Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #15

[Satchie]

As I believe we have appeared to have gone tangentially away from the main focus of the case I would like to go back to what I believe are crucial pieces of evidence.
1) The video's of Old Colony Rd. on the day and evening of the murders. Somebody knows what is on those tapes.
2) The physical location of several POI's at the time of the murders. This can be ascertained by witnesses or cell phone data.(pings on towers)
3) Records of passport screening at various Ports of Entry to and from Canada.

The fact none of the media reports speak about these things, leads me to believe that the TPS has the evidence.

I agree, a crime like this is a specific sequence of events that leaves some trail of evidence: communication or planning before hand, movement to the site, entry to the site, committing the crime, concealing the crime and leaving the site.

IMO theories about how certain individuals might have a motive and what it might be, are irrelevant unless it includes a discussion that explains how they could be tied to the crime scene directly. One may as well discuss big pharma plots, politicians wanting to suppress brewing political scandals, scorned ex-lovers, disgruntled fired employees, etc, etc.

ETA I also think it's important to evaluate how this particular plot and its result, expresses the perp(s) purpose. To understand the motives behind planning and carrying out this particular plan, rather than many other possible sequences of events, is IMO the skill of sleuthing.

For eg, Honey's relatives, it would seem, would have no interest in targetting Honey herself, as she was very generous, and harming her would require a very high level of anger, hatred and sadism

 

[MistyWaters]

One thing I wonder, why a working theory of 36 hours? That places the murders occurring close to midnight. If Barry got home at 8:30pm and was immediately attacked, dropping his gloves and home inspection report on the floor, that puts the killer in the house for 3 hours or more. If it’s true there were wrist markings, pathologists may’ve been able to determine the appx length of time the couple were bound. Other evidence LE may’ve noted might include analysis of late night water or power usage.

For that reason it seems to me the motive for this double homicide is well beyond a convenient and quick death in order to hasten an inheritance. IMO the time factor leads toward deep and dark elements of personal hatred and revenge, indications of a diabolical satisfaction craved by the killer involving torment of the helpless victims during the final hours of their lives. That’s just what I think. The side-show stories by KD don’t point in the direction of “an enemy” at the time of the murders without applying a considerable amount of total speculation. JMO

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-honey-sherman-murder-2021-1.5860527
“.....The Sherman's real estate agent, Elise Stern, called police at 11:45 a.m. on Friday, Dec. 15, 2017, from the Shermans' mansion....

.......The documents appear to bolster a working police theory that the Shermans were likely killed 36 hours before being discovered....

.....However, eight days after their bodies were discovered, their son Jonathon Sherman told investigators during an interview that the couple had enemies.

According to the ITOs, Jonathon Sherman told police his parents "were complicated people and that there are people out there who would have a grudge against them and would have a reason to hurt them."

The documents don't reveal who those individuals may have been...”

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Repost, bbm:

‘The house was dark inside. No lights were on and it was a gloomy day; snow had fallen overnight. Trainer Young wondered if the Shermans had left early for Florida, though Honey was not scheduled to leave until the Monday. Housekeeper Macatangay went upstairs to see if the Shermans were in bed.
‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after

Realtor Elise Stern said as she led the clients in the basement, she turned on lights as she went.

So the killer(s) turned the lights off before they left, IMO, for some reason. We know the neighbour’s cctv camera caught the front of the Shermans’ former home. Did it capture lights being turned off and the house going dark at a specific time?

And Donovan suggested that the killer(s) may have entered from the rear of the property. Were there motion sensor lights that they may have tripped before and after the crime and that was caught on neighbouring cctv cameras?

The police said the Shermans died between 9:00pm-12:00am. Pathology results may have indicated that timeframe. Maybe the lights going on or off are clues as well.

 

[MistyWaters]

Repost, bbm:

‘The house was dark inside. No lights were on and it was a gloomy day; snow had fallen overnight. Trainer Young wondered if the Shermans had left early for Florida, though Honey was not scheduled to leave until the Monday. Housekeeper Macatangay went upstairs to see if the Shermans were in bed.
‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after

Realtor Elise Stern said as she led the clients in the basement, she turned on lights as she went.

So the killer(s) turned the lights off before they left, IMO, for some reason. We know the neighbour’s cctv camera caught the front of the Shermans’ former home. Did it capture lights being turned off and the house going dark at a specific time?

And Donovan suggested that the killer(s) may have entered from the rear of the property. Were there motion sensor lights that they may have tripped before and after the crime and that was caught on neighbouring cctv cameras?

The police said the Shermans died between 9:00pm-12:00am. Pathology results may have indicated that timeframe. Maybe the lights going on or off are clues as well.

As well as unknown information regarding the Shermans own home security. IIRC the housekeeper noting the home security system was shut off that Friday morning was mentioned in the ITO, as opposed to contradictory media sources stating the Shermans had no home security system other than an old, non-working camera in the pool room.

ETA -
I got the feeling TPS intentionally allowed that small portion of the housekeepers statement mentioning the home security to be released un-redacted for a reason. Up until then it was literally a universal fact the Sherman home had none....if my memory is correct, the only intriguing exception was KWs claim here on WS that Barry was caught on his security camera, but with his face covered, murdering his wife because he forgot to shut it off.

 

[ldlager]

One thing I wonder, why a working theory of 36 hours? That places the murders occurring close to midnight. If Barry got home at 8:30pm and was immediately attacked, dropping his gloves and home inspection report on the floor, that puts the killer in the house for 3 hours or more. If it’s true there were wrist markings, pathologists may’ve been able to determine the appx length of time the couple were bound. Other evidence LE may’ve noted might include analysis of late night water or power usage.

For that reason it seems to me the motive for this double homicide is well beyond a convenient and quick death in order to hasten an inheritance. IMO the time factor leads toward deep and dark elements of personal hatred and revenge, indications of a diabolical satisfaction craved by the killer involving torment of the helpless victims during the final hours of their lives. That’s just what I think. The side-show stories by KD don’t point in the direction of “an enemy” at the time of the murders without applying a considerable amount of total speculation. JMO

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-honey-sherman-murder-2021-1.5860527
“.....The Sherman's real estate agent, Elise Stern, called police at 11:45 a.m. on Friday, Dec. 15, 2017, from the Shermans' mansion....

.......The documents appear to bolster a working police theory that the Shermans were likely killed 36 hours before being discovered....

.....However, eight days after their bodies were discovered, their son Jonathon Sherman told investigators during an interview that the couple had enemies.

According to the ITOs, Jonathon Sherman told police his parents "were complicated people and that there are people out there who would have a grudge against them and would have a reason to hurt them."

The documents don't reveal who those individuals may have been...”

If we are to believe the police, they were in fact called at 12.46pm on Friday ( it’s posted on their website) which is more than 2 hours after the bodies were discovered in the house. I keep coming back to trying to understand what went on in that house for over 2 hours before police were called.
I suspect the CBC reference to 36 hours (vs say 9 pm wed to 12.46 pm or so Friday which is about 40 hours) is just sloppy reporting by CBC.

 

[MistyWaters]

If we are to believe the police, they were in fact called at 12.46pm on Friday ( it’s posted on their website) which is more than 2 hours after the bodies were discovered in the house. I keep coming back to trying to understand what went on in that house for over 2 hours before police were called.
I suspect the CBC reference to 36 hours (vs say 9 pm wed to 12.46 pm or so Friday which is about 40 hours) is just sloppy reporting by CBC.

I recall the Sherman murders didn’t appear on the TPS website with an assigned Homicide case number for several months. Maybe a change in daylight savings time occurred by the time it was added? Regardless what’s recorded in the ITOs is surely more accurate than a clerk input data entry on a public website which is not a court record. But I do agree, the times should correlate for the sake of accuracy.

The appx 11:45am was reported at the onset so it can’t just be sloppy reporting by CBC. I know the contradiction you mention has been discussed before.

2 found dead in Toronto home of Apotex chairman Barry Sherman
“Toronto police said they got a 911 call around 11:45 a.m. about a medical incident at a house on Old Colony Road, near Highway 401 and Bayview Avenue, and found the bodies there.”

Billionaire Barry Sherman, wife found dead in their Toronto mansion, officials say
“Two bodies were found at 50 Old Colony Road in the North York area of the Canadian city on Friday after police received a call around 11:45 a.m. detailing a medical incident at the home, Toronto Police Constable David Hopkinson said at a press conference Friday afternoon.”

'TARGETED': Billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, police say | Toronto Sun
“The bodies of the Apotex founder, 75, and his wife, 70, were discovered Dec. 15 around 11:45 a.m. in the indoor pool area of their $6.9-million Old Colony Rd. mansion. “

 

[ldlager]

I recall the Sherman murders didn’t appear on the TPS website with an assigned Homicide case number for several months. Maybe a change in daylight savings time occurred by the time it was added? Regardless what’s recorded in the ITOs is surely more accurate than a clerk input data entry on a public website which is not a court record. But I do agree, the times should correlate for the sake of accuracy.

The appx 11:45am was reported at the onset so it can’t just be sloppy reporting by CBC. I know the contradiction you mention has been discussed before.

2 found dead in Toronto home of Apotex chairman Barry Sherman
“Toronto police said they got a 911 call around 11:45 a.m. about a medical incident at a house on Old Colony Road, near Highway 401 and Bayview Avenue, and found the bodies there.”

Billionaire Barry Sherman, wife found dead in their Toronto mansion, officials say
“Two bodies were found at 50 Old Colony Road in the North York area of the Canadian city on Friday after police received a call around 11:45 a.m. detailing a medical incident at the home, Toronto Police Constable David Hopkinson said at a press conference Friday afternoon.”

'TARGETED': Billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, police say | Toronto Sun
“The bodies of the Apotex founder, 75, and his wife, 70, were discovered Dec. 15 around 11:45 a.m. in the indoor pool area of their $6.9-million Old Colony Rd. mansion. “

Thanks. By sloppy I meant their reference to 36 hours when in fact it may have been an hour or 2 either way.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I recall the Sherman murders didn’t appear on the TPS website with an assigned Homicide case number for several months. Maybe a change in daylight savings time occurred by the time it was added? Regardless what’s recorded in the ITOs is surely more accurate than a clerk input data entry on a public website which is not a court record. But I do agree, the times should correlate for the sake of accuracy.

The appx 11:45am was reported at the onset so it can’t just be sloppy reporting by CBC. I know the contradiction you mention has been discussed before.

2 found dead in Toronto home of Apotex chairman Barry Sherman
“Toronto police said they got a 911 call around 11:45 a.m. about a medical incident at a house on Old Colony Road, near Highway 401 and Bayview Avenue, and found the bodies there.”

Billionaire Barry Sherman, wife found dead in their Toronto mansion, officials say
“Two bodies were found at 50 Old Colony Road in the North York area of the Canadian city on Friday after police received a call around 11:45 a.m. detailing a medical incident at the home, Toronto Police Constable David Hopkinson said at a press conference Friday afternoon.”

'TARGETED': Billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, police say | Toronto Sun
“The bodies of the Apotex founder, 75, and his wife, 70, were discovered Dec. 15 around 11:45 a.m. in the indoor pool area of their $6.9-million Old Colony Rd. mansion. “

This is a repost, but I just went to check the TPS website agin.

11:45 am seems to be what the court records say and what the police and witnesses have said....but the TPS website still has the police responding an hour later:
Homicide #64/2017
Homicide #65/2017
https://www.torontopolice.on.ca/homicide/case/65/2017


The good news, hopefully, is that their cases are still listed under ‘active’, not ‘cold’.

 

[MistyWaters]

Thanks. By sloppy I meant their reference to 36 hours when in fact it may have been an hour or 2 either way.

According to CBC, 36 hours is what police believe -

BBM

“They were found strangled to death in the basement pool area of their Toronto mansion on Dec. 15, 2017. Police believe they had been dead for about 36 hours when their bodies were found by realtors who had listed their home for sale.”
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/family-sherman-deaths-police-probe-1.5896496

Google says this was reported by the Star as well -
www.star.com > news › gta › 2021/03/17 › lead-ho..Mar. 17, 2021 — While a coroner would typically go to a suspected crime scene, a forensic pathologist would not, sources say. Police would later reveal that Barry Sherman, the founder of generic drug firm Apotex, and his wife Honey were killed 36 hours before their bodies were discovered.

 

[Satchie]

According to CBC, 36 hours is what police believe -

BBM

“They were found strangled to death in the basement pool area of their Toronto mansion on Dec. 15, 2017. Police believe they had been dead for about 36 hours when their bodies were found by realtors who had listed their home for sale.”
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/family-sherman-deaths-police-probe-1.5896496

Google says this was reported by the Star as well -
www.star.com > news › gta › 2021/03/17 › lead-ho..Mar. 17, 2021 — While a coroner would typically go to a suspected crime scene, a forensic pathologist would not, sources say. Police would later reveal that Barry Sherman, the founder of generic drug firm Apotex, and his wife Honey were killed 36 hours before their bodies were discovered.

To complicate things, TPS probably wouldn't want to to reveal an exact time of death, if they think they have it. To me, 36 hours is exactly 1.5 days, so seems like more of a round number, than saying 37 hours.

 

[ldlager]

Repost, bbm:

‘The house was dark inside. No lights were on and it was a gloomy day; snow had fallen overnight. Trainer Young wondered if the Shermans had left early for Florida, though Honey was not scheduled to leave until the Monday. Housekeeper Macatangay went upstairs to see if the Shermans were in bed.
‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after

Realtor Elise Stern said as she led the clients in the basement, she turned on lights as she went.

So the killer(s) turned the lights off before they left, IMO, for some reason. We know the neighbour’s cctv camera caught the front of the Shermans’ former home. Did it capture lights being turned off and the house going dark at a specific time?

And Donovan suggested that the killer(s) may have entered from the rear of the property. Were there motion sensor lights that they may have tripped before and after the crime and that was caught on neighbouring cctv cameras?

The police said the Shermans died between 9:00pm-12:00am. Pathology results may have indicated that timeframe. Maybe the lights going on or off are clues as well.

I know this has been pointed out before, but the reference to the bed not being made up the way HS usually made it up is odd. Unless HS went to bed on the Wed night when she got home, wouldn’t the bed have been made up by HS on the Wed morning After sleeping in it on the Tues night? Unless Bs made up the bed on wed morning? Or the killer made up the bed if HS was in it on Wed night? But if so, why would the killer make up the bed?
Or maybe the whole thing isn’t relevant at all.

 

[dotr]

I know this has been pointed out before, but the reference to the bed not being made up the way HS usually made it up is odd. Unless HS went to bed on the Wed night when she got home, wouldn’t the bed have been made up by HS on the Wed morning After sleeping in it on the Tues night? Unless Bs made up the bed on wed morning? Or the killer made up the bed if HS was in it on Wed night? But if so, why would the killer make up the bed?
Or maybe the whole thing isn’t relevant at all.

Off the cuff thought regarding the bed- is it possible the perp/s may have at some point ''staged'' HS on the bed but later decided the pool area was preferable?
speculation, imo.

 

[WINDSOR]

MistyWaters stated:
"For that reason it seems to me the motive for this double homicide is well beyond a convenient and quick death in order to hasten an inheritance. IMO the time factor leads toward deep and dark elements of personal hatred and revenge, indications of a diabolical satisfaction craved by the killer involving torment of the helpless victims during the final hours of their lives. That’s just what I think. The side-show stories by KD don’t point in the direction of “an enemy” at the time of the murders without applying a considerable amount of total speculation. JMO"

Alternatively, there could have been initial discussions, negotiations, bargaining, between the Shermans and the assailants, that evening. These discussions failed to bring a resolution that was acceptable to the assailants, and the deaths of the Shermans were the result.

Could it be the assailants were negotiating from a position of strength, "either we get what we want, or we will kill you, and then we get what we want"?
As well, maybe the assailants, initially did not intend to harm the Shermans, but things got out of hand, especially if Barry was stubborn, as he could be.

MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

I know this has been pointed out before, but the reference to the bed not being made up the way HS usually made it up is odd. Unless HS went to bed on the Wed night when she got home, wouldn’t the bed have been made up by HS on the Wed morning After sleeping in it on the Tues night? Unless Bs made up the bed on wed morning? Or the killer made up the bed if HS was in it on Wed night? But if so, why would the killer make up the bed?
Or maybe the whole thing isn’t relevant at all.

My recollect was the housekeeper thought it was odd the bed had been made that Friday morning because she said Honey left it unmade on the mornings she arrived (ie housekeepers job to make the bed). So if the bed was made Wednesday morning and not slept in again as the murders took place Wednesday night, the housekeeper would’ve noticed the bed was made on that Friday morning,

 

[deugirtni]

I know this has been pointed out before, but the reference to the bed not being made up the way HS usually made it up is odd. Unless HS went to bed on the Wed night when she got home, wouldn’t the bed have been made up by HS on the Wed morning After sleeping in it on the Tues night? Unless Bs made up the bed on wed morning? Or the killer made up the bed if HS was in it on Wed night? But if so, why would the killer make up the bed?
Or maybe the whole thing isn’t relevant at all.

I think it is only trying to say the couple was not alive on the Friday morning, and likely did not sleep in the bed on the Thursday night (or possibly also the Wednesday night), because H would leave the bed UNmade on Fridays when she knew the housekeeper would be coming, so therefore, H had made it as per her usual daily routine, either on the Wednesday morning or Thursday morning. The housekeeper may not have known how neat or not-neat the bed may have been made by H on the 6/7 days when the housekeeper was NOT in attendance.

It was referenced in the ebook that housekeeper only came once per week (At 8:30 A.M., two people arrived on a clockwork schedule: a cleaning lady on her regular Friday visit… ebook pg 7)
---
"The housekeeper said she found that the bed in the master bedroom was made but a bit untidy and noticed that the sink Honey normally uses was dry.

It was unusual, she said, for the bed to be made on Fridays as Honey often left the bed unmade when she knew the housekeeper was coming."
It's been 3 years since Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead. Court documents reveal what we know so far

 

[MistyWaters]

MistyWaters stated:
"For that reason it seems to me the motive for this double homicide is well beyond a convenient and quick death in order to hasten an inheritance. IMO the time factor leads toward deep and dark elements of personal hatred and revenge, indications of a diabolical satisfaction craved by the killer involving torment of the helpless victims during the final hours of their lives. That’s just what I think. The side-show stories by KD don’t point in the direction of “an enemy” at the time of the murders without applying a considerable amount of total speculation. JMO"

Alternatively, there could have been initial discussions, negotiations, bargaining, between the Shermans and the assailants, that evening. These discussions failed to bring a resolution that was acceptable to the assailants, and the deaths of the Shermans were the result.

Could it be the assailants were negotiating from a position of strength, "either we get what we want, or we will kill you, and then we get what we want"?
As well, maybe the assailants, initially did not intend to harm the Shermans, but things got out of hand, especially if Barry was stubborn, as he could be.

MOO

It’s possible.

I think one unusual element of this murder case is it involved substantial up-close contact and touching of the victims, including both the strangulation and body repositioning.

That stands out IMO to be very different from say, a shooting or stabbing, how the majority of murders are committed. No doubt of interest to professional profilers.

 

[deugirtni]

I know this has been pointed out before, but the reference to the bed not being made up the way HS usually made it up is odd. Unless HS went to bed on the Wed night when she got home, wouldn’t the bed have been made up by HS on the Wed morning After sleeping in it on the Tues night? Unless Bs made up the bed on wed morning? Or the killer made up the bed if HS was in it on Wed night? But if so, why would the killer make up the bed?
Or maybe the whole thing isn’t relevant at all.

Only the Friday newspaper being on the doorstep and not yet collected by the occupant is of interest to me, since, as someone had pointed out long ago, there should've been two newspapers, both Thursday's and Friday's, but no mention of the Thursday's. I'm wondering what time of day the newspapers were delivered. (Often newspaper delivery people do their residential deliveries in the wee hours before people start waking up.) Also wondering if the killer(s) was therefore still present inside the house at the time when Thursday morning's paper was delivered, and took it with him, to add more confusion to TOD. I hope TPS interviewed the newspaper delivery people!

 

[MistyWaters]

To complicate things, TPS probably wouldn't want to to reveal an exact time of death, if they think they have it. To me, 36 hours is exactly 1.5 days, so seems like more of a round number, than saying 37 hours.

Yes, it’s unlikely they’d know the exact time anyway. Early on iirc it was estimated between 6pm and midnight. Even then I thought the wide time frame was interesting as that seemed to indicate it wasn’t necessarily a quick surprise attack immediately after Honey arrived home, then after Barry arrived home and the killer was out of there. That’s also why the hired hit theory never seemed likely to me.

 

[deugirtni]

There should've been a wealth of information on that neighbour's security video recording (as well as other neighbours who have NOT contacted KD!). KD has reported that they didn't think to look at prior to Thursday, since the bodies had been discovered on the Friday morning. I believe the recording was on a 7-day loop at which time it would start over again, IIRC. Therefore, the Wednesday should've been on there too, as well as all the activity on the Friday morning. At least as far as vehicles showing up, etc., such as the newspaper delivery van (assuming a van). My guess is the neighbours DID look at all of the days on that video, but are not at liberty to say what they saw. imo.

 

[JDG]

I know this has been pointed out before, but the reference to the bed not being made up the way HS usually made it up is odd. Unless HS went to bed on the Wed night when she got home, wouldn’t the bed have been made up by HS on the Wed morning After sleeping in it on the Tues night? Unless Bs made up the bed on wed morning? Or the killer made up the bed if HS was in it on Wed night? But if so, why would the killer make up the bed?
Or maybe the whole thing isn’t relevant at all.

********************************************************

Perhaps HS didnt 'make the bed up', some households fold the bedding down to air the beds.

I'm not splitting hairs here, something was amiss but my impression was that someone may have sat on a made/unmade bed while thinking about the belts. IMO

IF it was someone who had knowledge of the household, they'd have known where to look for belts immediately. IMO

Seeing as they still had their coats/jackets on, highly unlikely that HS had gone to bed that evening. IMO

ETA: Just saw some other posts re: bed. Maybe it was all or maybe it was irrelevant. IMO