CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #6

[greenthumb]

Was there garbage pick up on that Thursday and how early do people put their garbage out on Indian Trail or would they do it the night before.

Unless AG had very secure garbage containers (raccoon proof), I can't imagine her putting her garbage out late at night without her dogs by her side.

imo

I found this garbage collection schedule, but it does not go back far enough to know for sure. It appears that Indian Trail currently has garbage pick up on Fridays.

http://old.hamilton.ca/CityServices/Garbage-and-Recycling/Popups/Popup-General-August.asp?myColour=Yellow&myDay=Friday&myAddress=INDIAN TRAIL RD, ANCASTER

 

[LeftCoaster]

This is interesting... I wonder if it is indicative of some actual information about the timing of AG's death... or just an assumption. PK is young yet, there may still be a lingering naive belief (simply from not being to an age yet that he's examined some of his presumptions) that 'bad things happen in the dark'. And, I think it's human instinct, to some degree, to be a bit fearful of the dark... so I suppose associating something horrible with the darkness may be somewhat instinctual.

MOO

The concept of the neighbours' dog(s) barking wildly in the wee hours of the 29th has also, I think, embedded itself in the minds of those interested in this case. Whether or not Audrey's murder actually took place at nighttime, something happened around then. Might have been the murderer leaving, or Audrey's dogs being heard barking or whining by the neighbours' dog...or on a more sinister note, Audrey herself crying out or screaming. Dogs have amazingly acute hearing and smell.

PK could as easily as anybody else formed a visualization based on the dogs-barking-crazily-at-2:30a.m. Or yes, he could possibly be privy to time-of-death information from LE - it would make sense in his being expected to account (to LE, not WS, I might note) for every move he made between Christmas Day and the discovery of Audrey's body.

We all are aware by now that Audrey was a nighthawk - personally, I think that that might have been part of her no longer golfing or doing much in the daytime. Unless LE has indication of any odd-hours emails sent after the 27th, it strongly suggests that Audrey was either being held captive or had been killed well before PK found her (I'm thinking "hardened blood," and Jon Wells using some poetic licence - possibly on the recommend of LE - about the "dark" wide-open eyes).

The guest-Audrey-didn't-want-anybody-aware-of theory, along with the blast-from-the-past theory, are the ones I'm most persuaded by at this point.:twocents::moo:

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

This is interesting... I wonder if it is indicative of some actual information about the timing of AG's death... or just an assumption. PK is young yet, there may still be a lingering naive belief (simply from not being to an age yet that he's examined some of his presumptions) that 'bad things happen in the dark'. And, I think it's human instinct, to some degree, to be a bit fearful of the dark... so I suppose associating something horrible with the darkness may be somewhat instinctual.

MOO

Now this is interesting for me! This past Tuesday, 12th February was Bell's 'Shed A Light On Mental Illness Day' (I might have the name of the day slightly wrong).:blushing:

On that day, CAMH and other facilities released a study which said that indeed, bad things/activities/intentions/negative behaviours DO tend to happen in the darkened hours.

:twocents:

 

[greenthumb]

Now this is interesting for me! This past Tuesday, 12th February was Bell's 'Shed A Light On Mental Illness Day' (I might have the name of the day slightly wrong).:blushing:

On that day, CAMH and other facilities released a study which said that indeed, bad things/activities/intentions/negative behaviours DO tend to happen in the darkened hours.

:twocents:

That is interesting! Gosh, now I have to go back to being scared of the dark? Do you know how many kids I've apparently lied to? :floorlaugh:

 

[Woodland]

I've wondered about the 'night hawk' label for AG a few times - she had coffee every Wednesday am with retired teachers and reportedly had coffee with LV every Sunday at 9:30 am.

Visits with the vet could have been anytime considering they were friends, but if she brought the dogs for a run during those visits, I'm thinking daytime so she could see them.

Shopping and driving her sporty car? Daytime?

Imo, not getting out in the evening much, didn't make her a night owl. Who was the first person to say that?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Woodland - I don't really remember but I also am having difficulties with that label.

Something tells me that one of the 'Amazing Grace' vids was sent at 4 am but I'm not certain.

:twocents:

 

[LeftCoaster]

I've wondered about the 'night hawk' label for AG a few times - she had coffee every Wednesday am with retired teachers and reportedly had coffee with LV every Sunday at 9:30 am.

Visits with the vet could have been anytime considering they were friends, but if she brought the dogs for a run during those visits, I'm thinking daytime so she could see them.

Shopping and driving her sporty car? Daytime?

Imo, not getting out in the evening much, didn't make her a night owl. Who was the first person to say that?

The first indication of that may have been from LV - still checking for that. For now, though, I think Jon Wells established it in his September 19, 2011 installment:

Audrey Gleave emailed these Crabby Road comics to a friend at 4 o'clock one morning.

(NSU, this might be what you recall as saying the Amazing Grace video was emailed at 4 a.m. I think this would have been from JH, the computer course classmate.)

“She was a very smart person,” said [RP], who sat at the card table with Audrey many times. “She built her own TV and was a computer whiz. I understand she was up all night on the computer, probably played bridge on it, too. And then she slept most of the day. In many ways, she was a bit strange. But a lovely person, a very private person.”

<bbm> I know many elderly people who, in the absence of structured time schedules, are awake for a few hours, then nap, then wake again. Who's to say the 9:30 coffees actually weren't her 'nightcap' before retiring for the day?

Into her late 60s and early 70s, she stopped playing competitive bridge. Her bridge mates wondered if she preferred playing alone on her computer, given her odd sleeping hours. And bridge perhaps no longer fit with other enthusiasms, which included Sudoku, sketching, handwriting analysis and her big-screen TVs.

Back to whether Audrey's online life could hold valuable clues. Not to mention, I wonder how extensively the "many" golfing buddies and bridge-mates were interviewed by JW for those articles.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

OR......maybe Audrey went to bed very early and woke up early? Perhaps 4 am was her waking time?

:twocents:

 

[LeftCoaster]

OR......maybe Audrey went to bed very early and woke up early? Perhaps 4 am was her waking time?

:twocents:

:countsheep: Totally possible, NSU! :sleuth:

 

[dotr]

Long distance relationships could alter the hours one usually keeps to accommodate for time differences and/or work schedules...

 

[greenthumb]

I have a question

PK was originally scheduled to arrive at Audrey's at 10:00 am. He says it is a 1/2 hour drive from AK's work to Audrey's, so AK must have been scheduled to arrive at work sometime around 9:30ish. If AK was on time for work that morning, what was PK doing for the hour between dropping her at work and his arrival at Audrey's?

I am just re-reading the excerpts from Jon Well's book online... it says "fog hung in the darkness over the snow covered ground. Then it turned to freezing fog which... occurs when water droplets supercool and freeze on contact with a surface. Later that morning it rained."

I wish I could recall if the roads were icy that morning... sounds like that is a possibility, and that may account for the extra time it took for PK to arrive at AG's. That would fit with PK saying that he was running late and tried to call her.

Just my :twocents:

 

[greenthumb]

It's funny how you can read something time and again, and pick up on different details each time... I recall there has been discussion about how PK could on the one hand wonder if AG had slipped on ice, and on the other hand, refer to her body as contorted and say that sexual assault was obvious.

This detail from JW's book may address that - "That's when he saw her, he said, on the garage floor, lying on her back. Had Audrey slipped and fallen on some ice, he wondered? Up close, he saw that was not the case."

This excerpt also suggests that wherever PK entered into the garage, he was at some distance from, though still in line of sight of, the body. It makes most sense to me that the door that the opener would raise would be the one closest to the house, and that that would be where AG parked the Camaro... and IIRC, the pic of the car being removed by LE showed it coming out of that door? I cannot find that pic at the moment, can anyone confirm?

I am just trying to picture where PK might be entering and where AG's body might be laying that would be some distance from his entry point... perhaps she was right up by the door into the house... but do we know if that was toward the front, back or middle of the length of the garage?

 

[roseofsharon]

I can't load the picture, but A's car looks like it is being taken away from the right hand garage.

In another pic, a LE officer is standing outside the garage, looking into the left hand garage closest to the house.

imo

 

[Hazel]

In reviewing that full post ^^ about the bench, it is a bit interesting that PK seems to have another visual wrt it being nighttime or the middle of the night when he says "It is certainly possible that AG would have sat out on the bench having a smoke with the garage door open and the light on".

<bbm>

PK was answering to my question on post #244, which was a couple of posts above his.
As an aside, to me it would make more sense to just open one of the doors we see on the back of the house, turn on porch light, than opening the garage doors to have a smoke. That area must be so dark at night, I find it hard to believe Audrey would open the garage door to sit there all alone, but that's just my opinon :moo:

PK:
5) The bench was where it always lived ... right behind the Camaro in the garage.

Hazel's post #244 ( link )
Thanks so much PK for all your help. So that's where the bench was, no wonder we couldn't see it in any of the pictures.

I'll like to add a question about the bench as well: Did AG use to sit on the bench to smoke a cigarette, with the lights on, and garage door open?

I noticed in one of the screenshots from the videos, that the garage has a window. If it was dark outside, and the garage lights were "on", AG wouldn't even notice if someone was peeking through it to make sure she was alone (no dogs) and distracted. Problem is in that case, the perp would have arrived with no car, so that might not have been the case.

PK's post #247 ( link )

Hey all,

Just some clarifications re: the bench. It spent most of its time sitting behind the Camaro in the entranceway to the garage. AG would spend lots of time sitting on the bench having a smoke or watching the dogs run or just surveying the property. AG virtually never allowed anyone in her home. From what I've heard, I'm actually the only one who spent extensive social time inside. Yes, LE took the bench.

It is certainly possible that AG would have sat out on the bench having a smoke with the garage door open and the light on, however, AG rarely spent time outside by herself. If she wasn't expecting a visitor she almost certainly would have let the dogs out for a run if she was sitting outside. If AG was inside and not intending to go out, the garage door would be closed.

 

[Hazel]

Re: Amazing Grace
------------------------------------

While I was checking those links above ^^ , saw my post where I found that rendition of Amazing Grace, on a Forum, and am still thinking if perhaps Audrey got the link from that forum.
Could she have been a member of that forum? :what: (except that we never heard that Audrey was a Baptist, right?)

But that forum's post being made Dec. 25, 2010 makes me wonder.

post #245 ( link )

 

[Hazel]

Also, from his post #211 -

Is it just PK's assumption that AG was killed in the middle of the night or was he told that by LE?

PK's post #211 ( link )

The dogs were confined away from the area where AG was found. Although it wasn't especially unlikely for AG to confine them away from this area during the day, I cant imagine her in this area in the middle of the night. Hopefully that isn't uselessly cryptic?

RSBM

So glad to see you back here greenthumb, and :thumb: thumbs up (no pun intended) to your posts.

Thanks for bringing this up greenthunmb. That is from one of PK's first posts, and at the time I found it too cryptic, but now that we were told the 'area' was the garage, I believe I'm 'getting' what he was trying to say.

So this is just my interpretation (which I know is different from yours and others):
AG was found in an area were she would normally NOT be in the middle of the night alone without her dogs.
This could mean :

• she was not alone when she went there in the middle of the night OR
• it was not the middle of the night

Does that make any sense?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

From GT's post above:

<<< This detail from JW's book may address that - "That's when he saw her, he said, on the garage floor, lying on her back. Had Audrey slipped and fallen on some ice, he wondered? Up close, he saw that was not the case." >>>



I've been thinking this over and I've got some questions ( maybe they've been already answered; if so forgive me please):

- was Audrey's head right at the garage door and were her feet all the way inside the garage beside the car?

- if her body was "lying on her back" HOW was the body also contorted?

- "on her back" cannot mean she was 'contorted' sideways

- when PK first saw the Audrey, how far away was he from the body?

- someone (a writer I believe) wrote that Audrey's body was "prone" but I'm now wondering if the 'contortion' was that her legs/knees were raised/bent?

In our case, when we first hit the code to open our double garage, I'm sort of blinded by the daylight. Could this have been PK's problem? Maybe he didn't really understand what he was looking at until further examination. I can easily see how this could be, especially if the surrounding area was covered in bright, white snow.

Thoughts......comments?

 

[greenthumb]

RSBM

So glad to see you back here greenthumb, and :thumb: thumbs up (no pun intended) to your posts.

Thanks for bringing this up greenthunmb. That is from one of PK's first posts, and at the time I found it too cryptic, but now that we were told the 'area' was the garage, I believe I'm 'getting' what he was trying to say.

So this is just my interpretation (which I know is different from yours and others):
AG was found in an area were she would normally NOT be in the middle of the night alone without her dogs.
This could mean :

• she was not alone when she went there in the middle of the night OR
• it was not the middle of the night

Does that make any sense?

Hmmm... aren't words just so inefficient sometimes? Because they are always open to interpretation, and we can never know exactly what the writer/speaker intended. Believe me, I've been married for along time (& quite happily so!) and that has taught me much about how what I mean to say and what is heard can be two wildly different things!!! :floorlaugh:

So, yes, I can see how you are reading that... whereas I read it that something made her go outside of her normal routine, and go into the garage in the middle of the night when normally she would not.

I'll have to think on your interpretation more, thanks.

And thanks for the 'welcome back' - I am sporadic in my visits here, as time permits, but consistent in my wish for justice for AG, nevertheless. So many of you have diligently and faithfully stuck with this case, with so little to go on, and kudos go to all of you for that!

 

[greenthumb]

From GT's post above:

<<< This detail from JW's book may address that - "That's when he saw her, he said, on the garage floor, lying on her back. Had Audrey slipped and fallen on some ice, he wondered? Up close, he saw that was not the case." >>>



I've been thinking this over and I've got some questions ( maybe they've been already answered; if so forgive me please):

- was Audrey's head right at the garage door and were her feet all the way inside the garage beside the car?

- if her body was "lying on her back" HOW was the body also contorted?

- "on her back" cannot mean she was 'contorted' sideways

- when PK first saw the Audrey, how far away was he from the body?

- someone (a writer I believe) wrote that Audrey's body was "prone" but I'm now wondering if the 'contortion' was that her legs/knees were raised/bent?

In our case, when we first hit the code to open our double garage, I'm sort of blinded by the daylight. Could this have been PK's problem? Maybe he didn't really understand what he was looking at until further examination. I can easily see how this could be, especially if the surrounding area was covered in bright, white snow.

Thoughts......comments?

All good questions, and it would be so helpful to work thru this stuff to get a mental 'visual' of the scene, IMO. No doubt many of you have tried to do this many times before, and if so, please forgive the duplication.

From the wording 'when he got up close', I take it that AG was not close to the overhead garage door when PK opened it. I had been picturing that the door into the house must have been along the side wall of the garage - but it now occurs to me that the house could have been configured in such a way that there was a connecting door from the rear of the garage into the house (into a mudroom? or the kitchen?). If so, and if AG was near to that connecting door, she may have been the whole length of the garage away from PK where he entered the garage. Has anyone come across information about where the connecting door was located?

From the wording 'slipped and fallen on the ice' - this brings me back to the question of were the roads/driveway icy that morning and is that why 'ice' was utmost on PK's mind at that moment, had he been already thinking as he was driving on icy roads that he hoped Aud didn't go outside that morning, because it was so slippery and she may fall? So that when he saw her lying down there, that was the first thing that came to mind?

I'm confused re: the contortion, too, since she was apparently lying on her back. Might you use that word if her body was out of a 'normal' position due to one or more of her limbs being bent under her, in a position such that it was obviously broken?

And that moment of 'blindness' walking into a dark(er) garage from outdoors may very well account for some of PK's initial confusion about what had happened... especially if it was one of those icy, sparkling, sunny mornings that are so beautiful in deep winter in Ontario... when the sun reflects off every surface. I think someone here had info posted about the weather that day somewhere, anyone know where? Thanks.

 

[greenthumb]

Ok, maybe this is 'way out there' but I've been wondering about AG's alias 'Baryon'... why might she have chosen that?

The definition of a baryon is "a composite subatomic particle made up of three quarks".

Do you suppose that AG identified with this because she was made up of three identities? We know that she changed her name in her early years - so we know of two identities (unless I have forgotten about another that others here have discovered?) Do we know of a third?

I'm back to that 'mystery' that I feel was part of AG's life - we know she was mysterious even to her last husband, who did not know she had been married previously, that she had changed her name, etc. And that she was very protective of her 'real' name, not wanting it used online, in emails, etc. So... might there be another 'identity' that we don't know about?