Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #15

[deugirtni]

Okay thanks for that, although it still doesn’t put the plant waterer person arriving with the housekeeper first thing in the morning. Instead it appears to have been the trainer.

“Time unspecified) As Stern and the group walk upstairs, a gardener arrives who routinely waters the Shermans’ indoor plants.”

I'm sorry.. I'm slow today (every day?).. I'm missing your point?

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm sorry.. I'm slow today (every day?).. I'm missing your point?

We all have our days. My point was, from my earlier link/post, what KD reported early on cannot be true as it appears it was the housekeeper and trainer who arrived first thing in the morning. Call me a nitpicker but if one thing is wrong in a media report I question the accuracy of other “facts” as reported especially when the source isn’t disclosed.

KD -
“Friday morning, at 8:30 a.m., the housekeeper and a person who waters the Shermans’ plants once a week arrived at Old Colony Rd. for regularly scheduled Friday-morning visits. Both housekeeper and plant waterer busied themselves on the main and second floor for the next two hours.......”
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide

 

[MistyWaters]

I’m not so sure it’s a warning by the perpetrator for others to stay silent as much as it was to inflict horror, humiliation and shame upon the victims and the Sherman family,

In terms of horror, humiliation and shame, I believe the staging was extremely mild. Many examples of murders that were much more horrific. Manson, Williams, Bernardo, MacArthur, to just name a few.

Possibly I didn’t explain my thoughts well enough. None of the victims you mentioned were thought to have died by m/s so none are a good comparison to wealthy philanthropists with buildings, parks named after them, nor recipients of the Order of Canada.

Had the staging as m/s not been recognized as a targeted double murder IMO everything that was awarded or named in the couples honour would’ve been quickly yanked without any doubt. I can’t think of anything greater that would cause public shame and humiliation to the memory of the Shermans and the family name than that, considering their extensive involvement in the legacy of giving.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I don’t know if this has been posted before. It’s a story from December 7, 2016 about ‘Orillia Storage’ which is now remamed Green Orillia Storage, JS & AP’s company.

The city ruled to close part of a road as there were many traffic accidents and delays at a poorly designed intersection.

bbm:

“(Green) Orillia Storage owners Adam Paulin and Al Azevedo were disappointed by the outcome of Monday’s discussion.

“By March 1, we could lose half our customers, and there’s half your revenue that you survive on,” Paulin told Simcoe.com.

“And still pay the same taxes, still have the same overhead,” added Azevedo.”

(AP on the left.)

Orillia business fears road closure will drive away customers

 

[deugirtni]

We all have our days. My point was, from my earlier link/post, what KD reported early on cannot be true as it appears it was the housekeeper and trainer who arrived first thing in the morning. Call me a nitpicker but if one thing is wrong in a media report I question the accuracy of other “facts” as reported especially when the source isn’t disclosed.

KD -
“Friday morning, at 8:30 a.m., the housekeeper and a person who waters the Shermans’ plants once a week arrived at Old Colony Rd. for regularly scheduled Friday-morning visits. Both housekeeper and plant waterer busied themselves on the main and second floor for the next two hours.......”
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide

If his source at that earlier time was someone in the know, and he named them, would it have made a difference? (Not to me.) And thankfully, KD keeps plugging away, and updating us with the facts after his numerous court appearances culminate in having some documents released, even if it means he or his source may have mixed up a person or two in the earlier reporting. imo.

 

[deugirtni]

Possibly I didn’t explain my thoughts well enough. None of the victims you mentioned were thought to have died by m/s so none are a good comparison to wealthy philanthropists with buildings, parks named after them, nor recipients of the Order of Canada.

Had the staging as m/s not been recognized as a targeted double murder IMO everything that was awarded or named in the couples honour would’ve been quickly yanked without any doubt. I can’t think of anything greater that would cause public shame and humiliation to the memory of the Shermans and the family name than that, considering their extensive involvement in the legacy of giving.

I'm wondering if, HAD that M/S determination held up, and as you said, all of the visible philanthropic efforts yanked from public view, would it have also resulted in charities not wanting/accepting donations from Sherman money?

 

[JDG]

I don’t know if this has been posted before. It’s a story from December 7, 2016 about ‘Orillia Storage’ which is now remamed Green Orillia Storage, JS & AP’s company.

The city ruled to close part of a road as there were many traffic accidents and delays at a poorly designed intersection.

bbm:

“(Green) Orillia Storage owners Adam Paulin and Al Azevedo were disappointed by the outcome of Monday’s discussion.

“By March 1, we could lose half our customers, and there’s half your revenue that you survive on,” Paulin told Simcoe.com.

“And still pay the same taxes, still have the same overhead,” added Azevedo.”
View attachment 288624

(AP on the left.)

Orillia business fears road closure will drive away customers

Good find Lexi.

They sure have a nerve expecting the taxes to be reduced as the size of the land remains the same.

Toronto property tax has to do with ones' frontage, not the state of the road in to the property!

 

[Satchie]

I'm wondering if, HAD that M/S determination held up, and as you said, all of the visible philanthropic efforts yanked from public view, would it have also resulted in charities not wanting/accepting donations from Sherman money?

IMO they'd be happy to accept donations, but be hesitant to name anything after them until they had a sense of how the public/other donors would feel about it. But IMO it would be very unlikely for trustees of the estate to suggest that, you really don't want to remind everyone of such a thing. (Having worked with a donor relations department, they are exquisitely sensitive to any hint of high society scandal.)

 

[deugirtni]

IMO they'd be happy to accept donations, but be hesitant to name anything after them until they had a sense of how the public/other donors would feel about it. But IMO it would be very unlikely for trustees of the estate to suggest that, you really don't want to remind everyone of such a thing. (Having worked with a donor relations department, they are exquisitely sensitive to any hint of high society scandal.)

The trustees wouldn't likely need to remind anyone of such a thing, it's such a high profile case. I'm just thinking such a determination might have reduced the requests for donations, which may or may not be considered beneficial to.. whomever.

 

[ldlager]

Are you just kidding, or does TPS actually read the posts here?

I was making a joke, maybe a lame one, but who knows, maybe tps does review our postings!

 

[deugirtni]

Good find Lexi.

They sure have a nerve expecting the taxes to be reduced as the size of the land remains the same.

Toronto property tax has to do with ones' frontage, not the state of the road in to the property!

Looks like that road closure went ahead and was approved. From the looks of things, it seems a reach to say such initiative would affect Green's business. Now customers just go a slightly different route to get there, and seems they may have to pass by a Costco. Looks like anyone visiting the Costco might see signage from Green to become aware of its existence.. not a bad thing!

Work to resume at Old Barrie Road intersection in spring 2017

Google Maps

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I was making a joke, maybe a lame one, but who knows, maybe tps does review our postings!

I laughed. : )

There was a thread here, now deleted, and the VI was the victim’s wife. She told us that the TPS told her they were reading the thread because she was posting on it. She told the Star about her involvement here as well.

The TPS may be interested in what KW has to say.

 

[MistyWaters]

If his source at that earlier time was someone in the know, and he named them, would it have made a difference? (Not to me.) And thankfully, KD keeps plugging away, and updating us with the facts after his numerous court appearances culminate in having some documents released, even if it means he or his source may have mixed up a person or two in the earlier reporting. imo.

For me, yes definitely. Named sources always have their reputation at stake as well.

Isn’t this the same as everyday life? I can think of virtually any group of people one becomes closely connected with - some are very careful with details, others become known to exaggerate and embellish. At the very bottom of the believably scale is somebody told somebody who told somebody else. A source such as that isn’t worth much credibility at all IMO. I suppose if one readily believes or if one is somewhat sceptical of unnamed sources may depend on life’s experiences in general.

 

[WINDSOR]

Possibly I didn’t explain my thoughts well enough. None of the victims you mentioned were thought to have died by m/s so none are a good comparison to wealthy philanthropists with buildings, parks named after them, nor recipients of the Order of Canada.

Had the staging as m/s not been recognized as a targeted double murder IMO everything that was awarded or named in the couples honour would’ve been quickly yanked without any doubt. I can’t think of anything greater that would cause public shame and humiliation to the memory of the Shermans and the family name than that, considering their extensive involvement in the legacy of giving.

I am not sure I accept your contention that suicide causes public shame and humiliation. Ernest Hemingway, author; John Robarts, former Premier of Ontario; and Margot Kidder, actress; are just examples of suicide victims whose legacies I believe are intact. With the availability of Medically Assisted Suicide legal in Canada now, I do not think the stigma still exists. There are schools, and libraries still named after Robarts.

If one of the goals of the perpetrator(s), besides killing them, was to shame and discredit the Shermans, there much more effective ways to do it.
I may be way off, but I feel the staging was not about tricking the TPS into believing that is was a M/S and the subsequent shame, but rather something much more significant to the perpetrator's relationship with the victims.

 

[JDG]

^^^ just to clarify, its MAID, Medical Assistance in Dying. I believe that the death certificate lists it as suicide.

 

[deugirtni]

I am not sure I accept your contention that suicide causes public shame and humiliation. Ernest Hemingway, author; John Robarts, former Premier of Ontario; and Margot Kidder, actress; are just examples of suicide victims whose legacies I believe are intact. With the availability of Medically Assisted Suicide legal in Canada now, I do not think the stigma still exists. There are schools, and libraries still named after Robarts.

If one of the goals of the perpetrator(s), besides killing them, was to shame and discredit the Shermans, there much more effective ways to do it.
I may be way off, but I feel the staging was not about tricking the TPS into believing that is was a M/S and the subsequent shame, but rather something much more significant to the perpetrator's relationship with the victims.

But those people you mention didn't also take someone else out with themselves, ie 'murder/suicide. Double suicide, maybe not so much, but that seems like it was hardly a viable option, considering H's facial trauma. imo.

 

[MistyWaters]

I am not sure I accept your contention that suicide causes public shame and humiliation. Ernest Hemingway, author; John Robarts, former Premier of Ontario; and Margot Kidder, actress; are just examples of suicide victims whose legacies I believe are intact. With the availability of Medically Assisted Suicide legal in Canada now, I do not think the stigma still exists. There are schools, and libraries still named after Robarts.

If one of the goals of the perpetrator(s), besides killing them, was to shame and discredit the Shermans, there much more effective ways to do it.
I may be way off, but I feel the staging was not about tricking the TPS into believing that is was a M/S and the subsequent shame, but rather something much more significant to the perpetrator's relationship with the victims.

Yes as deugirtni suggested, none of those who’ve you’ve named was ever a suspected murderer of their partner. Suicide because one has murdered does not erase the act of taking another person life. I think you’d agree no person committing domestic violence let alone murdering their spouse is ever held by esteem in today’s society.

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm wondering if, HAD that M/S determination held up, and as you said, all of the visible philanthropic efforts yanked from public view, would it have also resulted in charities not wanting/accepting donations from Sherman money?

I’ve wondered that too. I can’t think of any other comparison but in a hypothetical scenario - if it was proven someone was proven guilty of murdering their spouse, regardless if they took their own life, I can’t imagine any charity wanting the bad publicity unless it was directly involved in some sort of treatment or prevention to benefit others by saving lives in the future. Even then the donor certainly wouldn’t be considered a role model, more like an undesirable who went down the wrong path, a worst case scenario.

 

[casesensitive]

I feel that the Sherman legacy of donations would have become a problem if a M/S determination had been proven. I also think that the organizations who are are benefactors of their donations would propose a donor name change to Honey Sherman and hope for a continuation of funds.

Just to change the topic, LE will (should) ask people close to the victims and POI's to agree to a polygraph test. I hope TSP has asked people at every interview when warranted. We know that the test isn't admissible in court, but any person refusing is a red flag to LE regardless of their innocence.

Has KD ever asked his sources if they know who was asked, and who declined? He didn't ask JS when he had the chance at their face to face interview. That would be my first question, and I think it is an important one. jmo

 

[WINDSOR]

I think there is a distinction that I may be hung up on.
Mr A's wife is ailing and terminally ill. At her request he kills her to end her suffering and then he commits suicide. I do not think this type of M/S has much stigma.

Mr.B has a fight with his wife, and subsequentailly kills her. Mr. B becomes distraught and then he kills himself. This type of scenario, I believe would have a lot more stigma.