CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #16

[otto]

I don’t find it odd that the location is over a mile away. No perp would park just down the street. What makes you think LE would release an “incorrect” location?

I don’t think anybody from LE has suggested that any perp “barged in”.

I don’t think the person in the video is noticeably limping. Imo they are striding.

Apparently this IS LE’s theory. Otherwise I don’t think they would have released the video

Why do you think it is a hit man (and why don’t you think a hit man would “put up” with walking away from a murder - at midnight, when it was dark, -16 degrees, and so snowy that nobody would be outside to notice them)?

All jmo

I didn't realize that Toronto Police released the address of the CCTV - that's quite a breach of privacy for police to reveal private citizen information.

Police released information that one foot seems out of step.

 

[deugirtni]

To me, this is a very interesting answer (absolutely no answer, imo) BP had for this reporter's question (this is from the transcription posted upthread, of BP's press conference):
BBM:
TPHQ: Any follow-up MK?

MK: Yeah. Just one. Just wanted to know if this video has been shared with the members of the Sherman family and if they were able to give you any information to whether they know or are unable to recognize this person

DSBP: I did share with the Sherman family and as always my conversations with them will remain private but they have been very supportive and very helpful all the way through this investigation, um, and I look forward to their continued support.

From about 9:14 at this youtube of the press conference here:

 

[deugirtni]

RSBM

.....
I would be surprised that the perp would use back yards to walk through, there I would expect neighbors to have motion detecting lights.
....

Good point.. one might imagine that traipsing through homeowners' back yards could set off all kinds of unwanted activity.. such as the motion detecting lights mentioned above.. dogs in the homes barking to alert their humans.. backyard cameras - is that unheard of in more prestigious neighbourhoods? Would a person providing all the peripheral information to the suspect necessarily know about what's in the BACK yards?

What if one of the homes contained a websleuther up in the middle of the night who'd just happened to let their dog OUT? Seems rather risky. But I guess if the perp got caught by dogs or lights, if he's not carrying weapons, he could simply say he was cutting through? His mission would be unsuccessful and incomplete, but nobody would've been the wiser as to what Plan A had been. imo.

 

[Sphinx]

RSBM

Good point.. one might imagine that traipsing through homeowners' back yards could set off all kinds of unwanted activity.. such as the motion detecting lights mentioned above.. dogs in the homes barking to alert their humans.. backyard cameras - is that unheard of in more prestigious neighbourhoods? Would a person providing all the peripheral information to the suspect necessarily know about what's in the BACK yards?

What if one of the homes contained a websleuther up in the middle of the night who'd just happened to let their dog OUT? Seems rather risky. But I guess if the perp got caught by dogs or lights, if he's not carrying weapons, he could simply say he was cutting through? His mission would be unsuccessful and incomplete, but nobody would've been the wiser as to what Plan A had been. imo.

This was carefully planned IMO. I suspect that the entry and exit route was walked ahead of time by someone, even if it was not the assassin. I have for instance on rare occasions seen people walking on my property, and when I went outside on my porch to ask them what they were doing, they said they were looking for a lost cat or dog. Once I could see the dog running along a fence, and the other time, I knew the guy in the neighbourhood who lost the cat. I also asked two men, wearing bright orange vests what they were doing walking down my driveway, and they said they were from the public works, looking over my fence because they needed to know something about my neighbour's property, and he was not home. I think all of these were valid, but my point is that someone caught trespassing could come up with some plausible excuses.
My guess is that the entry route to the Sherman home would have been more risky than the exit route because there would have been more people outside walking, coming home from work, shopping etc. or just looking out a window. It is really interesting that the police say that this guy can be seen coming very close to the Sherman property, staying there during the time frame of the murders, and then leaving. If they collected video evidence in a 3 Km. radius around the house, one has to wonder where they first, or last saw him. That could provide crucial evidence if they saw him with someone else, entering or exiting a vehicle, etc. He may have also changed his appearance somehow when walking in, from the way he looked walking out, that is, different type of cap, scarf, or as someone here has wisely suggested, using a reversible coat. Perhaps that is why police drew special attention to the gait and height. I also remember that in the weeks after the murders, I read somewhere, I think in a newspaper article that police were interested in two people, a man and a woman, walking a dog in the area. That might have been a good cover on the way in, if he walked part or all of the way with someone else and a dog. Just some thoughts. IMO

 

[deugirtni]

RSBM

....I also remember that in the weeks after the murders, I read somewhere, I think in a newspaper article that police were interested in two people, a man and a woman, walking a dog in the area. That might have been a good cover on the way in, if he walked part or all of the way with someone else and a dog. Just some thoughts. IMO

I came across a snippet about the dog-walkers tonight:

Six weeks after police obtained a copy of the homeowners' video, a police detective from the homicide squad made an appointment to speak to the homeowners and came to their house on Jan. 25, 2018. The detective brought with her two photos, one showing a couple walking a dog and the other a lone woman. These photos (pictured with this story) were shown to the homeowners with no explanation, except that they were taken from other security cameras in the area.

The homeowners did not recognize the individual in either photo, but they did remark that on Monday, Dec. 11, in the early evening hours, they had noticed a man and a women they did not recognize walking on the street. The homeowners videotape from the Monday, which was turned over to police and private detectives, apparently does show a man and a women (woman is wearing a long coat and the man is tall) entering the Sherman home at 8:20 p.m. that Monday. The homeowners could not say if this was a different couple than the couple in the photo shown by the detective.

There is no suggestion that the people in the two photos were involved in the slaying — only that police were showing them around the neighbourhood, possibly in a search for witnesses to the crime.

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/...nd-honey-sherman-s-home-who-was-the-visitor-/

ETA Sorry, the above link is now defunct.. I found this one, but can't guarantee it is 100% the same wording throughout.

29 minutes inside Barry and Honey Sherman’s home: Who was the visitor? - WWWHive Digital

also this one no longer appears to be paywalled:

29 minutes inside Barry and Honey Sherman’s home: Who was the visitor?

 

[deugirtni]

This was carefully planned IMO. I suspect that the entry and exit route was walked ahead of time by someone, even if it was not the assassin. I have for instance on rare occasions seen people walking on my property, and when I went outside on my porch to ask them what they were doing, they said they were looking for a lost cat or dog. Once I could see the dog running along a fence, and the other time, I knew the guy in the neighbourhood who lost the cat. I also asked two men, wearing bright orange vests what they were doing walking down my driveway, and they said they were from the public works, looking over my fence because they needed to know something about my neighbour's property, and he was not home. I think all of these were valid, but my point is that someone caught trespassing could come up with some plausible excuses.
My guess is that the entry route to the Sherman home would have been more risky than the exit route because there would have been more people outside walking, coming home from work, shopping etc. or just looking out a window. It is really interesting that the police say that this guy can be seen coming very close to the Sherman property, staying there during the time frame of the murders, and then leaving. If they collected video evidence in a 3 Km. radius around the house, one has to wonder where they first, or last saw him. That could provide crucial evidence if they saw him with someone else, entering or exiting a vehicle, etc. He may have also changed his appearance somehow when walking in, from the way he looked walking out, that is, different type of cap, scarf, or as someone here has wisely suggested, using a reversible coat. Perhaps that is why police drew special attention to the gait and height. I also remember that in the weeks after the murders, I read somewhere, I think in a newspaper article that police were interested in two people, a man and a woman, walking a dog in the area. That might have been a good cover on the way in, if he walked part or all of the way with someone else and a dog. Just some thoughts. IMO

Good point about a potential trial run ahead of time. And also about different people with different reasons/excuses for accessing a person's yard.

 

[deugirtni]

Regarding the timing of when police believe the murders to have taken place - I wonder if this fellow and his 'travels' has been the reasoning for that determination all along? I wondered at which point it was that police stated the timeline of between 9pm and midnight? In an article published January 19th, 2018 (so only about 5 weeks after), KD was reporting between Wed evening and mid Thursday:

While the bodies were discovered on Friday, Dec. 15, it appears the Shermans died between late Wednesday Dec. 13 and Thursday afternoon, Dec. 14.
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, private investigators claim

I believe this article dated January 15, 2020 was the first time we learned that police believe they died on the Wednesday, so just around two years. Reportedly Barry wrote an email from his office at approx 8:30pm. So I think KD was simply told 'on the Wednesday', and from the times he knows of, ie that email above, and the fact that Wednesday ends at midnight, the timeline became between 9pm and midnight (or is it 8:30pm and midnight, can't remember, but he would've presumably had to drive home after the 8:30pm email, imo.). I doubt if police have elaborated any further than saying 'on the Wednesday'.. so I suppose the times this suspect was seen going into and coming from the 'defined area', is still an unknown, other than it was within the area of that timeframe. He may have left the area at 10pm.. or whatever. imo.

Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered within a few hours of arriving at their Toronto home on the evening of Wednesday, Dec. 13, 2017.

Homicide Inspector Hank Idsinga confirmed to the Star this week that “after considering a number of factors that were uncovered during the investigation” his detectives have determined the Shermans were murdered on the Wednesday. They were last seen alive in the early evening that day. Their bodies were not found until two days later.

Idsinga would not reveal what the “factors” are that have allowed police and forensic officers to pinpoint the time of death, saying that to reveal detailed information about the case would jeopardize the homicide probe, now into its third year.

Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered within hours of arriving home, Toronto police say

 

[Errrr]

First thing that surprises me is that the video footage is so far away from the murder scene. Is this correct?

Is the theory that someone limped several blocks in the cold around midnight? Do hitmen put up with that?

View attachment 326626

I would guess that one that wastes so much time making pointless arrangements at the crime scene, is inclined to anything else pointless. Maybe he left his cane on scene. Did they check that yet?

 

[dotr]

Remembering that it was Chanukah and many people in the area would likely be busy cooking for and entertaining family and visitors, or gone out of town for celebrations.
Maybe nobody was paying close attention if dogs barked in the night, or security lights flashed on and if anyone confronted a stranger walking about, he could say
they are visiting for the holidays and simply got lost. imo, speculation.
Chanukah 2017 - Hanukkah, the Jewish festival of rededication - חנוכה | Hebcal Jewish Calendar
''Chanukah (Hanukkah, the Jewish festival of rededication) for Hebrew Year 5778 began on Tuesday, 12 December 2017 and ended on Wednesday, 20 December 2017.

Hanukkah (Hebrew: חֲנֻכָּה, usually spelled חנוכה pronounced [χanuˈka] in Modern Hebrew, also romanized as Chanukah or Chanuka), also known as the Festival of Lights, is an eight-day Jewish holiday commemorating the rededication of the Holy Temple (the Second Temple) in Jerusalem at the time of the Maccabean Revolt of the 2nd century BCE.''

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

"Referred to in the Supreme Court as an assassin"

Dec 15 2021

nice one dotr!

Thinking about the entry from the backyard, in this video, at the end I see the back yard, I assume this is when they were investigating and if yes I see no footprints in the back yard. I know the driveway was heated and melted snow but the back yard would have been frozen and it snowed the 10, 11, and 12th so it would have had snow.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Sorry, one more. I feel like he's wearing a hat with a brim. Like a baseball cap. But it's winter. Does anyone else see that?

I think the whole face is covered I do not see any breathing in the air as they briskly walk in the cold air.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

RSBM

Good point.. one might imagine that traipsing through homeowners' back yards could set off all kinds of unwanted activity.. such as the motion detecting lights mentioned above.. dogs in the homes barking to alert their humans.. backyard cameras - is that unheard of in more prestigious neighbourhoods? Would a person providing all the peripheral information to the suspect necessarily know about what's in the BACK yards?

What if one of the homes contained a websleuther up in the middle of the night who'd just happened to let their dog OUT? Seems rather risky. But I guess if the perp got caught by dogs or lights, if he's not carrying weapons, he could simply say he was cutting through? His mission would be unsuccessful and incomplete, but nobody would've been the wiser as to what Plan A had been. imo.

yes agree, but we would think they would have reported the interaction 4 years ago.

 

[Window21]

From what I know about organized crime and the mob etc...is that if this was an organized hit then this could have been in the works for a year or more. They analyze every single detail, route, circumstance that may come up etc....so yes, this hit man could have walked 5 km in the cold...that's what they do....this was obviously the best plan they could come up with and so far the plan worked! It's been 4 yrs and they still don't know who did this. JMO

 

[ldlager]

Why do you say that? I looked around last night, and the one across the street... I don't know.. please explain?

The comment was made that the person intentionally turned their head towards the street to potentially avoid being filmed by cameras on the side of the street he/she was walking. I was simply pointing out that in doing so, his/her face could have been filmed by cameras across the street from the side they were walking on

 

[Satchie]

From what I know about organized crime and the mob etc...is that if this was an organized hit then this could have been in the works for a year or more. They analyze every single detail, route, circumstance that may come up etc....so yes, this hit man could have walked 5 km in the cold...that's what they do....this was obviously the best plan they could come up with and so far the plan worked! It's been 4 yrs and they still don't know who did this. JMO

Including not knowing that it's the mob.

I don't perceive what the motive would be for some kind of mafia to target both the Shermans. Do you have a plausible theory why they would do that?

I recall very similar theories about the Pike County, Ohio murders; some insisting it must have been a crack team from a Mexican cartel (because the family had a small grow-op). But it turned out to be family 'friends' with a child custody obsession.

Similarly with the Shermans, I don't see why organized crime would have any interest. Also, while others might want access to money, or have other personal reasons, they would also have to be quite psychopathic to choose this method for getting what they want.

And in that case, I think: never underestimate the capabilities of psychopaths.

JMO

 

[dotr]

From what I know about organized crime and the mob etc...is that if this was an organized hit then this could have been in the works for a year or more. They analyze every single detail, route, circumstance that may come up etc....so yes, this hit man could have walked 5 km in the cold...that's what they do....this was obviously the best plan they could come up with and so far the plan worked! It's been 4 yrs and they still don't know who did this. JMO

Just noting, fwiw-
2015
A who's who of the Montreal underworld: The mafiosi, bikers and gangsters swept up in police raids | National Post

 

[dalsglen]

To me, this is a very interesting answer (absolutely no answer, imo) BP had for this reporter's question (this is from the transcription posted upthread, of BP's press conference):
BBM:
TPHQ: Any follow-up MK?

MK: Yeah. Just one. Just wanted to know if this video has been shared with the members of the Sherman family and if they were able to give you any information to whether they know or are unable to recognize this person

DSBP: I did share with the Sherman family and as always my conversations with them will remain private but they have been very supportive and very helpful all the way through this investigation, um, and I look forward to their continued support.

From about 9:14 at this youtube of the press conference here:

one would assume if it was shared with the family and it was someone known to them they would recognise the man's gait.

That's certainly how I recognise people when out and about, can spot a person's individual gait a mile off....Though I'm not good at wearing my glasses so maybe that's why.

 

[Window21]

I don't perceive what the motive would be for some kind of mafia to target both the Shermans. Do you have a plausible theory why they would do that?

I may have worded that wrong...it may be the mob due to BS being in the pharmaceutical industry, that is big money and a ruthless industry. But I was mainly trying to connect hiring a hit man to organized crime/mod....I have no idea but if it was a professional hit then that is where I would look to hire such a person.....that was the connection I was trying to make. You can't find a professional hit man just by going into a bar etc....at least I would hope not lol..

 

[dotr]

The comment was made that the person intentionally turned their head towards the street to potentially avoid being filmed by cameras on the side of the street he/she was walking. I was simply pointing out that in doing so, his/her face could have been filmed by cameras across the street from the side they were walking on

Slight turn of the head, maybe a subtle cue for someone watching for it, ie. mission accomplished? speculation, imo.

 

[dotr]

(Fill in post rather than leave it an ''empty''dbm.)

“I would ask that you pay particular attention to the gait, or the stride, or walk style that this person has on the video,” Price said. “The individual is a suspect.”
''A C$10 million ($7.8 million) award for information on their deaths, which the family had offered in 2018, is still available, Price said. Prior to his death, Sherman was well known for his many legal tangles with competitors and family members, and was among more than a dozen companies caught up in a U.S. investigation into generic drug price-fixing. He was also being investigated by Canada’s

Read more at: Toronto Cops Air Clip of Suspect in Murder of Billionaire Couple

 

[deugirtni]

one would assume if it was shared with the family and it was someone known to them they would recognise the man's gait.

That's certainly how I recognise people when out and about, can spot a person's individual gait a mile off....Though I'm not good at wearing my glasses so maybe that's why.

My point was that BP completely avoided answering that part of the question. And I find that very interesting indeed.