Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #13

[ldlager]

In response to one of the press questions (which were hard to hear), Idsinga seemed very clear in saying that, while the murders were targeted, this was not a "hit". Make of that what you will.

What if the private team has been disbanded so that Greenspan can resume his more usual role as a defence lawyer? (Just wild speculation.)

No, I don't think that he said it wasn't a "hit". He said specifically "I don't think I'd go down that road. Sorry". (while he smiled). I interpreted this to mean he wasn't going to comment one way or the other, that why he said "sorry".

 

[nuff]

Who said Greenspan closed down the PI team?

“The work of the private investigative team hired by the family at the outset has been completed,” Idsinga told reporters. Unclear whether this was the family's decision or Greenspan's, or both,

 

[ldlager]

In response to one of the press questions (which were hard to hear), Idsinga seemed very clear in saying that, while the murders were targeted, this was not a "hit". Make of that what you will.

What if the private team has been disbanded so that Greenspan can resume his more usual role as a defence lawyer? (Just wild speculation.)

No, I don't think that he said it wasn't a "hit". He said specifically "I don't think I'd go down that road. Sorry". (while he smiled). I interpreted this to mean he wasn't going to comment one way or the other, that why he said "sorry".

You stated above: Obviously it had to be established that no will was located to obtain the order. But yet he made the same request for same order for BS, even though we know BS had a will. Therefore, your statement cannot be true.

I stated earlier that imo, he was very noncommittal in what he stated as far as H having or not having a will. As I posted above, he is quoted as saying:

"We don't know who the beneficiaries are, if there is a will," Sherman estate lawyer Timothy Youdan told the court hearing. "We don't know if there is no will." To proceed with the administration of the couple's estate after the deaths, Youdan filed a document asking for the "appointment of estate trustee without a will in the estate of Honey Sherman." He also filed an affidavit from a person described as "AB" stating that should the identity of the trustees and beneficiaries get out, they could be in danger of "violence and kidnapping." Even though Barry apparently did have a will, Youdan filed a document in court requesting the "appointment of estate trustee without a will in the estate of Barry Sherman." Why this was done is part of the sealing order the Star is challenging.

Mr. Youdan stated clearly in court that "we don't know if there is no will". He would not have lied to the court.

 

[deugirtni]

Just for clarification, in your scenario about another “estate attorney” surfacing with the will, who do you envision being the instructing client?

That has nothing to do with your bit above.

Clearly it’s lying if there is a will and he says it’s unknown. You are the one who said this was all a sideshow and there were never any issues.

Sorry to respond to this as it was not directed to me, however... what if... this Youdan person is the family's 'estate lawyer', however HS took it upon herself to both obtain independent legal advice for whatever reason she may have had, and get her will done by this independent lawyer... the regular estate lawyer may not have known about its existence until word of its existence popped up.. but once that happened, that would need to be authenticated, would it not? Nobody needs to be accusing people of believing lawyers are lying in court. I think this Youdan fellow wants to keep as much out of the press as possible, as he is working with the family/estate and that is their desire and surely their instructions to him. He is being vague on purpose. I'm sure he is not lying, however he may not be forthright in his statements of what is fact and what is fiction. He may be choosing his words very carefully so as to not be lying, as well as not letting any information out that he doesn't want public. imo.

 

[ldlager]

This is a direct quote, Idsinga’s response to media speculation -

“Idsinga offered no new details on the investigation itself. He wouldn’t speculate on motive, method or possible suspects.

“I can’t imagine how disturbing it must be for the family and for loved ones of these victims to continually read about speculation in the media. I understand there’s a job to be done, but it does make it very difficult for them,” he said.

“I’ve said it in other investigations and I’ll say this in this investigation: If you don’t hear it from the primary investigators mouth or the major case manager’s mouth, then you’ve got to take everything with a grain of salt.”
Toronto police: Resubmit Sherman murder tips given to private investigators to us

RBBM- If you don’t hear it from the primary investigators mouth or the major case manager’s mouth, then you’ve got to take everything with a grain of salt.”

Well, the primary investigator stated, on Dec 15, 2017 that LE was not looking for any suspects in this case. Are we supposed to now believe this (again)?

 

[rickcross]

Interesting, Honey's will was revised three weeks before her death. It make me think back to the early days of this case when it was rumoured that Honey was killed much earlier than Barry. Could this possibly have been done in an effort to make it clear who died first, thus which will would be used? Were they killed because one or more of the heirs saw a huge discrepancy between Barry and Honey's will?

 

[deugirtni]

deugirtni said: ↑
Who said Greenspan closed down the PI team?

“The work of the private investigative team hired by the family at the outset has been completed,” Idsinga told reporters. Unclear whether this was the family's decision or Greenspan's, or both,

Ok, so how does this quoted portion tell you it was Greenspan that closed down the PI team?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

“I can’t imagine how disturbing it must be for the family and for loved ones of these victims to continually read about speculation in the media. I understand there’s a job to be done, but it does make it very difficult for them,” he said.

“I’ve said it in other investigations and I’ll say this in this investigation: If you don’t hear it from the primary investigators mouth or the major case manager’s mouth, then you’ve got to take everything with a grain of salt.”
Toronto police: Resubmit Sherman murder tips given to private investigators to us

Respectfully snipped by me.

My impression is that he might be referring to Kevin Donovan and what he has written about JS.

Tied into that is this quote from Donovan’s
book (bbm):


“Having heard the news of the bodies being discovered, Winter said it brought to mind his long-standing fear that his brother Jeffrey might one day “go off the deep end” and kill Sherman. Jeffrey had struggled with mental health issues since he was a teenager and can be difficult to manage.

In fact, Winter said, he mentioned his concern about Jeffrey to someone just two days before he heard about the deaths.

With all that rumbling around in Winter’s head, he began panicked attempts to reach Jeffrey, who lives a reclusive life in Mississauga, just west of Toronto.

When he heard radio reports that police were at a home in Forest Hill, near where their adoptive parents, the Barkins, lived, he feared that police were there to arrest his brother.

Unlike Winter, Jeffrey Barkin had remained in touch with his adoptive parents. (Police were actually in Forest Hill to meet with the Shermans’ adult children at the home of daughter Alex Sherman.)

Winter said he kept calling. Finally, Jeffrey picked up the phone at his home.

“Jeffrey, Jeffrey, are you okay?” Winter said he asked.

“Yes,” Barkin responded, “why?”

“Where have you been?”

“Well, I’ve been about,” Barkin replied. “What’s going on?” When Winter mimicked his brother’s response, he did it with a slow, deep drawl.

“Have you heard the news about Barry and Honey?”

“Yes.”

“Did you do it?”

“Hell, no. I can’t believe you would think I’d do something like that.”

Winter said he hung up the phone, and a few minutes later his girlfriend called. “Kerry,” she said. “Tell me the truth. Did you do it?” “I said no,” Winter told me. “But Kerry, you always talked about doing it,” his girlfriend said.—”

— The Billionaire Murders: The Mysterious Deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman by Kevin Donovan
The Billionaire Murders: The Mysterious Deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman

KW’s media blitz following the murders might make sense if he believed someone close to him killed them.

 

[deugirtni]

RBBM- If you don’t hear it from the primary investigators mouth or the major case manager’s mouth, then you’ve got to take everything with a grain of salt.”

Well, the primary investigator stated, on Dec 15, 2017 that LE was not looking for any suspects in this case. Are we supposed to now believe this (again)?

Interesting how he says 'primary' investigator's mouth?

 

[ldlager]

But there's no reason to assume that all members share all information, IMO.

Really?
But in any event, I can't imagine that TPS gives the family (or any family member) specific information regarding their investigation.

 

[deugirtni]

Really?
But in any event, I can't imagine that TPS gives the family (or any family member) specific information regarding their investigation.

I don't think he said that TPS gives the family info regarding the investigation, but rather, that he communicates with them.. if anyone is giving information, perhaps it is some of the family members, rather than police?

 

[MistyWaters]

RBBM- If you don’t hear it from the primary investigators mouth or the major case manager’s mouth, then you’ve got to take everything with a grain of salt.”

Well, the primary investigator stated, on Dec 15, 2017 that LE was not looking for any suspects in this case. Are we supposed to now believe this (again)?

The context of “no suspects” iirc was very early on, neighbours approaching police, concerned for their personal safety because there had been a rash of robberies in the area. Price was assured them in police-speak they had no need to be unduly alarmed because “there were no signs of forced entry and they were not looking for suspects.” At that point he knew the victims had already been deceased for many hours, even more than a day and an intruder hadn’t raced out a back door immediately prior to the arrival of police. But at the time, the neighbours wouldn’t have known that.

Much like indeed there was no forced entry - even if a window or door was left open, entry wouldn’t have been “forced”, unless a suspect is identified, police will often say, well, they aren’t looking for suspects because they haven’t identified anyone in particular. If they had, they’d at least offer a description of who they’re looking for in asking the assistance of the public in locating that person. But that’s not to suggest the homicides weren’t being investigated and we know indeed it was and still is.

 

[ldlager]

I don't think he said that TPS gives the family info regarding the investigation, but rather, that he communicates with them.. if anyone is giving information, perhaps it is some of the family members, rather than police?

What would TPS communicate to them? asking them how they are feeling? I just don't understand what communications could be taking place.

 

[ldlager]

The context of “no suspects” iirc was very early on, neighbours approaching police, concerned for their personal safety because there had been a rash of robberies in the area. Price was assured them in police-speak they had no need to be unduly alarmed because “there were no signs of forced entry and they were not looking for suspects.” At that point he knew the victims had already been deceased for many hours, even more than a day and an intruder hadn’t raced out a back door immediately prior to the arrival of police. But at the time, the neighbours wouldn’t have known that.

Much like indeed there was no forced entry - even if a window or door was left open, entry wouldn’t have been “forced”, unless a suspect is identified, police will often say, well, they aren’t looking for suspects because they haven’t identified anyone in particular. If they had, they’d at least offer a description of who they’re looking for in asking the assistance of the public in locating that person. But that’s not to suggest the homicides weren’t being investigated and we know indeed it was and still is.

I get it. My point was rather that we have no idea which people at TPS should be believed, and when. Many still evidently don't believe Gomes.

 

[Jealoushe]

Could they want tips again, because other tips were ignored, becasue they didn't think the individual or individuals were involved, but now they do?

 

[ldlager]

Who would or could reasonably know the details of the Sherman's wills and identities of the beneficiaries ?
1) HS and Barry Sherman (they may or may not have known details about each other's wills)
2) The lawyers that drafted the wills and possibly staff in their offices
3) The Sherman children
4) Other Sherman family members
5) Perhaps a senior executive at Apotex (JK) or Sherfam (AG)
6) Someone that the persons listed in 3) or 4) or 5) could have told

Who stood to seemingly benefit financially from the murders?
Group 1 - no
Group 2- no
Group 3- possibly
Group 4- possibly
Group 5- unlikely - plus I think these individuals were highly trusted by BS
Group 6- possibly (if they were associated with someone in Group 3 or Group 4 and would/could benefit from individuals in Groups 3 or 4 inheriting).

IMO, if this case is linked to inheritance/financial benefit from the murders, the number of potential suspects would seem to be quite low.

 

[dotr]

Toronto Police Service :: News Release #46172
Monday, December 16, 2019
Homicide
416-808-7400

"Two years ago, on December 13, 2017, Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered in their home. The police investigation has been and continues to be active and ongoing.

The work of the private investigative team hired by the family at the outset has been completed.

The Sherman family appreciates the hard work and dedication of the police officers working on the case. They are committed to working with us, and have full confidence that the Toronto Police Service will solve this crime.

To date, investigators have obtained 38 judicial authorizations, which have resulted in the searches of residential and commercial properties, electronic devices, and the production of 73 individual records.

One hundred and fifty items have been submitted to the Centre of Forensic Science for testing; 243 witnesses have been interviewed; and four terabytes of security video have been obtained.

Two hundred and five tips have been provided directly to the police from the public and, to date, 343 tips have been provided to the police via the private investigative team.

Seven hundred and one investigative actions have been assigned.

But we are still asking for help.

The family and the police urge anyone who has reliable information regarding the murders - no matter how small or unimportant that information may seem, to please contact the police through their usual channels – either anonymously through Crime Stoppers at 416-222-TIPS or directly to the Homicide Squad at 416-808-7400.

We have also set up a direct email address for this case and tips can be provided via [email protected]. This email address will only be accessed by police investigators directly assigned to the Sherman investigation. We would encourage anyone who has provided tips in the past to the private investigative team to please re-submit those tips directly to the police.

Last October, the Sherman family established a Collaborative Reward Program to assist the police in their investigation. Should any tip or information lead to the arrest and conviction of the person or persons who perpetrated the murders, the Sherman family, in consultation with the Toronto Police Service, will be responsible for dissemination of any reward money.

It is important to note that Crimestoppers is an anonymous reporting mechanism. It is preferable under circumstances such as these to report any tips or information directly to investigators.

The Sherman family would also like to thank the public and the media for their continuing support during this difficult time. They request that their privacy be respected.

We would like to thank the Sherman family for their continued support and patience during this very lengthy investigation. Solving this case has always been the priority and responsibility of the Toronto Police Service, and our thoughts are always with the victims and their loved ones."

 

[Satchie]

My impression is that he might be referring to Kevin Donovan

Totally agree. I think TPS, the family, Greenspan, virtually everyone has gone through KD's book with a fine toothed comb, trying to figure out the sources for all his comments. That's what I'd do: who's he been talking to, who leaked all these details (true or untrue doesn't matter as much as who's been talking to him).

We don't know anything about what they concluded about who's been talking to KD (maybe, for eg, Greenspan was talking to KD but his words backfired) But we do know they've shut down the private investigation (I don't think Greenspan would stay silent for 30 seconds if that were untrue). Or maybe they only intended it to last 2 years after the deaths.

KW’s media blitz following the murders might make sense if he believed someone close to him killed them.

All I can say is, it boggles my mind anyone would share that story that KD did, with a reporter.

If you are talking to a reporter, it is never like talking to a deeply trusted friend. You know this person is going to publish what you say. You say things because you know they're going to publish it.

 

[dotr]

Barry and Honey Sherman murders' newest twist: family and police join forces - Macleans.ca
The private investigation into the Sherman murders is complete, and its tip line has been shut down, raising more questions about the two-year-old case
by Anne Kingston
Dec 16, 2019
"The police investigation remains “active and ongoing,” Idsinga said, as he provided ways to contact police directly. He sounded upbeat, noting the “next weeks” are going to be “very very busy going through information” and that police have “been getting a lot of great information from a lot of great sources.” The emphasis, however, was on the new, close relationship between the Sherman family and the TPS: The family is “committed to working with us and have full confidence they will solve the crime,” Idsinga said. Listening to him, it appeared that the Sherman family have brought on a new spokesperson: Toronto Police Services. And that creates yet another question: Why now?"

 

[nuff]

Barry and Honey Sherman murders' newest twist: family and police join forces - Macleans.ca And that creates yet another question: Why now?"

Wishful thinking - because arrests are imminent.