Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #14

[deugirtni]

The Sherman property was bought in 1985, 32 years prior to their murders. It’d be unlikely at the time a reputable contractor was only in his 20s so that’d put a potential murderer of that sort well into his 60s or 70s. I just can’t see it.

In the Likeness/O’Brien case, I recall A had recently declared bankruptcy of his business. The going theory was the killer might’ve been somebody who felt ripped off because a debt hadn’t been repaid. Nobody expected it might’ve pertained to a long ago incident over a failed patent involving a relative. Garland clearly had mental issues well beyond black and white monetary revenge, given the gore related material found in his home and he was also under psychiatric treatment at the time.

The theory of a contractor killer resembles the motive being A’s bankruptcy, insinuating B wrongfully made money off the back of a contractor and they got his house built for free. In Canada reward for damages for faulty construction are based awards for costs to repair. And it costs a lot more to rip out shoddy work than it does to build from new. I don’t believe there was a financial gain at all and I doubt the killer was a senior citizen. JMO

What if, unbeknownst to the general public, someone's life was deeply affected, possibly with far reaching offshoots, aside from the actual money amount, and possibly there was a child (teen/young adult?) who witnessed his family's life fall apart and forever held a grudge? Not saying any results were accurately attributed to the house lawsuit, but in someone's mind, a pile of bad luck events may have been blamed on the lawsuit outcome. Hope TPS has checked out all of the fallout that may have occurred following the Shermans' win. imo.

 

[MistyWaters]

I’ll be optimistic, I think the PI team backing out of the picture was a significant event and the Crown was soon ready to lay charges. But then came COVID-19 throwing everything into limbo. The implication of the Jordan Decision and the impact to the huge backlog of cases in Ontario first must be clarified otherwise the Crown risks homicide charges being tossed if the trial can’t be completed within 30 months.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stefanovich-jordan-decision-covid19-cases-delay-1.5638893
“......The Supreme Court of Canada's 2016 Jordan decision set hard limits on the amount of time that can pass between the laying of charges and the anticipated end of a trial — 18 months in provincial court and 30 months in superior court.

The Supreme Court of Canada's 2016 Jordan decision set hard limits on the amount of time that can pass between the laying of charges and the anticipated end of a trial — 18 months in provincial court and 30 months in superior court.

That ruling took into account the possibility of delays caused by illnesses and exceptional events — but there is no federal law outlining how those exceptions should be applied.

Lametti said that if excessive delays caused by pandemic restrictions on courthouse operations lead to confusion over how Jordan should be interpreted, he's prepared to introduce legislation to clarify how the benchmark should be applied in specific circumstances.

"We're prepared to take measures to make sure that the court system doesn't get overwhelmed," he said. "If we get to a situation where we need to legislate, we'll consider it."........

.....But the provincial and federal governments still have an obligation under Jordan to invest enough resources in the court system to get trials moving again, he said.

If they don't, and if the world has to live with eruptions of COVID-19 over the coming decade, Gottardi said the Jordan framework could come into play.....

......Provinces have been holding trials by judge alone — in part through video conferencing — but have gotten through just a fraction of the docket since March.

In Ontario alone, the Criminal Lawyers' Association estimates the backlog of delayed court cases now runs to 30,000.

Lametti hasn't announced any new funding for the courts. Justice Canada said resources are being discussed with the provinces and territories, but the department has not received a formal request for more money.

New federal health and safety guidelines are being put in place by courts across the country, which should allow full jury trials to restart in most jurisdictions this fall.....”

 

[deugirtni]

To me, if they have enough evidence to actually go to trial with a suspect, they're not going to delay. This was someone who murdered two people in cold blood and left them in a gruesome position for someone to find. I wouldn't think they would want them free to walk the streets until the timing particularly suits them. jmo.

 

[MistyWaters]

To me, if they have enough evidence to actually go to trial with a suspect, they're not going to delay. This was someone who murdered two people in cold blood and left them in a gruesome position for someone to find. I wouldn't think they would want them free to walk the streets until the timing particularly suits them. jmo.

It’s not about suitable timing, it’s about ensuring a prosecution won’t be thrown out. This killer has already been walking the streets since Dec/17. LE often has a prime suspect months or years before charges are laid, walking free, while they are building their case.

After the Jordan Decision 100s of criminals were freed because the time constraints weren’t met. Now this must be even a larger obstacle at present considering courts were overloaded even before COVID-19 struck.

‘It’s a travesty’: Nearly 800 criminal cases thrown out over delays since 2016 Jordan decision

JMO

 

[ldlager]

You are correct Misty. There was an open house, and it was clearly for public viewing. I also recall that TPS stated (in the presser video) that a main priority was to track down about 120 people who viewed the house while it was for sale.

Elise Stern presents

50 OLD COLONY ROAD

$6,988,000

OPEN HOUSE
TUESDAY NOVEMBER 28
11-12:30 PM

50 Old Colony Rd. Open House Tuesday November 28 11-12:30 pm

Almost all of the 120 people that saw the house were realtors who visited the house during the open house for realtors. No public open house afaik

 

[ldlager]

I also can't imagine a "public" open house being held. We know there was at least one open house (noted on twitter, however it may not have been intended to be exactly 'public') and possibly two (the Sherman neighbor mentioned Honey's open house) - possibly it was an open house meant to introduce that the home was going on the market, first to friends, family, associates, and fellow Realtors with a potential interest in the neighborhood... kind of "invite only", doubleduty type of thing?

Often it is beneficial to explore possibilities ahead of time in the event it might be able to be sold before officially on the market. Sometimes people are waiting/hoping for a home in a certain area, or want to move closer to someone already living in the neighborhood, etc. A kind of "coming soon" type of marketing initiative. The number of people TPS said they had to follow up with could be a combination of such a private/invite-only/register in advance type of event?

What I find strange is the existence of the lockbox, period. I believe we have read there were stipulations in place for the listing agent (or her designated 'assistant' (Stern?)) to be present during all showings. Why not physically give a key to only those two agents if one of them had to be there anyway?

Remember, the listing agent secured the listing, put a lockbox on the front door that by many accounts is not secure, and then within a couple of weeks she promptly took off to Florida.

 

[ldlager]

To me, if they have enough evidence to actually go to trial with a suspect, they're not going to delay. This was someone who murdered two people in cold blood and left them in a gruesome position for someone to find. I wouldn't think they would want them free to walk the streets until the timing particularly suits them. jmo.

It’s also possible the killers are in another country, and cannot be accessed or found.

 

[deugirtni]

It’s not about suitable timing, it’s about ensuring a prosecution won’t be thrown out. This killer has already been walking the streets since Dec/17. LE often has a prime suspect months or years before charges are laid, walking free, while they are building their case.

After the Jordan Decision 100s of criminals were freed because the time constraints weren’t met. Now this must be even a larger obstacle at present considering courts were overloaded even before COVID-19 struck.

‘It’s a travesty’: Nearly 800 criminal cases thrown out over delays since 2016 Jordan decision

JMO

I can understand while building a case, but when/if they have enough to go to court, I don't believe they would wait in this case. And possibly *especially* in this case, considering all the heat TPS has taken over it, the public's interest in the case, and the possibility those responsible could conceivably do it to someone else in the meantime. I understand the bad situation with the Jordan ruling, however I can't see covid becoming a free pass for murder charges occurring during this time. imo.

 

[deugirtni]

Almost all of the 120 people that saw the house were realtors who visited the house during the open house for realtors. No public open house afaik

How are you aware of this?

 

[deugirtni]

It’s also possible the killers are in another country, and cannot be accessed or found.

Sure. Chances are that if that were the case, there would still be one or more here to also be charged. imo.

 

[deugirtni]

Remember, the listing agent secured the listing, put a lockbox on the front door that by many accounts is not secure, and then with.in a couple of weeks she promptly took off to Florida.

I'm actually not sure of the listing date, nor the timing or realtor responsible for installation of the lockbox, nor the timing of Gottlieb's trip to Florida.

 

[casesensitive]

I'm actually not sure of the listing date, nor the timing or realtor responsible for installation of the lockbox, nor the timing of Gottlieb's trip to Florida.

Real estate agent Elise Stern shared the Sherman listing with Judi Gottlieb, who was a close friend of the Shermans. It was Elise who showed the house when the bodies were found.

Although we don't know when the house was put on the market for sale, we do know that Stern advertised an open house on Nov. 28 (per the link below). Open house notices strictly for other realtors are not made public. Stern's notice of an open house appears to be a public ad, and I have to question if this was a private notification to other brokers, how would be made public on-line.

It appears that the Shermans wanted to sell their home as quickly as possible. I think this priority might explain any agreement for a public open house, and using a realtor's lock box. I agree that these measures are atypical for multi-million dollar for homes for sale. It didn't make sense, but KD's research seems to shed a light on how it might have come to be. jmo

The Shermans had two houses for sale as the ground was being dug up on their $30m new home. In addition to 50 Old Colony Road, they had bought another house in Forest Hill which they had renovated and put up for sale at the same time. Honey had decided that the house and lot was too small, and that is why they purchased the lot that was 3 blocks from their daughter Alex in the same area of FH. I can imagine that both houses needed to be sold fairly quickly to generate the cash to finance the new home.

They lived at 50 Old Colony Road while it was for sale. Their plan was "whatever sells first, we will live in the other until the new house is built". The estimated time for the new house being built was three years.

eta link from realtor re open house:
50 Old Colony Rd. Open House Tuesday November 28 11-12:30 pm

 

[casesensitive]

Bouncing of my above post, the reports that Barry was going to give Honey her own money (many millions) might have actually happened. It might explain why Honey ditched the renovated home in Forest Hill and went for her dream mansion that she could now afford on her own. Just a thought.

 

[ldlager]

How are you aware of this?

the realtor open house was held in November and was attended by many realtors in the area- This happens every week when the new listings come out.

 

[ldlager]

I'm actually not sure of the listing date, nor the timing or realtor responsible for installation of the lockbox, nor the timing of Gottlieb's trip to Florida.

well we know she was in Florida by December 15. We also know the open house for realtors was November 28. The listing date was November 27.
50 Old Colony Road Toronto | Zolo.ca

 

[ldlager]

Real estate agent Elise Stern shared the Sherman listing with Judi Gottlieb, who was a close friend of the Shermans. It was Elise who showed the house when the bodies were found.

Although we don't know when the house was put on the market for sale, we do know that Stern advertised an open house on Nov. 28 (per the link below). Open house notices strictly for other realtors are not made public. Stern's notice of an open house appears to be a public ad, and I have to question if this was a private notification to other brokers, how would be made public on-line.

It appears that the Shermans wanted to sell their home as quickly as possible. I think this priority might explain any agreement for a public open house, and using a realtor's lock box. I agree that these measures are atypical for multi-million dollar for homes for sale. It didn't make sense, but KD's research seems to shed a light on how it might have come to be. jmo

The Shermans had two houses for sale as the ground was being dug up on their $30m new home. In addition to 50 Old Colony Road, they had bought another house in Forest Hill which they had renovated and put up for sale at the same time. Honey had decided that the house and lot was too small, and that is why they purchased the lot that was 3 blocks from their daughter Alex in the same area of FH. I can imagine that both houses needed to be sold fairly quickly to generate the cash to finance the new home.

They lived at 50 Old Colony Road while it was for sale. Their plan was "whatever sells first, we will live in the other until the new house is built". The estimated time for the new house being built was three years.

eta link from realtor re open house:
50 Old Colony Rd. Open House Tuesday November 28 11-12:30 pm

How do you know Elise stern was showing the house that day? I recall it was an an associate in Judi Gottlieb’s office.

 

[JDG]

How do you know Elise stern was showing the house that day? I recall it was an an associate in Judi Gottlieb’s office.

It was Elise Stern who showed the house along with a realtor for the possible purchasers.

 

[JDG]

Almost all of the 120 people that saw the house were realtors who visited the house during the open house for realtors. No public open house afaik

But members of the public CAN attend a realtors Open House. They do not refuse to let you see the property.

I have been to many in my area, as I drive by and go on in. A if you will.

Often they have some catering going on, if the owner allows it. Yum! lol

 

[ldlager]

But members of the public CAN attend a realtors Open House. They do not refuse to let you see the property.

I have been to many in my area, as I drive by and go on in. A if you will.

Often they have some catering going on, if the owner allows it. Yum! lol

Ok......
It really doesn’t matter to me if it was an open house for realtors, for the public, or for friends of the family. As long as tps can determine who went through the house and interview them all. What if they haven’t yet?

 

[MistyWaters]

As time passes media reports get deleted or overwritten. This is the only report I can find regarding interviewing people who had access to the home. But I’m sure I recall a specific number pertaining to the real estate listing mentioned somewhere as well.

Police investigation into Sherman double murder focuses on realtor’s 'lock box' | National Post
“In answering a reporter’s question, she confirmed that “we have that list” of anyone who gained entry to the Old Colony Road home in North Toronto, which was for sale, via the lock box.

“Anybody who had access to that home in the last weeks and months leading up to that weekend, those days — important to us,” Gomes said.

Lock boxes are often used by agents for periods when either the sellers are away or unavailable for showings, or when the agents themselves can’t be there for appointments. Keys to the home are left in the lock box, which is usually affixed to the door handle. Agents can then get the lock box code from the selling agent’s office, and take their clients through....”