Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #21

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  • #981
More technical problems:

Lucie Edwardson ‏@MetroLucie 1m1 minute ago

Mics in the courtroom are making a crazy feedback noise...brief break now to try and fix it.... #Garland #yyc

Since we're on a techno break, does anyone else here have problems with the tourist video advertising that's on this WS page? I've got 7(!) video ads for the same tourist thing, running on a loop, and if I don't shut off my java script, the videos shut down this page. If I shut down my java, then I can't read all the messages here.
 
  • #982
That's exactly the case I was thinking about Bravo! I do think that Derstine just made sure MR got a fair and balanced trial and that he had no chance for appeal. And after the initial shock of some of the things that went on, I did come to appreciate that he was doing what he had to do to make sure his clients rights were defended and therefore I really came to appreciate what he did and consider him to be an upstanding defence attorney.

I'm getting the same impression here.

MOO

Me too. Then I am in excellent company!
 
  • #983
Is it common for the defense to concede that all evidence was treated properly? The only other trial I have followed is the bosma trial and I don't remember an agreed statement of facts regarding evidence collection. Why would the defense concede to that? Wouldn't they want to leave that little bit of doubt in the jury's mind that maybe the evidence was contaminated?

I recently talked to a criminal lawyer who followed the Bosma case. He felt the defence lawyers erred in not using more agreed statements of facts. The parade of witnesses giving evidence often just solidifies the Crown's case. And at Bosma, it likely didn't make the jury happy to sit through all that only to have the defendants essentially admit almost everything at the end of the trial.

Juries aren't stupid. They work and see small errors at their own jobs. If someone makes a tiny slip in evidence collection, that doesn't raise doubt about an entire murder investigation and all the other evidence. You would need to see the cops making slip-up after slip-up or a major mistake to raise "reasonable" doubt. One competent professional testifying after another only makes the police look good.
 
  • #984
Since we're on a techno break, does anyone else here have problems with the tourist video advertising that's on this WS page? I've got 7(!) video ads for the same tourist thing, running on a loop, and if I don't shut off my java script, the videos shut down this page. If I shut down my java, then I can't read all the messages here.

I haven't noticed that specifically as a problem but I do have to refresh the page every few minutes or I don't get updated information. Maybe your Javascript just needs to be updated?
 
  • #985
Since we're on a techno break, does anyone else here have problems with the tourist video advertising that's on this WS page? I've got 7(!) video ads for the same tourist thing, running on a loop, and if I don't shut off my java script, the videos shut down this page. If I shut down my java, then I can't read all the messages here.

No probs here. I had to disable my adobe flash on this laptop. I go to another which is enabled with flash for news etc. I was having probs for months a bit ago. Maybe alert a Mod or tech guy? Sorry your having this as it's beyond frustrating!
 
  • #986
Lucie Edwardson ‏@MetroLucie 46s47 seconds ago
Gallen explains "oblique light" technique which allows investigators to see impressions at diff angles #Garland #yyc

Lucie Edwardson ‏@MetroLucie 4m4 minutes ago
No more mic feedback sound.. #Garland trial resuming now #yyc
 
  • #987
Lucie Edwardson ‏@MetroLucie 2m2 minutes ago
Gallen says the only way the chemical would change the footprint is if there are "several layers of blood" #Garland #yyc

Lucie Edwardson ‏@MetroLucie 3m3 minutes ago
Sgt. Gallen explains she sprayed a chemical that turns blood dark purple #Garland #yyc
 
  • #988
The Crown does not have to prove where the victims were actually killed if there is no evidence to prove it either way. The Crown is entitled to put together their version of events based on the evidence that has been collected and the witnesses who will present it and wind it into a narrative, that makes sense, for the jury. Without any statement from the accused, why wouldn't they go with the working theory that it was his intent to kill them, it was no accident with any of them? Considering the planning involved, it sure appears that way. It would make no sense to try to give him the benefit of the doubt and go with the least possible charges because they don't know. It's up to the jury to decide if he should be given the benefit of "doubt". And he didn't have to kill Nathan if his death wasn't part of the original plan. So killing him also became his intent. It only takes seconds to form intent and I'm pretty sure that Nathan did not represent any physical threat to him. I guess the experts are going to suggest that there was just not enough blood from any of the victims in the house to say definitively that one or more died there so they have to go with the assumption that all three may still have been alive when they were taken to the farm. Makes sense to me. And definitely warrant a first degree charge on all three of them.

It is up to the defence to counter the Crown's working theory with their own questions to the witnesses and possibly an alternative theory or just an obvious disagreement with what the Crown is proposing. Ultimately it is up to the jury to come to their own conclusions based on the evidence that is put before them. They can certainly reject the Crown's theory and go with one of their own if they choose when rendering their verdict. And they will be instructed that opening and closing statements are not evidence and should not factor into their own deliberations.

MOO

Again - the Crown doesn't need to prove intent or premeditation to murder for a first degree murder conviction - if they were killed during a kidnapping or while being unlawfully confined. If they were killed at the house or the farm - it doesn't ultimately matter (if they can prove that they were kidnapped and/or being unlawfully confined).
 
  • #989
[video=twitter;822509524309262336]https://twitter.com/MetroLucie/status/822509524309262336[/video]
 
  • #990
If a person is murdered during the commission of a kidnapping or while unlawfully confined, that’s first degree murder – whether or not the perp intended to kill from the outset. If he went there to abduct/kidnap/confine, and they were killed in that process – that’s first degree murder – including Nathan.

And this is why I think the charges for Nathan were changed from 2nd to 1st degree.
 
  • #991
Lucie Edwardson ‏@MetroLucie 1m1 minute ago
More
Sgt. Gallen said in this case there were footprints that became more visible when they sprayed them (here is an example) #Garland #yyc
 
  • #992
Lucie Edwardson ‏@MetroLucie 2m2 minutes ago

A power point has been prepared and supplied to court/jury to aide Gallen w/ giving her report #Garland #yyc
 
  • #993
I recently talked to a criminal lawyer who followed the Bosma case. He felt the defence lawyers erred in not using more agreed statements of facts. The parade of witnesses giving evidence often just solidifies the Crown's case. And at Bosma, it likely didn't make the jury happy to sit through all that only to have the defendants essentially admit almost everything at the end of the trial.

Juries aren't stupid. They work and see small errors at their own jobs. If someone makes a tiny slip in evidence collection, that doesn't raise doubt about an entire murder investigation and all the other evidence. You would need to see the cops making slip-up after slip-up or a major mistake to raise "reasonable" doubt. One competent professional testifying after another only makes the police look good.

I hadn't thought of it that way but it makes a lot of sense.
 
  • #994
That's exactly the case I was thinking about Bravo! I do think that Derstine just made sure MR got a fair and balanced trial and that he had no chance for appeal. And after the initial shock of some of the things that went on, I did come to appreciate that he was doing what he had to do to make sure his clients rights were defended and therefore I really came to appreciate what he did and consider him to be an upstanding defence attorney.

I'm getting the same impression here.

MOO

Good post.
It takes a very special kind of lawyer to become a defence lawyer. As hard as it can be to understand how someone can defend people accused of heinous acts, they play an important role. Whether we like it or not, DG has rights, and no one is going to care about upholding his rights except his own lawyer.

I am acquainted with a family whose child was charged with a very serious crime recently. Believe me, they were very glad to have a dependable criminal lawyer to defend their child.

I don't think DG is choosing to have his day in court for any other reason than because it is his right.

I can't, off the top of my head, think of any occasion in recent memory where a defendant pleaded guilty to spare anyone the difficulty of a trial. Can you?

All IMO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
  • #995
Lucie Edwardson ‏@MetroLucie 3m3 minutes ago
Sgt. Gallen said they used multiple kinds of scene markers to differentiate the diff footprints #Garland #yyc
 
  • #996
Again - the Crown doesn't need to prove intent to murder for a first degree murder conviction - if they were killed during a kidnapping or while being unlawfully confined. If they were killed at the house or the farm - it doesn't ultimately matter (if they can prove that they were kidnapped and/or being unlawfully confined).

Exactly, but trying to prove that the victims were unlawfully confined in the home as opposed to "surprising the intruder" and therefore being bludgeoned in some way in self defence is unnecessary when the Crown has the kind of evidence of pre planning and intent that they appear to have. And of course suggesting that all three were abducted/kidnapped alive and killed at another location just really solidifies it. But certainly both interpretations will work for the first degree charge.

MOO
 
  • #997
[video=twitter;822510015038619648]https://twitter.com/MetroLucie/status/822510015038619648[/video]
 
  • #998
[video=twitter;822511443396308992]https://twitter.com/MetroLucie/status/822511443396308992[/video]
 
  • #999
Lucie Edwardson ‏@MetroLucie 1m1 minute ago
Gallen said the Canadian name for this Dr. Scholls shoe is called Delta 2 (same kind picked up by Det. Budd). #Garland #yyc

Lucie Edwardson ‏@MetroLucie 2m2 minutes ago
Gallen says Dr. Scholls would have various outsoles on their shoes. In this case they're also branded differently #Garland #yyc

Lucie Edwardson ‏@MetroLucie 3m3 minutes ago
Marker 13 is in the garage of the Liknes residence. Said it was the first in the sequence in the garage. #Garland #yyc

Lucie Edwardson
‏@MetroLucie

Gallen showed a close up of footprint at marker 13, said she sent is to SICAR, who sent back a possible match= Dr. Scholls shoe #Garland
 
  • #1,000
[video=twitter;822513553798115328]https://twitter.com/MetroLucie/status/822513553798115328[/video]
 
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