CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #7

[greenthumb]

Just popping in on this thread, but I'm really surprised that PK is being dragged in again. AG was the victim of a sexual assault. LE does have forensic evidence in this case. DNA is an innocent persons best friend. If LE's forensic evidence doesn't match up with a POI, then I don't think they can be considered a POI anymore, regardless if he's still considering himself one. I think it could be natural paranoia-I can't imagine being an innocent person, who has lost a friend under such scrutiny and LE interrogation. The fact is that someone matches the DNA they found on the scene and that someone is still out there and we know it's not PK. Trying to figure out all sorts of reasons why the DNA didn't match a POI creates tunnel vision and is really a waste of time. The forensic evidence is a match to someone. JMHO

IMO, just like TB, AG had a car that someone wanted. A car that would loose it's value greatly if it was hot wired-the keys were needed. If the perpetrator(s) had anger issues or were power trippers and this older woman was not listening or providing the keys, I can see how AG could have been so victimized. There's a possibility that even if AG had handed over the keys she would have still been murdered. But that's just MOO

I agree 100%, MsSherlock! and thank you, you've stated quite clearly what I've tried to communicate here recently. Rehashing of the same information will only produce the same result - which to date is no arrest. Whereas exploring other possibilities might lead to new information!

And for me personally, if I am to err, it will be on the side of caution - lest I be part of adding to the burden on a young man who, if innocent, suffered the terrible shock of finding a close friend brutally murdered and wound up in the middle of a nightmare, with not only LE but online strangers dissecting everything from the nature of his relationship to AG to his mannerisms. If some day PK is found guilty of AG's murder, then all it will mean is that I've been wrong. I can live with that - the alternative, not so much.

JMO

 

[MsSherlock]

I agree 100%, MsSherlock! and thank you, you've stated quite clearly what I've tried to communicate here recently. Rehashing of the same information will only produce the same result - which to date is no arrest. Whereas exploring other possibilities might lead to new information!

And for me personally, if I am to err, it will be on the side of caution - lest I be part of adding to the burden on a young man who, if innocent, suffered the terrible shock of finding a close friend brutally murdered and wound up in the middle of a nightmare, with not only LE but online strangers dissecting everything from the nature of his relationship to AG to his mannerisms. If some day PK is found guilty of AG's murder, then all it will mean is that I've been wrong. I can live with that - the alternative, not so much.

JMO

Thanks Green. I think it's important to have faith in LE highly trained forensic investigators in matters like this. Unlike crimes from 20 or 30 years ago, DNA offers LE's certainty. DNA has seen the release of many people who have had their lives ripped away from them because of wrongful convictions, but they never really get away from the prying eyes of the public-for heavens sake, people still believe that David Milgaard is guilty even though the DNA evidence proved he wasn't! The loss of life by murder is bad enough, but the ruining of an innocent persons life because of wrongful conviction is just as horrific-because that person never truly receives exoneration. It could happen to any of us-wrong place, wrong time. Knowing the victim. Being nice to or working with the victim. That's why WS is such a fantastic forum-it really encourages justice and the tracking down of the true perpetrator. AG was murdered-we should be sleuthing reasons, facts, evidence that's been uncovered and as many motives as possible to get the person(s) who will win the "match game" with the forensic evidence LE has. If LE had it-this wouldn't be a discussion topic right now.

 

[2soccermom]

I agree. What if any of us were to discover a friend murdered? Is there only ONE correct way to act? Trauma theorists explain that a "flat affect" can be a psychological coping mechanism in the experience of reality too painful to confront directly.

I rely on sites like WS and UC for information and a sense of community working for justice for the missing and murdered. But I also think, as many internet scholars address in relation to online posting generally, that "anonymous" online forums like these make it easy to say things about real-life people without fully considering the implications for those people and their families.

PK has never been publicly named a POI by LE.

MOO.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Welcome FromGermany. Your English is just fine. Please, no worries!!

You have expressed my own feelings very well. For that, I say 'thank you'.

QUESTION FOR EVERYONE:

In any criminal case, do LE announce publicly that so-and-so is a POI? Memory is alluding me right now. But do LE come right out and say 'We're seriously looking at Joe Schmoe as the killer/rapist/thief/whatever'?

I'm asking this because it seems to me that in so doing it might not be in LE's best interests to publicly name a POI. Don't they want the perp to mess up, do something rash, etc?

:twocents:

----------------------------

ETA:

Quoted from MsSherlock:

<<< Unlike crimes from 20 or 30 years ago, DNA offers LE's certainty. >>>

Indeed, that's true. And that's PK's biggest problem, I think. His DNA will be all over AG's house and property. He was there a lot.

LE have said there "was a sexual component". We do NOT know if that involves semen. If there had been semen, PK might be off the hook right now. But he isn't off the hook because his DNA will be present.

I know Guy-Paul Morin who was wrongly accused and I'm well aware of people being unjustly accused/jailed/lives lost/etc. Thank God, Mr. Morin is now free and living a happy life. I also thank God that we don't have the death penalty in Canada. In my opinion, that's just plain wrong.

PK is still on (some people's) the radar. We cannot apologise for having that opinion.

:twocents:

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Quoted from GT:

<<< Rehashing of the same information will only produce the same result - which to date is no arrest. Whereas exploring other possibilities might lead to new information! >>>



I agree completely. But what 'new direction' do we have to go on? For a bit I was thinking this was tied in with the TB case. Now, I'm not so certain. Wouldn't LE have told the public that they are looking at the TB killer for Audrey's case? LE did tie the TB case to the missing young woman who had contact with the TB killer.

Please, let's go in a 'new direction'. How about looking at motive?

:websleuther:

 

[MsSherlock]

On Jan 1, 2011, Staff Sergeant Hrab said: &#8220;In the last 10 years I can&#8217;t think of one more vicious,&#8221; he said, later adding that the case stands out in the top 1 per cent." http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2182849-police-investigating-ancaster-area-homicide/
I think if he was on the TB case today, he may be saying the same thing.

 

[MsSherlock]

Quoted from GT:

<<< Rehashing of the same information will only produce the same result - which to date is no arrest. Whereas exploring other possibilities might lead to new information! >>>



I agree completely. But what 'new direction' do we have to go on? For a bit I was thinking this was tied in with the TB case. Now, I'm not so certain. Wouldn't LE have told the public that they are looking at the TB killer for Audrey's case? LE did tie the TB case to the missing young woman who had contact with the TB killer.

Please, let's go in a 'new direction'. How about looking at motive?

:websleuther:

Motive? I think it was all about her Camero. The neighbors dogs were barking at 2:30 in the morning. There might have been an attempt at stealing the car the night before IMO, the thief or thieves may have heard AG's dogs growling inside, the neighbors dogs barking...or anything and were spooked. AG's dogs growling could have been enough to set off the neighbors dogs, but Audrey may have settled her dogs down. Very early the next morning, Audrey got some visitors who were interesting in perhaps taking pictures of her car on their way to work or something- she put the dogs in the house as not to intimidate her visitors. Perhaps at that point they closed the garage door and demanded the keys or did something to get AG upset with them enough she started yelling at them- that tripped a psychotic episode in one of them resulting in her brutal murder. Crime writer, Lee Mellor provides a lot of detail and his profile of the murderer(s) http://mellortalksmurder.blogspot.ca/2011/10/audrey-gleave-deadly-premonitions.html MOO

 

[Pink Panther]

1. Obviously PK had many reasons feeling used and hurting his pride.
2. He knows AG already since he had been youth; a sexual aspect is possible I think. - Perhaps he has a problem with his mother too?
3. The unfairly inheritance in future had been most important to PK I think.
4. PK had always suspious behavior already while discovering AG. An old "friend" never reacts without emotions like him.
5. Interviewing him after funeral services he "every 3 seconds" said YOU KNOW to get time thinking of next half true falsehood (just like Jodi Arias during statements full of lies).
5. PK's eyes are looking insincere; his facial impression doesn't fit to honest and intelligent persons. BTW: AK's expression looks same too.
6. PK's delivery of 1 Christstollen and several calls and so on ... turns away from much more important things and it looks like PK's intention. Something is wrong around this.
All MOO and sorry for my English learned 55 years ago.

Welcome FromGermany! Could you elaborate a little more on #6. and what your thinking is there???

 

[Pink Panther]

I think the whole DNA thing is a bit of a red herring. Do we actually know that they have DNA to begin with? If so, do we know in what form? DNA does not necessarily mean blood or semen. If they had that then, it would most likely have either ruled out or inculpated PK. He has not been cleared. It's most likely then that the DNA they have is of another form. In that case, it could match PK and they still would not be able to conclude his guilt as he found AG and could have easily transferred his DNA in the process of taking her pulse.

moo

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Pink Panther brings up a great point about whether or NOT LE has DNA in this case. I mean......DNA from the killer. Obviously, there will be DNA around the crime scene. However, I don't recall LE saying to MSM that they actually do have the killer's DNA.

Am I just making this up as I go along? Does someone have a link where LE actually says they do have DNA?

I seem to recall something about DNA when LE wrongly hauled in DLS. But I forget in what context the DNA was talked about there.

:blushing:

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

On Jan 1, 2011, Staff Sergeant Hrab said: “In the last 10 years I can’t think of one more vicious,” he said, later adding that the case stands out in the top 1 per cent." http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2182849-police-investigating-ancaster-area-homicide/
I think if he was on the TB case today, he may be saying the same thing.

Would you please be kind enough to clarify here - are you saying that it was Hrab's habit/style to tell the media that all of his crime scenes were horrific/vicious/the worst of his entire career?

Thanks......

 

[MsSherlock]

Would you please be kind enough to clarify here - are you saying that it was Hrab's habit/style to tell the media that all of his crime scenes were horrific/vicious/the worst of his entire career?

Thanks......

No problem No Stone...I was drawing a similarity between the AG case and the recent TB case. LE are on record with both of them saying these cases were horrific. Wasn't saying it was Hrab's style-that's simply what he was quoted as saying in MSM. In concern to the TB case a source within LE said “How his body was disposed of would make the hair on the back of anyone’s neck curl up.” http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/16/tim-bosmas-murder-may-have-been-thrill-kill-source

IMHO, with both of these murders the indignity to the victim continued even after death, making these much more horrific, even to seasoned LE like Hrab and Kavanagh.

 

[Woodland]

Is there a link that says LE has DNA? If not, it's only speculation and should have an imo tagged with any post that includes anything to do with forensic evidence.

The last article posted with a quote from the new lead investigator states they are back to square one and no one has been ruled out.

Unfortunately that's where we are.

 

[greenthumb]

QUESTION FOR EVERYONE:

In any criminal case, do LE announce publicly that so-and-so is a POI? Memory is alluding me right now. But do LE come right out and say 'We're seriously looking at Joe Schmoe as the killer/rapist/thief/whatever'?

RSBM

Yes... some examples (with no particular relevance to this case) -

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/person-of-interest-identified-in-ontario-homicides/article689870/

A man wanted in the slaying of a Windsor bartender is now a person of interest in the shooting deaths of two people in their rural home, police said.

A person of interest is not a suspect.

http://www.owensoundsuntimes.com/2012/06/20/opp-piecing-together-murdered-couples-last-days

According to sources contacted by officers involved in the investigation and who have spoken with QMI on condition of anonymity, 48-year-old Adam Rogers of Barrie was a "person of interest" in the case.

http://www.canada.com/story_print.html?id=7415c972-f916-44d9-a5b3-bc015864c769&sponsor=

Police say her mother is a person of interest.

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_west_valley/glendale/police-name-person-of-interest-in-glendale-homicide

Detectives have named Jacob Lee Medina, 28, of Glendale as a person of interest in the death...

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/police-name-person-of-interest-in-huron-st-homicide-1.529575

Det. Scott Whittemore of the service's homicide squad told CTV News on Tuesday that Fashar Badakhshad, 27, is currently their only person of interest.

http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/after-29-years-person-of-interest-named-in-kidnapping-of-kevin-collins

Police stopped short of calling him a suspect, and instead said he was a "person of interest."

 

[greenthumb]

Pink Panther brings up a great point about whether or NOT LE has DNA in this case. I mean......DNA from the killer. Obviously, there will be DNA around the crime scene. However, I don't recall LE saying to MSM that they actually do have the killer's DNA.

Am I just making this up as I go along? Does someone have a link where LE actually says they do have DNA?

I seem to recall something about DNA when LE wrongly hauled in DLS. But I forget in what context the DNA was talked about there.

:blushing:

Yes, NSU, it was in MSM when DLS was released that there was 'forensic evidence'... here -

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/charges-withdrawn-in-audrey-gleave-murder-case-1.652837

According to police, a review of forensic evidence led to the charges being dropped, and Scott was released from custody on Friday.

and here -

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2205722-anxiety-returns-as-murderer-still-on-the-loose/

Police had believed results from forensic tests coming in as early as Thursday would solidify the case, but they did not match Scott.

BBM

So then, what is forensic evidence?

http://definitions.uslegal.com/f/forensic-evidence/

Forensic evidence is evidence obtained by scientific methods such as ballistics, blood test, and DNA test and used in court.

and here - http://thelawdictionary.org/forensic-evidence/

What is FORENSIC EVIDENCE?
Evidence that can be used in a court based on science. It can be blood tests, ballistics, and DNA.

BBM

Presumably ballistics does not play a role in this case. If LE has blood, then I think it follows that they must have DNA... doesn't it?

 

[greenthumb]

I think the whole DNA thing is a bit of a red herring. Do we actually know that they have DNA to begin with? If so, do we know in what form? DNA does not necessarily mean blood or semen. If they had that then, it would most likely have either ruled out or inculpated PK. He has not been cleared. It's most likely then that the DNA they have is of another form. In that case, it could match PK and they still would not be able to conclude his guilt as he found AG and could have easily transferred his DNA in the process of taking her pulse.

moo

BBM

Do you have a link indicating that PK has not been cleared? Or is that your opinion only?

LE did not identify him as a suspect or POI - so it follows that they would not announce if/when he was cleared, IMO.

 

[Woodland]

Unfortunately greenthumb, the wording on DNA for this case from LE is ambiguous especially in light of the comment from the lawyer for DLS at the time of his release - he said 'they don't have DNA.'

LE has not said what they have in the way of forensic evidence - or definitively that they have evidence to test to identify an individual.

 

[greenthumb]

Unfortunately greenthumb, the wording on DNA for this case from LE is ambiguous especially in light of the comment from the lawyer for DLS at the time of his release - he said 'they don't have DNA.'

LE has not said what they have in the way of forensic evidence - or definitively that they have evidence to test to identify an individual.

Yes, I am aware that DLS's lawyer made that statement... but defense lawyers make lots of statements, not all necessarily based in fact... plying for public sympathy and portraying the case against their client as unfounded is all part of their job. MOO

And there was a 4 month period of time (from Feb 10 to June 3, 2011) when DLS was in custody while LE waited for results of forensic testing, according to the articles I posted previously. And the statements in those articles indicating that

Police had believed results from forensic tests coming in as early as Thursday would solidify the case, but they did not match Scott.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/22...-on-the-loose/

If something does not exist, it cannot 'not match'. From that, I take that forensic evidence does exist - as stated in MSM.

 

[Woodland]

I find it easy to interpret 'results from forensic tests ... would solidify the case' to possibly mean no results were obtained.

Attached is an article from The Spec dated 21 Sept 2011 -

Terri-Lynn Collings, a spokesperson for Hamilton Police, said officers will not comment on the case because the investigation is ongoing. She did say that &#8220;no one has been ruled out as a suspect.&#8221;

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2123220-audrey-s-case-gets-colder/

 

[Pink Panther]

They don't have to have blood or semen to have dna evidence. They could have hair, saliva, etc... If they have blood or semen, it would be likely that the individual was involved in the murder. If they have hair, skin cells, etc...It's a different matter.

moo