Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #12

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  • #481
To me all this supposed incompetence sounds more like TPS having pretty much concluded this was a murder/suicide from very early on. Its not that they neglected to collect video evidence, it just wasn't a priority given the direction the investigation was heading.
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RSBM
This in itself is total and real incompetence, not supposed incompetence. You are right in that it seems TPS seems to have pretty much concluded this was a M/S. Neglecting to collect evidence because it wasn't a priority because it didn't meet with their tunnel visioned gut feeling/first impressions, is outrageous, imo.
 
  • #482
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For me the big question is what evidence made them change their minds and declare it M/M. IMO the coroner information seems very speculative at best. The actual coroner seems to have deemed it inconclusive.
For me, the bigger question is what evidence made TPS believe in the first place that this was a M/S when, from all accounts and descriptions we have heard, it seems to suggest something much more sinister. Hoping that one day TPS has to answer to that.
 
  • #483
For me, the bigger question is what evidence made TPS believe in the first place that this was a M/S when, from all accounts and descriptions we have heard, it seems to suggest something much more sinister. Hoping that one day TPS has to answer to that.
Seeing as police have said absolutely nothing, all the evidence we have is coming from Greenspan, who in my opinion is biased.

I honestly believe TPS had it right when they thought it was M/S, but they gave in to political pressure and changed it to M/M as the autopsy was inconclusive. They figured the case would just go cold and die, but now the Star is pressuring for a release of information. I feel that TPS does not want to release any information, not because it would hurt the investigation, but because it would reveal that their really hasn't been an investigation since they finished at the residence.
 
  • #484
For me, the bigger question is what evidence made TPS believe in the first place that this was a M/S when, from all accounts and descriptions we have heard, it seems to suggest something much more sinister. Hoping that one day TPS has to answer to that.

I know, right? To me, it would be much more logical that if you're going to jump to a hasty conclusion, double murder is much more logical. Regardless of which is the truth, whoever leaked the murder/suicide theory to the press so early should be fired, IMO. Talk about muddying the waters.
 
  • #485
I know, right? To me, it would be much more logical that if you're going to jump to a hasty conclusion, double murder is much more logical. Regardless of which is the truth, whoever leaked the murder/suicide theory to the press so early should be fired, IMO. Talk about muddying the waters.
You think? I get the impression that the crime scene looked exactly like a husband beat the crap out of his wife, strung her up, then hung himself beside her. I think that this seemed pretty obvious to just about all in attendance. This would have been just another routine call if it were anybody else.
 
  • #486
For me, the bigger question is what evidence made TPS believe in the first place that this was a M/S when, from all accounts and descriptions we have heard, it seems to suggest something much more sinister. Hoping that one day TPS has to answer to that.
I don't think they will ever answer that. As I recall, Gomes was evasive in answering that very question with "six weeks of evidence". I think TPS were looking for any piece of evidence that would allow them to NOT rule this a M/S, and that came by way of Chaisson's differing opinion with the coroner.
 
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  • #487
I don't think they will ever answer that. As I recall, Gomes was evasive in answering that very question with "six weeks of evidence". I think TPS were looking for any piece of evidence that would allow them to NOT rule this a M/S, and that came by way of Chaisson's differing opinion with the coroner.
If TPS didn't bother investigating things that would be standard to investigate in such a case (ie, such as the footage from the last time the couple were seen alive to see if anything out of place might be noticed in the days preceding and during this last visit at Apotex, footage from a neighbor's videocam showing a person hanging around their front door the next morning, someone overseeing the evidence in this case, to say, hey look at this, we had a bogus 911 call on the same street during the same time when someone was hanging about the front door, etc.), how can it possibly be said that they spent six weeks 'looking for any piece of evidence that would allow them to NOT rule this a M/S'? Seems to me they avoided looking at anything that didn't jive with what they initially thought had happened.

When myself and others heard reports of the staging of the bodies, S/S and M/S were kind of the last things that would've been thought to have happened there, so I hope some day they answer to why they felt SO strongly about it that they neglected to bother looking at evidence that might suggest otherwise. imo.
 
  • #488
If I was Barry, and I had access to whatever APO drugs I wanted, I'd sure want to ingest a pile of something strong before I at least hung myself, even if I hadn't offered the same opportunity to my spouse whom I'd just murdered. That could potentially explain B's calm appearance with legs crossed, and glasses still on straight. The article said the PI's sent samples away for drug analysis to the US, and received the results within 48 hours, when it would have been weeks before results were back from the Forensics Lab.

As Pickup had done several days before, Chiasson took fluid samples to check for the existence of drugs, beyond what a 70-year-old woman and 75-year-old man would be expected to have in their systems. Those samples were rushed to a U.S. lab, and the results were back in 48 hours, weeks before the backlogged Ontario laboratory used by the police reported on their results.

Chiasson’s samples showed there were no drugs in either body (“on board” is the pathology slang) that would have killed the pharmaceutical mogul or his wife.

Barry and Honey Sherman: how the second autopsy revealed it was a double murder | The Star
 
  • #489
In dotr's reply #478, the short promo video "The first 48 hours" states:

" New book details the forensic evidence that likely led to the police mistake".

Finally, we may discover an explanation for the early M/S determination.
 
  • #490
You think? I get the impression that the crime scene looked exactly like a husband beat the crap out of his wife, strung her up, then hung himself beside her. I think that this seemed pretty obvious to just about all in attendance. This would have been just another routine call if it were anybody else.

  • Please explain to me if Barry restrained Honey's wrists before or after he 'beat the crap out of' her.
  • Was Barry wearing the restraints after he beat her?
  • Why did he take the restraints off of her and himself and hide them where nobody has been able to find them? What would be his motivation?
  • Did Barry have his coat on when he killed Honey or did he put it on after he strung her up?
  • There likely would be blood spatter on the coat if he was wearing it during the beating, if not was their blood spatter on his shirt. I think the lack of blood spatter would absolve Barry of killing Honey. (none has been reported)
The restraint markings on both victims and the lack of blood spatter on Barry pretty well eliminate the M/S theory.

Remember the M/S theory was just a hearsay opinion that appeared in the media. The media attributed this theory as coming from law enforcement, yet not one law enforcement officer has ever come forward either active or retired and supported the M/S theory publically.
 
  • #491
  • Please explain to me if Barry restrained Honey's wrists before or after he 'beat the crap out of' her.
  • Was Barry wearing the restraints after he beat her?
  • Why did he take the restraints off of her and himself and hide them where nobody has been able to find them? What would be his motivation?
  • Did Barry have his coat on when he killed Honey or did he put it on after he strung her up?
  • There likely would be blood spatter on the coat if he was wearing it during the beating, if not was their blood spatter on his shirt. I think the lack of blood spatter would absolve Barry of killing Honey. (none has been reported)
The restraint markings on both victims and the lack of blood spatter on Barry pretty well eliminate the M/S theory.

Remember the M/S theory was just a hearsay opinion that appeared in the media. The media attributed this theory as coming from law enforcement, yet not one law enforcement officer has ever come forward either active or retired and supported the M/S theory publically.

In fairness, after reading the excerpt from the book, it appears that there may be uncertainty whether their wrists actually showed any evidence of being restrained recently, or if these were old markings. I'm afraid we don't know the answer to this. And since at this point we don't know with certainty that the belts were not used to kill them (as opposed to another ligature) the m/s possibility remains out there as a possible scenario. I don't believe it, but it remains possible imo based on what we know (which isn't much).
 
  • #492
If I was Barry, and I had access to whatever APO drugs I wanted, I'd sure want to ingest a pile of something strong before I at least hung myself, even if I hadn't offered the same opportunity to my spouse whom I'd just murdered. That could potentially explain B's calm appearance with legs crossed, and glasses still on straight. The article said the PI's sent samples away for drug analysis to the US, and received the results within 48 hours, when it would have been weeks before results were back from the Forensics Lab.

As Pickup had done several days before, Chiasson took fluid samples to check for the existence of drugs, beyond what a 70-year-old woman and 75-year-old man would be expected to have in their systems. Those samples were rushed to a U.S. lab, and the results were back in 48 hours, weeks before the backlogged Ontario laboratory used by the police reported on their results.

Chiasson’s samples showed there were no drugs in either body (“on board” is the pathology slang) that would have killed the pharmaceutical mogul or his wife.

Barry and Honey Sherman: how the second autopsy revealed it was a double murder | The Star
Everybody on the planet has access to some sort of mind numbing drug, yet hanging remains one of the highest forms of suicide. The fact that there were no drugs in their system means absolutely nothing.
 
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  • #493
  • Please explain to me if Barry restrained Honey's wrists before or after he 'beat the crap out of' her.
  • Was Barry wearing the restraints after he beat her?
  • Why did he take the restraints off of her and himself and hide them where nobody has been able to find them? What would be his motivation?
  • Did Barry have his coat on when he killed Honey or did he put it on after he strung her up?
  • There likely would be blood spatter on the coat if he was wearing it during the beating, if not was their blood spatter on his shirt. I think the lack of blood spatter would absolve Barry of killing Honey. (none has been reported)
The restraint markings on both victims and the lack of blood spatter on Barry pretty well eliminate the M/S theory.

Remember the M/S theory was just a hearsay opinion that appeared in the media. The media attributed this theory as coming from law enforcement, yet not one law enforcement officer has ever come forward either active or retired and supported the M/S theory publically.

  • Please explain to me if Barry restrained Honey's wrists before or after he 'beat the crap out of' her.
There is absolutely no definitive evidence that their wrists were bound. That theory was made public by Chaisson, who was only working from photographs. The actual coroner had removed the skin from their wrists and sent it for further testing. Keep in mind, even after seeing their wrists the coroner DID NOT label this a double murder. IMO the supposed wrist injuries were negligible and may have been caused by something else unrelated to their deaths.
  • Was Barry wearing the restraints after he beat her?
See above
  • Why did he take the restraints off of her and himself and hide them where nobody has been able to find them? What would be his motivation?
Because there never were any restraints?
  • Did Barry have his coat on when he killed Honey or did he put it on after he strung her up?
I believe the jackets were put on just prior to hanging Honey. Barry wanted to ensure that once he hung himself that he had no means to change the outcome. If his hands were free, there would be a chance that he would use them to abort the suicide attempt. If he was restraining his arms, only makes sense that he do the same to Honey.
  • There likely would be blood spatter on the coat if he was wearing it during the beating, if not was their blood spatter on his shirt. I think the lack of blood spatter would absolve Barry of killing Honey. (none has been reported)
He didn't shoot her. The odds of blood spatter from a punch are very minimal.
 
  • #494
In fairness, after reading the excerpt from the book, it appears that there may be uncertainty whether their wrists actually showed any evidence of being restrained recently, or if these were old markings. I'm afraid we don't know the answer to this. And since at this point we don't know with certainty that the belts were not used to kill them (as opposed to another ligature) the m/s possibility remains out there as a possible scenario. I don't believe it, but it remains possible imo based on what we know (which isn't much).

No signs of forced entry. But the M/M folks have always brushed this off by saying the intruders likely ambushed Barry or Honey as they arrived home. But now we know there was a security camera fixed on the front of the Sherman home that apparently shows nothing. So how did these supposed murderer(s) get in? What was their motive? And how were they able to kill two people, elaborately stage the scene, but not leave any sort of evidence that they were actually there?

There is a reason LE didn't collect video in a timely manner. There is a reason they didn't collect prints and DNA from people known to be in the house. There is a reason that they didn't interview the realtor or their clients for weeks. There is a reason production orders were only produced listing Honey as a victim. Six weeks later Gomes announces this is a double murder, but do we any increased activity by LE? Quite the opposite, as within a year the investigative team is down to one person, and his function seems to be to keep information out of the hands of the Toronto Star. The two top cops in the investigation received nice promotions for being loyal employees, and TPS has never once reached out to the public for help in solving this case.

So many people here feel convinced that this is a double murder simply because of what they have read in the papers, but as LE has said absolutely nothing, the only information we are getting is from Greenspan's crew, who's only purpose is to discount the M/S theory. Believe what you want, but I discount any of Greenspans info as is biased. And from all indications, aside from Gomes' press conference, it seems LE think this was a M/S as well.

That said, we will never know the truth. Saunders and Gomes will never admit it, and they have Chaisson's findings to back them up. There will never be an arrest, and TPS are never going to say another word about it, with the exception of when they are in court trying to keep The Star from getting their hands on the truth.
 
  • #495
One of the most persuasive arguments for M/M seems to be the posture in which BS was found (if accurate): seated, legs crossed, glasses in place. My thought of the morning, just to open another speculative avenue - what if it was M/S but HS was the perpetrator? The injuries to her face could have been because he tried to defend himself, their wrist restraint marks part of the staging (she would have had plenty of time.) I know HS had numerous health issues, but she was quite likely still in better physical shape than he was (remember the dance video?) Possibly they fought over the new home, and/ or the monetary gift HS had promised her sister and/or who knows? We know BS didn't like to spend money.

(No, I don't think this is what actually happened - I'm still in the M/M camp - but just suppose?)
 
  • #496
No signs of forced entry. But the M/M folks have always brushed this off by saying the intruders likely ambushed Barry or Honey as they arrived home. But now we know there was a security camera fixed on the front of the Sherman home that apparently shows nothing. So how did these supposed murderer(s) get in? What was their motive? And how were they able to kill two people, elaborately stage the scene, but not leave any sort of evidence that they were actually there?

There is a reason LE didn't collect video in a timely manner. There is a reason they didn't collect prints and DNA from people known to be in the house. There is a reason that they didn't interview the realtor or their clients for weeks. There is a reason production orders were only produced listing Honey as a victim. Six weeks later Gomes announces this is a double murder, but do we any increased activity by LE? Quite the opposite, as within a year the investigative team is down to one person, and his function seems to be to keep information out of the hands of the Toronto Star. The two top cops in the investigation received nice promotions for being loyal employees, and TPS has never once reached out to the public for help in solving this case.

So many people here feel convinced that this is a double murder simply because of what they have read in the papers, but as LE has said absolutely nothing, the only information we are getting is from Greenspan's crew, who's only purpose is to discount the M/S theory. Believe what you want, but I discount any of Greenspans info as is biased. And from all indications, aside from Gomes' press conference, it seems LE think this was a M/S as well.

That said, we will never know the truth. Saunders and Gomes will never admit it, and they have Chaisson's findings to back them up. There will never be an arrest, and TPS are never going to say another word about it, with the exception of when they are in court trying to keep The Star from getting their hands on the truth.

For accuracy, we don't know If the security cameras that showed the front of the house showed anyone coming or going after committing the murders. I recall that the neighbours never viewed the video from wed night before they gave the video to police. The neighbours looked at video from Thursday, not from wed as per Donovan.
 
  • #497
One of the most persuasive arguments for M/M seems to be the posture in which BS was found (if accurate): seated, legs crossed, glasses in place. My thought of the morning, just to open another speculative avenue - what if it was M/S but HS was the perpetrator? The injuries to her face could have been because he tried to defend himself, their wrist restraint marks part of the staging (she would have had plenty of time.) I know HS had numerous health issues, but she was quite likely still in better physical shape than he was (remember the dance video?) Possibly they fought over the new home, and/ or the monetary gift HS had promised her sister and/or who knows? We know BS didn't like to spend money.

(No, I don't think this is what actually happened - I'm still in the M/M camp - but just suppose?)

Imo the most pervasive clue will be determining what strangled them. If something other than the belts, they were murdered. If the belts, imo any of the 3 potential findings is possible.
 
  • #498
  • #499
  • #500
Imo the most pervasive clue will be determining what strangled them. If something other than the belts, they were murdered. If the belts, imo any of the 3 potential findings is possible.

Or - to return to my idea of M/S but HS as the protagonist - what if the instruments of death were not the same for both, ie one party strangled or asphyxiated the victim, then hung themself with a belt? And - BTW having now feverishly read a bit of the book and looked at the photos - there's one of HS golfing just a month beforehand - she was in good shape, whereas one of BS's oldest friends is quoted as saying he never saw him run.

And, again BTW, the final photo of BS holding his new granddaughter just the week before he died is heartbreaking, whatever happened. He clearly had a warm and loving side to him.
 
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