Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11

[WINDSOR]

If the TPS is surveilling some individual(s) who they believed committed the murders, unless they believe some citizen is in danger, they will be in no hurry to make any arrests.
****Even if TPS have enough evidence to lay charges, they will try to gain more evidence, so much evidence in fact, that the alleged perpetrator(s) will possibly plead guilty. That is what happened in the McArthur case.
**** Because Canadian Law mandates the maximum time between arrest date and trial date, there will be no reason for the TPS to make an arrest and start the clock ticking so to speak.
****The more time spent on surveillance, the greater likelihood of discovering more co-conspirators, and information on other crimes.
***** There is likely some complexity in the committing of this crime. The police will want to have all the loose ends tidied up before going public with an arrest.

I should also mention that if the perpetrators of the crime are well funded in terms of being able to hire great lawyers, ($$$$$$$ quite likely) the TPS will endeavor to ensure, every detail of the case is meticulously prepared, as the defence will surely do everything to pick it apart, to win an acquittal. If some wealthy family or corporation is involved expect very slow and detailed work from the TPS.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

snipped by me

IMO When I hear "surreptitious" used by law enforcement in Canada (or outside the US, in general) I think about the "Mr. Big" ruse/pretense.

<modsnip: no link to referenced material>

I wonder if there are aspects of this case that would make a "Mr. Big" ploy one of the tools in their covert toolbox. .​

They can get very creative with covert tactics.

I went to school with someone charged and convicted of murder. (Spent years in prison until he won an appeal.)

At the trial we found out that the police had one of his best friends wear a wire. His home and phone were bugged. He knew correctly that he and his family were under surveillance.

His dad had a store and one day at closing he drove to the supermarket.

When he came out, a wheel on his car was flat and there was a note on the windshield. It was written by a Good Samaritan who wrote that they witnessed a man doing something to his car.

It gave the make, model and license plate number of the car the vandal was driving. IIRC, he reported it to the police and they said they couldn’t find the matching plate in their system.

At trial we learned the ‘vandal’ was an undercover cop. He flattened his tire so that he’d be delayed getting home.

 

[deugirtni]

Now that everyone has been enlightened about the 'Mr Big' stings, isn't that procedure going to stop working? How long can these crims fall for that, after reading about it all over the news?

 

[MistyWaters]

Now that everyone has been enlightened about the 'Mr Big' stings, isn't that procedure going to stop working? How long can these crims fall for that, after reading about it all over the news?

I think it continues to work because the type of people who Mr Big operations target are already comfortable in engaging in involvement with various gangs and criminal organizations, even if only through the illegal drug trade. The opportunity to be “important” and given the chance to earn easy money through criminal behaviour is a lifestyle that’s worth any risk, in some people’s minds. It mirrors how the underworld operates in general, for those so inclined to participate in illegal and criminal activities.

 

[deugirtni]

I think it continues to work because the type of people who Mr Big operations target are already comfortable in engaging in involvement with various gangs and criminal organizations, even if only through the illegal drug trade. The opportunity to be “important” and given the chance to earn easy money through criminal behaviour is a lifestyle that’s worth any risk, in some people’s minds. It mirrors how the underworld operates in general, for those so inclined to participate in illegal and criminal activities.

Yes I definitely get how it works, and how it has worked, but how long can it go on? Surely they can't all be total dimwits, and there has to be a time when they'd say, hmm, this sounds a little too familiar... (especially if they had committed a murder!)?

 

[WINDSOR]

I am sure some criminals are so cautious/paranoid that the Mr. Big ruse is not effective, but in other situations it can be quite useful.

I am sure that law enforcement has different strategies and tactics for different cases.

We just do not know in the Sherman case, and have to hope the TPS are successful.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes I definitely get how it works, and how it has worked, but how long can it go on? Surely they can't all be total dimwits, and there has to be a time when they'd say, hmm, this sounds a little too familiar... (especially if they had committed a murder!)?

Yeah it does make one wonder but in order to be capable of violent murder, I think there’s something going on with their brains that makes it impossible for us to rationalize. The psychology behind police work is something that’s always intrigued me including reliance on predicting behaviour of specific character types. The focus on crime solving through TV shows leaves the impression it’s just a matter of finding DNA, fingerprints, cellphone, CCTV or other physical evidence. But if it’s not that simple then using unscrupulous tactics to reveal the unscrupulous does seem to work. Maybe that’s because it’s similar to birds of a feather or fighting fire with fire, that style of tactic.

 

[WINDSOR]

Feb 1, 2017 ---Sgt. Paul Gauthier is scheduled to appear before the Toronto police tribunal Tuesday to be formally charged with neglect of duty and insubordination.
'They need a scapegoat,' says Toronto officer who released McArthur | CBC News

I think the focus on possible TPS mishandling the McArthur case will add pressure to the TPS, in the Sherman case. You can bet police investigator on the Sherman case will be very careful to not make any errors.

 

[MistyWaters]

Feb 1, 2017 ---Sgt. Paul Gauthier is scheduled to appear before the Toronto police tribunal Tuesday to be formally charged with neglect of duty and insubordination.
'They need a scapegoat,' says Toronto officer who released McArthur | CBC News

I think the focus on possible TPS mishandling the McArthur case will add pressure to the TPS, in the Sherman case. You can bet police investigator on the Sherman case will be very careful to not make any errors.

I have to wonder for what reason TPS appears to condone leaks like this to the media. It does nothing to enhance an impression of a highly functional, credible professional organization.

Whether it be police officers who are left with no option but to defend their reputation in the public realm, or homicide victims like the Shermans who’s family was initially forced to publicly plea for a proper investigation to occur, both examples are very similar.

 

[casesensitive]

It is incredible that the man who escaped while McArthur was trying to choke h

I have to wonder for what reason TPS appears to condone leaks like this to the media. It does nothing to enhance an impression of a highly functional, credible professional organization.

Whether it be police officers who are left with no option but to defend their reputation in the public realm, or homicide victims like the Shermans who’s family was initially forced to publicly plea for a proper investigation to occur, both examples are very similar.

I am usually pro-cop, but after reading in depth about Sgt. Paul Gauthier's claim that he is taking the fall for the TPS handling of the McArthur case, I find some troubling claims that can't be ignored. I don't know if Gauthier is guilty of not following proper procedures (or having a bias for homosexuals) until his disciplinary hearing provides more facts. But he didn't act alone in releasing McArthur.

My interest is in the Sherman case, and how TPS handled it initially, and how much I trust them in light of allegations that they screwed up initially with a M/S investigation and then catered to outside pressure to rename it a M/M. I'm not saying that I don't believe it wasn't a double murder, but as I have commented before, I am losing trust in TPS.

TPS Chief Saunders promoted (shipped out?) Insp. Susan Gomes, the lead investigator in the Sherman case, and named Insp. Hank Idsinga the new head of the homicide unit at the same time. Idsinga was the lead investigator in the McArthur case, which has generally been viewed as a TPS disaster. Idsinga is Chief Saunders former partner and good buddy. (alleged by Gauthier, but easy to verify imo)

I find the following disturbing facts:

-Dec. 2017 Chief Saunders held a press conference to say there is no evidence of a serial killer in the LGBT community (not true per DNA blood and sperm evidence collected from McArthur's van five months earlier, and having McArthur under surveillance as he spoke).

-One month later Bruce Mcarthur is arrested for multiple murders.

-Feb. 27 2018 Chief Saunders was quoted in a news article effectively blaming the community for McArthur not being caught earlier because they didn't come forward to LE. ( another faux pas he made trying to cover his butt imo).

-Feb. 28 2018 the very next day after Saunder's statements caused an uproar, Insp. Hank Idsinga, his buddy and head of the McArthur investigation, initiated a formal complaint, calling into question Gauthier's investigation when McArthur was released after questioning (Gauthier got his supervisor's agreement, and another officer in the interview agreed with McA's version).

Then followed the police leaks to the media about Gauthier, and Idsinga's multiple interviews about his misconduct which in itself is a breach (misconduct) under the Police Act, since one can't speak publicly about an internal investigation. let alone one that hadn't even begun. Why hasn't Idsinga been charged with his misconduct?

Was this Idsinga's time to cover his own butt and quell the uproar over the Chief's inane statement from the day before?

As an understatement, I will say I am not impressed with the impression I have of Chief Saunders or the head of homicide Hank Idsinga. Idsinga can be vindicated in Gauthier's hearing, but not if it is heard by Saunder's choice of who hears and rules on it. MOO

 

[WINDSOR]

I have to wonder for what reason TPS appears to condone leaks like this to the media. It does nothing to enhance an impression of a highly functional, credible professional organization.

Whether it be police officers who are left with no option but to defend their reputation in the public realm, or homicide victims like the Shermans who’s family was initially forced to publicly plea for a proper investigation to occur, both examples are very similar.

Small point, I do not believe these were leaks, but statements by the parties involved.

The TPS has and is under heavy criticism, especially from the LGBT community, with the implication that the TPS was not even concerned about a serial killer, because the victims appeared to be gay.

The TPS feels it has to defend itself as being thorough and fair and by singling out Gauthier they can say, 'See we wanted to do everything properly but on of our guys dropped the ball, and he is being punished'.

 

[MistyWaters]

Small point, I do not believe these were leaks, but statements by the parties involved.

The TPS has and is under heavy criticism, especially from the LGBT community, with the implication that the TPS was not even concerned about a serial killer, because the victims appeared to be gay.

The TPS feels it has to defend itself as being thorough and fair and by singling out Gauthier they can say, 'See we wanted to do everything properly but on of our guys dropped the ball, and he is being punished'.

In the document attached to the link above PG wrote there was a leak to the media a week after Feb 28th, when Idsinga wrote a letter to the Professional Standards committee. The statements then followed the leak as the information was already out there but I don’t believe it’s a standard for internal investigations regarding officer performance to be shared with the public at all. That it’s become public also appears to be why PG perceives he has become a scapegoat, is how I read it.

If what PG claims is true it’s going to reflect even more negatively on TPS and could result in higher level ramifications imo.

If by chance the leak came from a “senior police officer” is there a connection to the Sheman homicides, somebody who’s intentionally thwarting police investigations by injecting scandal into the media prior to investigations running their normal course?

 

[WINDSOR]

In the document attached to the link above PG wrote there was a leak to the media a week after Feb 28th, when Idsinga wrote a letter to the Professional Standards committee. The statements then followed the leak as the information was already out there but I don’t believe it’s a standard for internal investigations regarding officer performance to be shared with the public at all. That it’s become public also appears to be why PG perceives he has become a scapegoat, is how I read it.

If what PG claims is true it’s going to reflect even more negatively on TPS and could result in higher level ramifications imo.

If by chance the leak came from a “senior police officer” is there a connection to the Sheman homicides, somebody who’s intentionally thwarting police investigations by injecting scandal into the media prior to investigations running their normal course?

Yes, I now see where the leak preceded the statements. Thank you Misty. You raise a very good point.
The TPS may have three methods of communicating with the public.
1) "Official" statements from a named TPS officer.
2) Statements from a unnamed "Senior Police Office".
3) "Leaks" unattributed to the TPS, but meant to be considered valid.

This system can be very beneficial to the TPS, because it can spread information that is deniable by the TPS. It can influence media and public opinion, again with official deniability still intact.

However many in the public might consider it a corrosive and unethical practice in manipulating the truth.

 

[Milhano]

You make a very good point about the DNA, but I suspect that these killers were professionals, and used gloves, as well as some kind of hats, or hair covers when in the house. They may have covered their shoes or boots . If any trace of glove material was
found under Honey's fingernails, that would be interesting evidence . She could have been beaten, while being restrained, in order to make her give some information, or phone Barry, and ask him to return home early. TPS has I believe, stated that they suspect that there was more than one killer, so maybe she did not have a chance to fight back, and as another person mentioned on this forum, she could have been beaten in front of Barry to make him comply in some way. IMO

"in order to make her give some information," is the most interesting observation in this investigation. It leaves a huge amount of room to ask "what information?". Was it a group of professionals looking for corporate info or was it a group of professional thugs beating Honey to make Barry suffer for something he had done to others.

 

[WINDSOR]

"in order to make her give some information," is the most interesting observation in this investigation. It leaves a huge amount of room to ask "what information?". Was it a group of professionals looking for corporate info or was it a group of professional thugs beating Honey to make Barry suffer for something he had done to others.

I am not sure that Honey would have key corporate information that would be valuable to the assailants. Is there a possibility that Honey was injured not as a result of an intentional blow, but rather an accident, such as a trip, or stumble or push. For example if the assailants were waiting for Barry to arrive home, and Honey made an effort to escape and in the process of recovering her, she could have been injured.

As I ponder this case further, the more I sense this was not a murder based on the conflict with Big Pharma.
More 'personal' than 'just business'. This was a not a murder just to eliminate the Shermans, but a reflection, in my opinion, of retribution for some hurt, distress, humiliation or anguish supposedly caused by one or both Shermans.

 

[WINDSOR]

Nobody has posted in three days, are you all snowed in?

 

[JDG]

O/T but relevant to Windsors question.

We have a slight reprieve before the next storm, probably getting groceries. LOL

 

[JayFriend]

I didn't get any email notifications for a long time and had to go to the site to catch up. It seems that we're not always notified when there's a new forum page.

 

[casesensitive]

There really isn't much more to discuss in this case at this time. I think we have kept it going as long as possible, despite no LE updates or recent media attention.

So we wait, and put our faith in TPS that they are working diligently behind the scene, and we put our trust in believing that Chief Saunders was not influenced by any pressure from the Toronto Mayor or from the Prime Minister.

I sometimes reflect on the unsolved cases that I follow when I go to sleep at night. I go over any facts, circumstantial evidence and speculations on motive etc. It is impossible to simplify this case due to the number of enemies BS made in his business dealings, as well as his bizarre involvement with shady characters. The two friends closest to Barry both think he had a business/financial fall out with a shady character (paraphrasing). Neither one pointed a finger at KW or big Parma.

Their guess is better than any other guess imo, and it makes the most sense to me. BS may have reneged on a deal with a low life gangster. That could explain the undue violence (no simple gun shot to the head). Was it a "you don't mess with me" message? If so, wouldn't the purpose of a message be meant for somebody else? Who might that be?

The ten million dollar reward should flush out a rat willing to tell what he knows about any who killed the Shermans. It might also motivate someone to rat on any other source responsible for the murders. Hopefully names have been reported to the hot line, but unfortunately as far as we know, TPS hasn't agreed to send a member to the panel which assesses the tips for a reward share.

I believe the TPS and Greenspan's team remain uncommunicative, and egos, demands for sharing information, and police policy are preventing the teams from working together to help solve this case. Under these perceived conditions, I'm not sure how the reward motivated information will be investigated. TPS won't investigate if Greenspan doesn't share the hot line tips. I'm not confident that this is happening, but I hope I'm wrong.

 

[ldlager]

There really isn't much more to discuss in this case at this time. I think we have kept it going as long as possible, despite no LE updates or recent media attention.

So we wait, and put our faith in TPS that they are working diligently behind the scene, and we put our trust in believing that Chief Saunders was not influenced by any pressure from the Toronto Mayor or from the Prime Minister.

I sometimes reflect on the unsolved cases that I follow when I go to sleep at night. I go over any facts, circumstantial evidence and speculations on motive etc. It is impossible to simplify this case due to the number of enemies BS made in his business dealings, as well as his bizarre involvement with shady characters. The two friends closest to Barry both think he had a business/financial fall out with a shady character (paraphrasing). Neither one pointed a finger at KW or big Parma.

Their guess is better than any other guess imo, and it makes the most sense to me. BS may have reneged on a deal with a low life gangster. That could explain the undue violence (no simple gun shot to the head). Was it a "you don't mess with me" message? If so, wouldn't the purpose of a message be meant for somebody else? Who might that be?

The ten million dollar reward should flush out a rat willing to tell what he knows about any **** who killed the Shermans. It might also motivate someone to rat on any other source responsible for the murders. Hopefully names have been reported to the hot line, but unfortunately as far as we know, TPS hasn't agreed to send a member to the panel which assesses the tips for a reward share.

I believe the TPS and Greenspan's team remain uncommunicative, and egos, demands for sharing information, and police policy are preventing the teams from working together to help solve this case. Under these perceived conditions, I'm not sure how the reward motivated information will be investigated. TPS won't investigate if Greenspan doesn't share the hot line tips. I'm not confident that this is happening, but I hope I'm wrong.

Having taken a few days away from this case, I have done some reflecting on it. My conclusion is that TPS has squat- ie nothing. It makes no sense to me that any homicide force would transfer their lead investigator to desk job unless that individual and fellow investigators had not produced any results. A few days away has led me to this conclusion. I suspect the Sherman kids will spend the rest of their lives looking over their shoulders.