CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #6

[roseofsharon]

On the day AG was murdered, from the little description we have of what she was wearing that day, it still does not seem like she was dressed up for company. Just imo.

 

[Sillybilly]

Slap me silly, "Silly" ... buying a cake! :floorlaugh:

:floorlaugh:
For that one Rose, you get to go stand in a corner

sb

 

[greenthumb]

In an earlier post, I commented that it almost seemed like AG was trying to keep her two closest friends at a distance, i.e. LV brought the soup Dec. 27, but then PK would be visiting on Dec. 30.

The point I was making was that since LV was dropping off the soup, I wondered why PK could not have dropped off the cake and still had their visit at a later date. The suspicion is with AG, not with PK about delaying the visit.

Regarding the cake ... it was a xmas present for AG. If the cake was whole and nicely displayed (as Stone described), then I would say this is a xmas present, but if it was half a cake or a slice of cake, imo, this is not a xmas present.

imo

Oh, now I understand... you're wondering why AG wouldn't have asked PK to drop it off, not why he didn't! And I have the same question about why she seemed to have wanted a space of time when she knew she would not have visitors.

And I guess I was thinking even a part of a cake might be a gift, wasn't seeing the difference... it seemed to me that, as a single lady, AG might have said, 'well don't bring me the whole cake, for heaven's sake - just bring me a bit!' But that's a good point, that a whole cake may more of a gift. Am I correct that PK mentioned that AG asked for it as a gift? Something along the lines of she was hard to buy for, and he was glad when she requested her favourite cake as a gift?

From PK's post #425 - So as early as the beginning of November, she told me she didn't want me to purchase anything for her for Christmas, but only to make this cake for her (because, as she often lamented, she was too lazy to make it herself).
Really, I am not trying to be difficult asking these questions, I just don't always follow the logic and I really appreciate you answering Thanks!

 

[greenthumb]

For a reason I'm not too clear on myself yet, I am wondering if Audrey had a cellphone. And wondering again at what kind of phone and computer records LE has reviewed in this investigation.:twocents:

For what it's worth... from PK's post #581 - Nope… no way did Aud own a cellphone

 

[roseofsharon]

:floorlaugh:
For that one Rose, you get to go stand in a corner

sb

I know sillyB, I couldn't resist that one! I did my timeout lol! :blushing:

 

[Chorley8]

SillyBilly thanks much for adding the Facebook into the timeline!

 

[greenthumb]

I saw hardened blood on the floor and that, along with the contortion of her body was what prompted me to call 911 and tell them she was dead.

from PK's post #425

This just struck me in the re-reading of PK's posts - AG's body was contorted... Also this from Post # 271 -

Regarding the sexual component, suffice it to say that it was visually obvious by observing the crime scene.

I am not sure what significance that has, except that I'd pictured that he found her laying on her back, with her eyes open but I am reminded now that she was not quite that peaceful.

Also, from his post #211 -

The dogs were confined away from the area where AG was found. Although it wasn't especially unlikely for AG to confine them away from this area during the day, I cant imagine her in this area in the middle of the night. Hopefully that isn't uselessly cryptic?

Is it just PK's assumption that AG was killed in the middle of the night or was he told that by LE?

Also, some of the things PK mentioned about helping AG clean up the house shortly before her death - Post #232 -

Although recently we spent time together tidying various rooms in her home, clearing old books, removing garbage, etc

... and that she had spoken to him often in the last year about what would happen when she was gone - Post #271 -

I believe I've mentioned before that in her last year, AG and I talked a few times about what would happen after she was gone.

- these last two bits of information, taken together, make me wonder if AG was 'finalizing' things because she knew that something was coming to an end. Whether she felt there was a threat that may force her to move from her home in the near future? Or if she had some premonition that she might die in the near future? Or maybe it was simply a very natural impulse that comes with aging, to contemplate what will happen when we've passed and to think about cleaning up our own clutter so no one else has to do it for us when we're no longer here.

 

[roseofsharon]

Oh, now I understand... you're wondering why AG wouldn't have asked PK to drop it off, not why he didn't! And I have the same question about why she seemed to have wanted a space of time when she knew she would not have visitors.

And I guess I was thinking even a part of a cake might be a gift, wasn't seeing the difference... it seemed to me that, as a single lady, AG might have said, 'well don't bring me the whole cake, for heaven's sake - just bring me a bit!' But that's a good point, that a whole cake may more of a gift. Am I correct that PK mentioned that AG asked for it as a gift? Something along the lines of she was hard to buy for, and he was glad when she requested her favourite cake as a gift?

From PK's post #425 - So as early as the beginning of November, she told me she didn't want me to purchase anything for her for Christmas, but only to make this cake for her (because, as she often lamented, she was too lazy to make it herself).
Really, I am not trying to be difficult asking these questions, I just don't always follow the logic and I really appreciate you answering Thanks!

Oh gosh GT, we're glad you're here!! I don't think you are being difficult at all. It's really great to get all the different perspectives.

Yes ... this is what I was meaning ... why AG didn't ask PK to drop off and then when she was feeling better come back for a visit.

That is my understanding too, that AG loved this particular cake and that would be a good idea for a xmas gift for her.:seeya:

 

[greenthumb]

SillyBilly thanks much for adding the Facebook into the timeline!

What a huge effort you've put into the timeline, SB! Thank you so much.

 

[greenthumb]

Oh gosh GT, we're glad you're here!! I don't think you are being difficult at all. It's really great to get all the different perspectives.

Thank you! I am not here as much as many of you, and although I try to catch up now & then, I think I 'skim' too much and miss the gist of some of the posts. :blushing: or, as usual, I just see things differently than 99% of the world

 

[roseofsharon]

from PK's post #425

This just struck me in the re-reading of PK's posts - AG's body was contorted... Also this from Post # 271 -

I am not sure what significance that has, except that I'd pictured that he found her laying on her back, with her eyes open but I am reminded now that she was not quite that peaceful.

Also, from his post #211 -

Is it just PK's assumption that AG was killed in the middle of the night or was he told that by LE?

Also, some of the things PK mentioned about helping AG clean up the house shortly before her death - Post #232 - ... and that she had spoken to him often in the last year about what would happen when she was gone - Post #271 - - these last two bits of information, taken together, make me wonder if AG was 'finalizing' things because she knew that something was coming to an end. Whether she felt there was a threat that may force her to move from her home in the near future? Or if she had some premonition that she might die in the near future? Or maybe it was simply a very natural impulse that comes with aging, to contemplate what will happen when we've passed and to think about cleaning up our own clutter so no one else has to do it for us when we're no longer here.

GT .... good catch!!!! :what: imo

 

[roseofsharon]

from PK's post #425

This just struck me in the re-reading of PK's posts - AG's body was contorted... Also this from Post # 271 -

I am not sure what significance that has, except that I'd pictured that he found her laying on her back, with her eyes open but I am reminded now that she was not quite that peaceful.

Also, from his post #211 -

Is it just PK's assumption that AG was killed in the middle of the night or was he told that by LE?

Also, some of the things PK mentioned about helping AG clean up the house shortly before her death - Post #232 - ... and that she had spoken to him often in the last year about what would happen when she was gone - Post #271 - - these last two bits of information, taken together, make me wonder if AG was 'finalizing' things because she knew that something was coming to an end. Whether she felt there was a threat that may force her to move from her home in the near future? Or if she had some premonition that she might die in the near future? Or maybe it was simply a very natural impulse that comes with aging, to contemplate what will happen when we've passed and to think about cleaning up our own clutter so no one else has to do it for us when we're no longer here.

When I was a child, I always remember hearing my grandma say "you can't put an old head on young shoulders". So .......

With no disrepect to PK's intelligence (and him being so young) and AG being much older, smarter and wiser than PK, it is so hard to believe she would have a need to discuss/confide with PK on what would happen when she was gone. If AG needed to have this conversation, why not with her beneficiary or someone around her own age.

AG knew she had a Will. Other than cleaning out her home, I wonder what she really meant by asking PK this question.

Just imo

 

[greenthumb]

When I was a child, I always remember hearing my grandma say "you can't put an old head on young shoulders". So .......

With no disrepect to PK's intelligence (and him being so young) and AG being much older, smarter and wiser than PK, it is so hard to believe she would have a need to discuss/confide with PK on what would happen when she was gone. If AG needed to have this conversation, why not with her beneficiary or someone around her own age.

AG knew she had a Will. Other than cleaning out her home, I wonder what she really meant by asking PK this question.

Just imo

Perhaps she spoke to PK specifically about how her passing would affect him? In terms of how he might cope with losing her as a mentor/friend?

It's also possible that she spoke to him about plans she was considering putting in place that would affect him? It appears that he was not a beneficiary as it turns out... but may she have been contemplating making changes to her will, perhaps?

The only other reason that I can see that she might have this type of conversation with him would be in the course of encouraging him, newly married with a responsibility now to his wife, to make his own will... and perhaps using her own wishes as a springboard to launch a discussion about the things he may want to consider himself.

JMOO

 

[Sillybilly]

Perhaps she spoke to PK specifically about how her passing would affect him? In terms of how he might cope with losing her as a mentor/friend?

It's also possible that she spoke to him about plans she was considering putting in place that would affect him? It appears that he was not a beneficiary as it turns out... but may she have been contemplating making changes to her will, perhaps?

The only other reason that I can see that she might have this type of conversation with him would be in the course of encouraging him, newly married with a responsibility now to his wife, to make his own will... and perhaps using her own wishes as a springboard to launch a discussion about the things he may want to consider himself.

JMOO

The above are all possibilities LC. The problem is we are having to speculate on what that convo may have been, when in fact I had asked PK that question directly and he did not respond.

On a slightly different note, as i was going back through some old posts, I found his response about the bench in relation to the Camaro, and he specifically states "in the entranceway":

from:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Audrey Gleave, retired teacher, viciously murdered in home, Ancaster Ontario, #2

Just some clarifications re: the bench. It spent most of its time sitting behind the Camaro in the entranceway to the garage.

 

[Sillybilly]

In reviewing that full post ^^ about the bench, it is a bit interesting that PK seems to have another visual wrt it being nighttime or the middle of the night when he says "It is certainly possible that AG would have sat out on the bench having a smoke with the garage door open and the light on".

<bbm>

 

[Sillybilly]

For whatever reason the following entry went poof in the timeline. It was the last addition i made, so maybe i didn't save after adding it. Too late to edit, so to not take up more space on the board, please pencil it in for now:

January 4 2011 Hamilton Spec quotes Detective Hrab as saying "an executor has been found"

:bedtime:
G'nite

 

[roseofsharon]

AG hadn't golfed for some time, but I was wondering if she still had her golf clubs and did she keep them in the garage and did she own a complete set and were any clubs missing.

Since LE hasn't told us the weapon for the stabbing, did AG keep her household tools in the garage, i.e. screwdrivers, awl.

I wonder if the pruning saw, found away from AG's property belonged to AG.

More thoughts.

 

[roseofsharon]

Getting back to the clothing AG was wearing when she was found, it may not help with time in any way, considering she was a night hawk.

She may have worn clothing to bed and not pj's sometimes.

Was there garbage pick up on that Thursday and how early do people put their garbage out on Indian Trail or would they do it the night before.

Unless AG had very secure garbage containers (raccoon proof), I can't imagine her putting her garbage out late at night without her dogs by her side.

imo

 

[greenthumb]

In reviewing that full post ^^ about the bench, it is a bit interesting that PK seems to have another visual wrt it being nighttime or the middle of the night when he says "It is certainly possible that AG would have sat out on the bench having a smoke with the garage door open and the light on".

<bbm>

This is interesting... I wonder if it is indicative of some actual information about the timing of AG's death... or just an assumption. PK is young yet, there may still be a lingering naive belief (simply from not being to an age yet that he's examined some of his presumptions) that 'bad things happen in the dark'. And, I think it's human instinct, to some degree, to be a bit fearful of the dark... so I suppose associating something horrible with the darkness may be somewhat instinctual.

MOO

 

[greenthumb]

Getting back to the clothing AG was wearing when she was found, it may not help with time in any way, considering she was a night hawk.

She may have worn clothing to bed and not pj's sometimes.

What do we know about what she was wearing? Sneakers and stretch pants, right? And a coat over top... is there anything else we know about?

Doesn't sound like she was 'dressed up' for a special visitor, so that may detract from the 'secret lover' scenario... but it still could fit into an expected, if not particularly welcome, guest. And if for some reason she did expect a guest after dark (which in December could be any time after 5 p.m. or before 8 a.m., I suppose) then she would be dressed in clothing, not in nightwear, regardless of the time.

Which leads me to think that PK is more likely to be right than wrong about it happening when it was dark, simply because there are more hours of darkness than light at that time of year.