury to determine guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

I also wonder about grandstanding, but it looks like they have put a lot of resources into this current search, so I'm thinking it's definitely more than grandstanding, and they need more tangible evidence to get a conviction.

MOO

PS When I thought about the potential sonar and potentially discovering some softer portions of the land if dug up more recently (as in more recent years too).. I wondered about more historical cases, in addition to this specific case.. it made me wonder if LE may be seeking some kind of evidence on a different, perhaps cold case(s?). It does seem hard for *me* to imagine that a man could jump from a historical petty criminal history to a mass murderer including the murder of a child, which child also happened to be his sister's own nephew. MOO
 
  • #543
I am noticing that the back deck area which LoisLane is referring to, looks like it is the garage (as determined by seeing the vehicles parked in front side of this portion of the building). It looks like the deck on the back of that part of that portion of the building could be at a different level than the main back deck, and is accessible by the back door of the presumed garage. That would explain why this section of the building has no windows, and no apparent basement. The main part of the house does look like it has a basement, considering it has windows at ground level.

When I showed the gridding pictures to my husband, without him knowing much about what I was showing him... the first thing he thought, was that this land has been gridded off and that 'sonar' has already been done. He said sonar can tell a bunch of things, such as where the land is more soft, and may have been dug up more recently than other parts, where things might be seen to exist underground, etc. (But yet police don't seem to be digging anywhere).

When I saw police down on their hands and knees and lying down to go through the land with such precision at eye level like that, it made me wonder if they are looking for things that may be spread out all over the land, like say perhaps tiny things, like teeth, or pieces of gold, or tiny bone fragments.. is there a wood chipper on the property? I don't recall seeing one or talking about that possibility (but that might be a common thing to have on a farm, but perhaps not on this 'farm' which doesn't have a forested area?)... but when I think about it, although I am definitely not a fan of the 'dissolving people' theory, it would make more sense to me if first the bodies were put through a wood chipper... and then *maybe* put in some kind of liquid to 'dissolve' what was left, but I really struggle with that theory.

In any case.. I could see the wood chipper thing.. except.. just say.. bodies were put through a chipper, and then scattered all over land to act as fertilizer or some crazy *ssed thing. There may be little bone fragments, where are the peoples' jewellery(?), teeth, etc... but.. wouldn't little bone pieces have been tracked down by both men and dogs in the summer? That doesn't really make sense to me either. Although.. if the bodies were 'dissolved', I imagine there would still be pieces that would not dissolve, and those may be what is being looked for with fine-toothed comb? And after being in a 'solution', I suppose dogs would no longer be able to get a scent of human?

I also have wondered if the property's septic has been investigated, which is a much simpler theory than 'dissolving people'.. so I'm sure LE has looked well into that months ago. (And for the size of home and number of occupants, I'm assuming this home would have a relatively tiny septic tank, much too small to place 2 adults and 1 child into). Husband said the septic would likely be more or less straight out from the small window at the back of the house, since that is likely the home's bathroom, with probably the eating area, and then the kitchen next to it. And interestingly, that is where it looks like the land may have been dug up, although the pic is blurred when it is blown up larger, so can't tell if it was dug up, or shadows, or rocks, or perhaps a garden, or what. (Although there was no garden there in the summer).

I notice LE are focussing all around the home, and I'm wondering.. if they think little pieces could be strewn all over the place.. they've got what.. hundreds of acres to comb, and would it make sense for a criminal to hide evidence all surrounding his own home, rather than in the vast fields which obviously he had access to, scattered far apart, not all condensed in one area? Doesn't make sense to me.

Quite frankly, I am wondering if LE and prosecution may be fretting a little more as this case comes closer to revealing their evidence via a preliminary hearing, .. fretting because perhaps their evidence isn't quite *there* yet, so they're being advised to find *some*thing more tangible to present to a jury. It sounds (from previous LE/prosecution statements) like the prosecution's theory is more of a scientific theory with circumstantial evidence, which may be prove difficult for a jury to determine guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

I also wonder about grandstanding, but it looks like they have put a lot of resources into this current search, so I'm thinking it's definitely more than grandstanding, and they need more tangible evidence to get a conviction.

MOO

PS When I thought about the potential sonar and potentially discovering some softer portions of the land if dug up more recently (as in more recent years too).. I wondered about more historical cases, in addition to this specific case.. it made me wonder if LE may be seeking some kind of evidence on a different, perhaps cold case(s?). It does seem hard for *me* to imagine that a man could jump from a historical petty criminal history to a mass murderer including the murder of a child, which child also happened to be his sister's own nephew. MOO

I thought the searching seemed very close to the house as well, which seems quite perverse and sick of him to do this. After LE searched vast fields and those ponds and this whole time he might've kept them close to his home (and parents which is so nervy to me). It's been done before though so not really surprising, just disturbing.
 
  • #544
I am noticing that the back deck area which LoisLane is referring to, looks like it is the garage (as determined by seeing the vehicles parked in front side of this portion of the building). It looks like the deck on the back of that part of that portion of the building could be at a different level than the main back deck, and is accessible by the back door of the presumed garage. That would explain why this section of the building has no windows, and no apparent basement. The main part of the house does look like it has a basement, considering it has windows at ground level.

When I showed the gridding pictures to my husband, without him knowing much about what I was showing him... the first thing he thought, was that this land has been gridded off and that 'sonar' has already been done. He said sonar can tell a bunch of things, such as where the land is more soft, and may have been dug up more recently than other parts, where things might be seen to exist underground, etc. (But yet police don't seem to be digging anywhere).

When I saw police down on their hands and knees and lying down to go through the land with such precision at eye level like that, it made me wonder if they are looking for things that may be spread out all over the land, like say perhaps tiny things, like teeth, or pieces of gold, or tiny bone fragments.. is there a wood chipper on the property? I don't recall seeing one or talking about that possibility (but that might be a common thing to have on a farm, but perhaps not on this 'farm' which doesn't have a forested area?)... but when I think about it, although I am definitely not a fan of the 'dissolving people' theory, it would make more sense to me if first the bodies were put through a wood chipper... and then *maybe* put in some kind of liquid to 'dissolve' what was left, but I really struggle with that theory.

In any case.. I could see the wood chipper thing.. except.. just say.. bodies were put through a chipper, and then scattered all over land to act as fertilizer or some crazy *ssed thing. There may be little bone fragments, where are the peoples' jewellery(?), teeth, etc... but.. wouldn't little bone pieces have been tracked down by both men and dogs in the summer? That doesn't really make sense to me either. Although.. if the bodies were 'dissolved', I imagine there would still be pieces that would not dissolve, and those may be what is being looked for with fine-toothed comb? And after being in a 'solution', I suppose dogs would no longer be able to get a scent of human?

I also have wondered if the property's septic has been investigated, which is a much simpler theory than 'dissolving people'.. so I'm sure LE has looked well into that months ago. (And for the size of home and number of occupants, I'm assuming this home would have a relatively tiny septic tank, much too small to place 2 adults and 1 child into). Husband said the septic would likely be more or less straight out from the small window at the back of the house, since that is likely the home's bathroom, with probably the eating area, and then the kitchen next to it. And interestingly, that is where it looks like the land may have been dug up, although the pic is blurred when it is blown up larger, so can't tell if it was dug up, or shadows, or rocks, or perhaps a garden, or what. (Although there was no garden there in the summer).

I notice LE are focussing all around the home, and I'm wondering.. if they think little pieces could be strewn all over the place.. they've got what.. hundreds of acres to comb, and would it make sense for a criminal to hide evidence all surrounding his own home, rather than in the vast fields which obviously he had access to, scattered far apart, not all condensed in one area? Doesn't make sense to me.

Quite frankly, I am wondering if LE and prosecution may be fretting a little more as this case comes closer to revealing their evidence via a preliminary hearing, .. fretting because perhaps their evidence isn't quite *there* yet, so they're being advised to find *some*thing more tangible to present to a jury. It sounds (from previous LE/prosecution statements) like the prosecution's theory is more of a scientific theory with circumstantial evidence, which may be prove difficult for a jury to determine guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

I also wonder about grandstanding, but it looks like they have put a lot of resources into this current search, so I'm thinking it's definitely more than grandstanding, and they need more tangible evidence to get a conviction.

MOO

PS When I thought about the potential sonar and potentially discovering some softer portions of the land if dug up more recently (as in more recent years too).. I wondered about more historical cases, in addition to this specific case.. it made me wonder if LE may be seeking some kind of evidence on a different, perhaps cold case(s?). It does seem hard for *me* to imagine that a man could jump from a historical petty criminal history to a mass murderer including the murder of a child, which child also happened to be his sister's own nephew. MOO
I think you are very close to my theory on this case... They seem to be looking for VERY small particles. So small, that they have to get right down to the ground. Clearly the method he chose was in an attempt to completely erase their existence and/or his crime.

It is very possible that with time, the statements and evidence has solidified their initial theory and now they are looking for every single shred of proof to confirm the findings. With the preliminary hearing on the horizon, they cannot risk any evidence being discluded. It will be a highly technical case and solid, irrefutable evidence is crucial to a case built on circumstantial evidence.
 
  • #545
Many pages back, myself and another member got stuck in a debate on the septic system, a synopsis on that debate;
Me: was it pumped?
WS member: why pump it out if it's not needed?
Me: because something like evidence was needed for removal?
WS member: did it need pumping out?
Me: if there was evidence needing being removed?
and so forth.

The point being was, if I call a septic pump truck out, they will without question pump out my tank. Did LE check septic companies to see if this address had a pump out performed?

anyhoo, looking at the pictures, and, the stack/vent pipes on the roof, it is easy to determine the layout of where bathrooms are and the kitchen and likely where the septic tank is and those areas marked off look just like a marker system that I laid out to determine where the field pipes were in relation to the tank. In the picture above it appears to be a four line septic field with an older code holding/digester tank 6 feet out from the house.

When marking a field, one person goes out with a detector gun while another person feeds a camera with a sensor down a (capped when closed) field line inspection/entry point/pipe. As one person feeds the camera thru the pipes, the sensor gun picks up the cameras location above ground.

It was the very first thought I had when I saw that picture above.

Had he flushed or just dumped the remains directly into the tank, he could have shocked the system with enzymes to speed up digestion and/or forced the system (very tricky) into running the field from the tank. By doing the latter and not allowing proper digestion, the field lines can get overwhelmed and not allow natural saturation into the ground, thus causing a drowning of the field and the sad uneventful stoppage of the flow from the septic tank which consequently causes slowed to zero drainage from toilets and showers and sinks.

This is what his parents might have been up against, never having experienced this might have got them thinking.

The only real/natural reason for flow stoppage is grease and I'm sure they had the grease problem thing figured out years ago.

IMEO

In My Experienced Opinion
 
  • #546
Many pages back, myself and another member got stuck in a debate on the septic system, a synopsis on that debate;
Me: was it pumped?
WS member: why pump it out if it's not needed?
Me: because something like evidence was needed for removal?
WS member: did it need pumping out?
Me: if there was evidence needing being removed?
and so forth.

The point being was, if I call a septic pump truck out, they will without question pump out my tank. Did LE check septic companies to see if this address had a pump out performed?

anyhoo, looking at the pictures, and, the stack/vent pipes on the roof, it is easy to determine the layout of where bathrooms are and the kitchen and likely where the septic tank is and those areas marked off look just like a marker system that I laid out to determine where the field pipes were in relation to the tank. In the picture above it appears to be a four line septic field with an older code holding/digester tank 6 feet out from the house.

When marking a field, one person goes out with a detector gun while another person feeds a camera with a sensor down a (capped when closed) field line inspection/entry point/pipe. As one person feeds the camera thru the pipes, the sensor gun picks up the cameras location above ground.

It was the very first thought I had when I saw that picture above.

Had he flushed or just dumped the remains directly into the tank, he could have shocked the system with enzymes to speed up digestion and/or forced the system (very tricky) into running the field from the tank. By doing the latter and not allowing proper digestion, the field lines can get overwhelmed and not allow natural saturation into the ground, thus causing a drowning of the field and the sad uneventful stoppage of the flow from the septic tank which consequently causes slowed to zero drainage from toilets and showers and sinks.

This is what his parents might have been up against, never having experienced this might have got them thinking.

The only real/natural reason for flow stoppage is grease and I'm sure they had the grease problem thing figured out years ago.

IMEO

In My Experienced Opinion
Ah, memories... There is a song there.

Question: Does the weather changing from the season's effect the septic system? Just wondering if indeed the parent's spurred the renewed interest due to trouble with their lines.
 
  • #547
Stan, do you think the markers and grid mapped out on the lawn is for the septic?
 
  • #548
I Wanted to add that dissolved/burned bits put in the septic tank (and I just read Deugirtni's post, pologies). And yes, even a small septic tank could hold three bodies, but they would need to be prepped for digestion, but that would be slow and more than likely to cause jamming in the first holding department of more solid flushings. As that tank breaks down it flows slightly more viscous to the next holding area and then to the quicker liquid area that flows out to the field. A tank/digestor I worked on had seven solid to liquid break down tanks but likely theirs had three. The older tanks looked more like fiberglass, but most people swapped them out to more durable plastic tanks that didn't suffer from expansion and contraction from ground over the seasons. They might have even set up a concrete tank when they built the house, which was common too but very hard to do maintenance on if a pipe broke or collapsed.
 
  • #549
Stan, do you think the markers and grid mapped out on the lawn is for the septic?

Yes, absolutely!!!

That's exactly what it looked like when I mapped several fields in my yucky past employment. The stakes in the ground marked direction of lines. I could actually take the house and draw their field by what I'm seeing in that picture. If someone can post a google maps screen shot, I can take that picture and overlay it to better explain.
 
  • #550
Yes, absolutely!!!

That's exactly what it looked like when I mapped several fields in my yucky past employment. The stakes in the ground marked direction of lines. I could actually take the house and draw their field by what I'm seeing in that picture. If someone can post a google maps screen shot, I can take that picture and overlay it to better explain.

In the photo linked below the grass in front of the deck looks really bunched up. Is it possible that the septic backed up and flooded the area? And what is the long white pipe along the sides of the house?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=72034&d=1427861873
 
  • #551
In the photo upthread the grass in front of the deck looks really bunched up. Is it possible that the septic backed up and flooded the area?

it usually just seeps up and stinks to high heaven. Strangely enough, on my way out to fishing on Monday I could smell both carion and septic-weeping simultaneously while heading into Alberta prime cattle lands. Low and behold there were several back hoes, pump trucks building/repairing a septic system,,, my guess is the owners tried the wives tale of forcing the digestion by adding a carcass and ended up with a plugged rotting beast inside a fecal wasteland.

The rolled up pushed up grass could be them trying to access the cap to the tank,, which has a round opening from anywhere between 18 and 24 inches in diameter. If cement, the opening could be square and capped with a cement cap,, if plastic it would be round and threaded like a jar lid.
 
  • #552
I wonder if the work progressed today. I am guessing if it did LE would have given reporters the boot.
 
  • #553
Question: Does the weather changing from the season's effect the septic system? Just wondering if indeed the parent's spurred the renewed interest due to trouble with their lines.

Well, it's been an odd winter,,, while Ice fishing in January, ground was thawed where normally ground is pretty rock solid even at the end of March. But, no it shouldn't normally cause any problems unless he forced the system to flow at a greater rate than it normally digests, drowning the field above and beyond normal saturation from the elements from above i.e., rain and snow.
 
  • #554
  • #555
In the photo linked below the grass in front of the deck looks really bunched up. Is it possible that the septic backed up and flooded the area? And what is the long white pipe along the sides of the house?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=72034&d=1427861873

I'll need to look at older pictures on the pipe or whatever that is.

As for that picture, it looks like there might have been the first field in the fore of the house and then a second system put in. There is a definite line from where I guess the tank to be and the flow line (no holes in pipe) to the four saturating lines (holes in pipe/s). Some people go with just one line of saturating pipe but it's good to have four lines as it's less maintenance if a single line starts to fail, other lines will pick it up sufficiently.
 
  • #556
Well, it's been an odd winter,,, while Ice fishing in January, ground was thawed where normally ground is pretty rock solid even at the end of March. But, no it shouldn't normally cause any problems unless he forced the system to flow at a greater rate than it normally digests, drowning the field above and beyond normal saturation from the elements from above i.e., rain and snow.
How long would it take for enzymes to completely dissolve remains? Given the chemical knowledge of the accused, are there other chemicals besides enzymes that may have been used? Perhaps LE has records of purchases for this purpose.
 
  • #557
Kind of confusing to me that if LE had enough evidence in July to determine that the three would not be found (assuming they were confident as to why) then why didn't they investigate the septic in July in the same manner? Would they not have had stronger evidence 9 months ago if they had done so, compared to what they will acheive now?
 
  • #558
Kind of confusing to me that if LE had enough evidence in July to determine that the three would not be found (assuming they were confident as to why) then why didn't they investigate the septic in July in the same manner?
Perhaps they did? It would be logical to investigate something as common as a septic tank on a farm, especially considering the accused chemical knowledge. Maybe they found DNA or fragments but are searching for more. Hopefully Stan can help answer this one - Did it appear back then that they had investigated this angle?

The other possibility is that they found DNA in the truck, out-buildings or elsewhere on the property.
 
  • #559
How long would it take for enzymes to completely dissolve remains? Given the chemical knowledge of the accused, are there other chemicals besides enzymes that may have been used? Perhaps LE has records of purchases for this purpose.
typically septonic is used, but I can't say how long it would take to do flesh, as there is another factor in the digestion process, it's been awhile since working on systems but think of a jar of goose liver (fois de gras), it is packed in a jar that is in turn capped with a layer of fat inside the jar before the lid goes on. it's relevant so please bear with me. the fat stops air from reacting with the liver, thus, stopping the meat from spoiling. well fatted jars can be left open. the digestion in the septic tank is reliant on oxygen, and naturally turning/floating and sinking poo keeps the digestion burbling along. chicken carcasses sink,, so they kind of just burble apart without getting the aerobic (or is it anaerobic?) part that's crucial in the digesting bit.
 
  • #560
typically septonic is used, but I can't say how long it would take to do flesh, as there is another factor in the digestion process, it's been awhile since working on systems but think of a jar of goose liver (fois de gras), it is packed in a jar that is in turn capped with a layer of fat inside the jar before the lid goes on. it's relevant so please bear with me. the fat stops air from reacting with the liver, thus, stopping the meat from spoiling. well fatted jars can be left open. the digestion in the septic tank is reliant on oxygen, and naturally turning/floating and sinking poo keeps the digestion burbling along. chicken carcasses sink,, so they kind of just burble apart without getting the aerobic (or is it anaerobic?) part that's crucial in the digesting bit.

That is why I never partake in "fois de gras"... Yuck!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
73
Guests online
1,815
Total visitors
1,888

Forum statistics

Threads
632,330
Messages
18,624,802
Members
243,091
Latest member
ajf
Back
Top