Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11

[deugirtni]

Thinking about how the murderer(s) accessed the home...
Is it possible that someone posing to be an interested party, went through the home (with a realtor) sometime close to the time of the murders, and unlocked that basement door? It would not have tripped any alarms or anything, just to have been unlocked and still shut.
If someone is inside the home and moving about, it would mean the home security system would have been disarmed, correct? So.. if the murderer knew that the basement door was already unlocked, he'd only have to wait until someone was inside the home, before gaining entry via that door.
Then.. just hide away in the basement somewhere until only the couple were home.
Maybe bring a backpack with some food/beverages to last awhile?
Obviously the cleaning staff did not access the basement on a regular basis, otherwise the bodies would have been found by the cleaning/gardener people!

 

[human]

Thinking about how the murderer(s) accessed the home...
Is it possible that someone posing to be an interested party, went through the home (with a realtor) sometime close to the time of the murders, and unlocked that basement door? It would not have tripped any alarms or anything, just to have been unlocked and still shut.
If someone is inside the home and moving about, it would mean the home security system would have been disarmed, correct? So.. if the murderer knew that the basement door was already unlocked, he'd only have to wait until someone was inside the home, before gaining entry via that door.
Then.. just hide away in the basement somewhere until only the couple were home.
Maybe bring a backpack with some food/beverages to last awhile?
Obviously the cleaning staff did not access the basement on a regular basis, otherwise the bodies would have been found by the cleaning/gardener people!

I think to be able to view the home, people would have to have ID. At least where I lived in MN, expensive home viewing was not available to just anyone

 

[MistyWaters]

I think to be able to view the home, people would have to have ID. At least where I lived in MN, expensive home viewing was not available to just anyone

If so, fake ID would be very easy to get past a realtor because they have no way of verifying authenticity.

A preview, preplanning of the crime scene through a viewing by an unsuspecting realtor (who’s role is not home security) totally unbeknown to the victims - unfortunately I think would be a killers dream come true IMO.

 

[ldlager]

Here is what I believe to be that exterior entrance/exit from the basement, and the link it came from:

View attachment 173651

Sherman family wants to demolish home where billionaire couple found dead

Thank you Deugirtni, excellent sleuthing!

 

[deugirtni]

I think to be able to view the home, people would have to have ID. At least where I lived in MN, expensive home viewing was not available to just anyone

It's been awhile since I was involved in RE, so maybe it's changed over the past few years. I know that some agents would vet clients first, and get them to sign contracts before they'd be willing to show them anything at all. Others, not so much, perhaps newer agents, or old-timers who couldn't get used to the whole 'buyer agency' thing. Not sure if there is any requirement here to show ID before being shown an upscale home, and perhaps especially if an open house is held. I'm not sure if an open house was ever held, and if so, whether it was an 'agent-only' open house or a public open house... all I know is that there *was* an ad for an open house at the beginning.

What if the killer may have even had a friend who was in real estate, and asked his realtor friend to take him through? Without the realtor friend knowing of course, that his friend was a killer, etc.?

In thinking about it.. if one has an alarm system in their home, even when it is unarmed, those little monitor thingies will make a noise if someone moves across its line of 'vision' (not vision, but I don't know what it is).. but if two people were home at the time, and each may not have known where exactly the other was, it's possible the little beep wouldn't have alerted them to anything out of the ordinary - each could have thought it was just the other one moving about somewhere in the expansive home? Or perhaps theirs didn't beep. Or maybe it wasn't operational. We really know so little!

 

[Tighthead]

FINTRAC requirements are much more onerous now. I think once an agency relationship is created, ID verification is required.

 

[human]

I think anyone who had been in the home with a realtor has been looked at.

 

[PostTruth]

Warmington said in a National Post audio interview that he thinks there's a good chance there'll be an arrest this year. Does anyone know if he (or anyone else) wrote a follow-up to that? It's quite the statement on his part, especially as a reporter who's been following the case closely. That and and Saunders' quasi-slip about the suspects "watching" seem to suggest TPS is narrowing-in but perhaps don't have some key missing pieces.

 

[MistyWaters]

FINTRAC requirements are much more onerous now. I think once an agency relationship is created, ID verification is required.

Would FINTRAC apply prior to an offer?

I don’t think so because a realtor does not negotiate a contract with a client in order to show property listed for sale. Money cannot be laundered at the viewing stage, nor is a client requesting viewings committing to buy anything at that point.

 

[MistyWaters]

Warmington said in a National Post audio interview that he thinks there's a good chance there'll be an arrest this year. Does anyone know if he (or anyone else) wrote a follow-up to that? It's quite the statement on his part, especially as a reporter who's been following the case closely. That and and Saunders' quasi-slip about the suspects "watching" seem to suggest TPS is narrowing-in but perhaps don't have some key missing pieces.

Nope, no followup that I’m aware of but I thought it was a interestingly optimistic podcast. March is half over so there’s still 10 1/2 months in 2019 to go, if he’s right in his bold prediction. I agree with you and I too would be very surprised if he was just talking through his hat.

 

[human]

Time is money so I don’t think realtors show expensive houses to just anyone, do they?

 

[MistyWaters]

Time is money so I don’t think realtors show expensive houses to just anyone, do they?

JMO but anyone diabolical enough to murder this billionaire couple has the ability to offer a justifiable albeit fabricated reason to convince a realtor of a reason to view that home. This murderer is anything but a typical honest, genuine, upstanding individual.

Aside from an opportunity to case out the place or even plant IT devices, there’s another reason it would be advantageous for the killer to have scheduled a real estate viewing, maybe not even concealing their true identity at all. Because IF LE has other reasons to suspect them, that prior viewing would offer an alternate explanation for why their DNA or fingerprints were found in the home.

 

[JDG]

AFAIK, anyone can visit a house that is for sale. Just call a realtor and ask them for a showing. No need for ID in the TO area to view a home.

 

[ldlager]

I think anyone who had been in the home with a realtor has been looked at.

Unless of course their realtor failed to do this..............

 

[ldlager]

Nope, no followup that I’m aware of but I thought it was a interestingly optimistic podcast. March is half over so there’s still 10 1/2 months in 2019 to go, if he’s right in his bold prediction. I agree with you and I too would be very surprised if he was just talking through his hat.

I don't think he had/has any real idea if an arrest would or would not be made this year. I have seen pictures of him wearing a hat, so it doesn't surprise me.....

 

[ldlager]

JMO but anyone diabolical enough to murder this billionaire couple has the ability to offer a justifiable albeit fabricated reason to convince a realtor of a reason to view that home. This murderer is anything but a typical honest, genuine, upstanding individual.

Aside from an opportunity to case out the place or even plant IT devices, there’s another reason it would be advantageous for the killer to have scheduled a real estate viewing, maybe not even concealing their true identity at all. Because IF LE has other reasons to suspect them, that prior viewing would offer an alternate explanation for why their DNA or fingerprints were found in the home.

I personally doubt that the killers went through the house as a prospective purchaser. That would expose them to being detected, as LE would obviously look into who toured the house (at least I sure hope they did). The floorplans and photos of the house were available online anyways. In addition, if the killers just waited outside for Honey to arrive, once they secured her inside the house they would have had ample time to disable cameras (if any), understand the layout of the house, etc. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I personally doubt that the killers went through the house as a prospective purchaser. That would expose them to being detected, as LE would obviously look into who toured the house (at least I sure hope they did). The floorplans and photos of the house were available online anyways. In addition, if the killers just waited outside for Honey to arrive, once they secured her inside the house they would have had ample time to disable cameras (if any), understand the layout of the house, etc. JMO

Just curious, how do you think a killer touring a home as a prospective purchaser exposes him to being detected? Without other evidence, viewing the home of people who later became crime victims is not cause for suspicion.

I see it the other way - it could also serve as a protective shield as it accounts for DNA or fingerprints left at the scene and makes it more difficult to prosecute. For example, were any traces of DNA/fingerprints found in the home a result from a real estate viewing or executing the murder? Reasonable doubts?

 

[ldlager]

Just curious, how do you think a killer touring a home as a prospective purchaser exposes him to being detected? Without other evidence, viewing the home of people who later became crime victims is not cause for suspicion.

I see it the other way - it could also serve as a protective shield as it accounts for DNA or fingerprints left at the scene and makes it more difficult to prosecute. For example, were any traces of DNA/fingerprints found in the home a result from a real estate viewing or executing the murder? Reasonable doubts?

Certainly if the killers had to provide ID to the agent they would face police questioning. Plus even if they didn’t have to provide ID they faced the possibility of being captured on any security cameras that the Sherman’s had in the house (we now know there probably weren’t any but the killers probably wouldnt have known that). Their face and identity would become known to LE.
I understand your point about DNA left in the house as a possible alibi, but I think these people were professionals, and didn’t need to risk exposing themselves any more than necessary. Jmo

 

[human]

I am surprised. Where I lived in MN, an expensive home could not be viewed unless one was approved to go view.

They do not want to waste tine with people merely being nosy

 

[deugirtni]

I personally doubt that the killers went through the house as a prospective purchaser. That would expose them to being detected, as LE would obviously look into who toured the house (at least I sure hope they did). The floorplans and photos of the house were available online anyways. In addition, if the killers just waited outside for Honey to arrive, once they secured her inside the house they would have had ample time to disable cameras (if any), understand the layout of the house, etc. JMO

I'm willing to bet money that TPS did *not* interview all of the people who had viewed the home with a realtor in the time before the murders. Almost a year after the murders, TPS had not yet taken fingerprints from the realtor (or his buyer-clients) who were present when the bodies were discovered. I'm not sure that has even happened to this day, nor whether he ever brought his footwear into police, and if so, whether police bothered to compare the footprints to anything, etc. If they had been so lax with this realtor and his clients, my confidence level isn't running high that they checked into other people who had viewed the home prior to that. jmo though.

This article dated: Posted: Oct 26, 2018 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: October 26, 2018

"The real estate agent confirmed that it was "at least a week or two" after police first started investigating the homicides before they reached out to him and his clients.

The agent says he was interviewed at a local police division and agreed to provide investigators with the shoes he was wearing when he was inside the Sherman home.
....
The agent said police contacted him again recently to come in for fingerprinting, but hasn't been told when or where that will happen."
Family of Barry and Honey Sherman offers reward of up to $10M for information about killings | CBC News