CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #18

[MistyWaters]

I don't think I've ever followed a case where there are so many people who could have potential motives. From the litigious nature of the Shermans, to the convoluted family issues, from JS to KW, to slighted architects and designers, to former employees of Apotex, business rivals, and international corporations, there is no shortage of suspects. Anyone else envisioning a Murder on the Orient Express type scenario? Half joking of course but you never know if you mutually interested parties could have come together to make this happen.

I think we’re looking at a lot of characters without knowing anything at all about their personalities or background history. Thank goodness not everyone is capable of murder, even if there’s a possible motive. But this one, I’d be surprised if the killer doesn’t have a long list of violence, spiteful or malicious acts and cruelty in his past.

 

[branmuffin]

Thinking of how some organizations deal with people who owe them several million, never mind someone who owes a $billion and declares that he has no intention of paying it! imo.
On the other hand, what if (just as in the case linked here,) someone associated with the Shermans, owes big bucks to some bigger ducks and they target the Shermans instead? imo, speculation.rbbm. fwiw.
Was a Roncesvalles restaurateur killed over someone else’s $5 million cocaine debt to the Sinaloa cartel?
By Peter Edwards Feb. 13, 2022
''Paolo Caputo was eager to sell his wine bar in Toronto’s west end on Roncesvalles Avenue, near Grenadier Road.
Caputo wanted $249,000 for it, which seemed a reasonable price for the Domani, 3,486 square feet and fully air-conditioned.''

''It had been a few years since Montreal Mafia boss Vito Rizzuto was a regular at Paolo Caputo’s now-closed Forest Hill restaurant.''

''The Wolfpack is multi-ethnic, with links to a variety of organized crime groups from across the country''

''They display computer skills, a profound sense of entitlement, and impatience over things like unpaid debts and unresolved grievances.''

''Raposo was shot dead in broad daylight by a Wolfpack hit man disguised as a construction worker while watching Euro Cup soccer on TV on a crowded College Street patio in June 2012.''
''According to police and underworld sources, the cartel had grown frustrated with repeated attempts to collect on the $5 million debt.
In gentler times, not so long ago, they might have kidnapped someone to speed up the payment.
Now murder was more the norm.''
''Cartels now have access to killers inside Canada, Najera said.''

I just want to clarify that the Roncesvalles restaurant and the Forest Hill restaurant are in two different locations in Toronto

 

[Lexiintoronto]

This is long, (sorry) and just repeats what we know. The ‘too long, didn’t read’ version is just my question if you have a theory about why the clues and staging were left as they were.

I’ve read a few links some have posted and read papers on it—but it doesn’t make sense to me. This is the part that bugs me about the case because I think how he left the scene says a lot about him.

Does anyone have a theory that explain the details we know to be true?

(Information below based on KD’s writing.)

-killed between 9:00 pm - 12:00 midnight. The killer is caught on video approaching and leaving an area close to the home, but the police haven’t announced a tighter timeline, so it’s possible the killer spent hours in the home
-both wearing shoes
-both wearing light winter coats, pulled down at the back which kept their arms behind them
-marks on their wrists that show they were tightly restrained prior to being killed
-restraints consistent with zip ties
-no restraints found at the scene
-killed with a thin ligature consistent with zip ties
-in a seated position, feet almost touching a wall
-backs to the pool
-both had mens’ black belts around their necks, tied to a railing that was 3’ high (1 metre). KD believes they were belts purchased from Canadian Tire. Barry wore one to work that day, the other was upstairs on the top floor on a padded seat
-the belts simply held them in position and from falling back into the pool. They were not the murder weapons, according to KD
-Honey had a facial injury, sustained just prior, or shortly after, being killed
-Honey was bleeding at some point from her nose, possibly from being strangled. KD wrote that both victims had blood on them
-Barry had no other injuries other than from both ligatures. He was staged ‘in repose’, glasses in place, one leg crossed over the other

Pool area:
I pointed to what I think is the camera. (Not operational.)


The red box is the approximate area they were found, according to KD. (imo)
Note there’s a thin, what I believe is a light-weight pool hose on the floor under the arrow
-lights were off in the basement, the pool lights emitted a glow (the realtor turned the lights on as she went through. It was a dark basement.) So, the killer either had his own light source and the basement lights were off, or he turned off the lights before he left
-only basement door to the exterior was found unlocked
-front window in basement was found opened about 6”. (Possibly left open be painters that worked at the home that day. But note it was about -13°C that night and snowing with some accumulation)

Home:
Side door was locked where Honey likely entered, but the alarm was not on (unusual, but they may not have set it until going to bed.) In the photos of the home, there is what looks like an alarm panel and intercom (imo) in the master bedroom


-Honey’s iphone found in front powder room on the floor
—Barry’s gloves and a thick sheaf of papers (home inspection for their home) were found by the door leading to the underground garage, where Barry likely entered after parking his car
-Barry’s phone was found ‘close by’ the bodies, according to KD

Unknown:
-where was Honey’s purse and shopping found?
-who did the killer think would find them? Did it matter to him? I read that most often, if the scene is staged the killer will either ‘discover’ the victims or will enlist the ‘help’ of someone who will discover the victims. This was a bit of a wild card:
-Honey’s assistant was away, Honey missed a scheduled meeting and Barry missed work on Thursday: all unusual for them. Someone may have wanted to check for them at home
-Someone not identified was there on Thursday morning, but we don’t know why (the police do.)
-their home was for sale, a showing could have happened on Thursday, and we know one did on Friday which led to the discovery of their bodies
-the housekeeper and personal trainer arrived as usual on Friday morning, but didn’t thoroughly check the house. Both expected Honey to be there
-a furnace repair person arrived on Friday for regular maintenance. But the furnaces were on the opposite end of the basement to where the pool was and he had no reason to go to the pool area
-Of all the relatives in town and available, Alex, Jonathon or Kaelen seem to be the most likely to have checked. (Alex is more likely, imo. But she had just had a baby.)
-A neighbour told the Star that the police came to their home on Thursday morning (around the time the visitor was at the Sherman home) and told them a 911 call came from their home. Could the killer have somehow made the call, but to the wrong address? Maybe they wanted the Shermans to be found by LE.


* house photos from houssmax.ca and An ‘urban explorer’ entered Barry and Honey Sherman’s home before demolition and saw papers that ‘looked like evidence’

 

[MistyWaters]

This is long, (sorry) and just repeats what we know. The ‘too long, didn’t read’ version is just my question if you have a theory about why the clues and staging were left as they were.

I’ve read a few links some have posted and read papers on it—but it doesn’t make sense to me. This is the part that bugs me about the case because I think how he left the scene says a lot about him.

Does anyone have a theory that explain the details we know to be true?

(Information below based on KD’s writing.)

-killed between 9:00 pm - 12:00 midnight. The killer is caught on video approaching and leaving an area close to the home, but the police haven’t announced a tighter timeline, so it’s possible the killer spent hours in the home
-both wearing shoes
-both wearing light winter coats, pulled down at the back which kept their arms behind them
-marks on their wrists that show they were tightly restrained prior to being killed
-restraints consistent with zip ties
-no restraints found at the scene
-killed with a thin ligature consistent with zip ties
-in a seated position, feet almost touching a wall
-backs to the pool
-both had mens’ black belts around their necks, tied to a railing that was 3’ high (1 metre). KD believes they were belts purchased from Canadian Tire. Barry wore one to work that day, the other was upstairs on the top floor on a padded seat
-the belts simply held them in position and from falling back into the pool. They were not the murder weapons, according to KD
-Honey had a facial injury, sustained just prior, or shortly after, being killed
-Honey was bleeding at some point from her nose, possibly from being strangled. KD wrote that both victims had blood on them
-Barry had no other injuries other than from both ligatures. He was staged ‘in repose’, glasses in place, one leg crossed over the other

Pool area:
I pointed to what I think is the camera. (Not operational.)

View attachment 333513
The red box is the approximate area they were found, according to KD. (imo)
Note there’s a thin, what I believe is a light-weight pool hose on the floor under the arrow
-lights were off in the basement, the pool lights emitted a glow (the realtor turned the lights on as she went through. It was a dark basement.) So, the killer either had his own light source and the basement lights were off, or he turned off the lights before he left
-only basement door to the exterior was found unlocked
-front window in basement was found opened about 6”. (Possibly left open be painters that worked at the home that day. But note it was about -13°C that night and snowing with some accumulation)

Home:
Side door was locked where Honey likely entered, but the alarm was not on (unusual, but they may not have set it until going to bed.) In the photos of the home, there is what looks like an alarm panel and intercom (imo) in the master bedroom

View attachment 333514
-Honey’s iphone found in front powder room on the floor
—Barry’s gloves and a thick sheaf of papers (home inspection for their home) were found by the door leading to the underground garage, where Barry likely entered after parking his car
-Barry’s phone was found ‘close by’ the bodies, according to KD

Unknown:
-where was Honey’s purse and shopping found?
-who did the killer think would find them? Did it matter to him? I read that most often, if the scene is staged the killer will either ‘discover’ the victims or will enlist the ‘help’ of someone who will discover the victims. This was a bit of a wild card:
-Honey’s assistant was away, Honey missed a scheduled meeting and Barry missed work on Thursday: all unusual for them. Someone may have wanted to check for them at home
-Someone not identified was there on Thursday morning, but we don’t know why (the police do.)
-their home was for sale, a showing could have happened on Thursday, and we know one did on Friday which led to the discovery of their bodies
-the housekeeper and personal trainer arrived as usual on Friday morning, but didn’t thoroughly check the house. Both expected Honey to be there
-a furnace repair person arrived on Friday for regular maintenance. But the furnaces were on the opposite end of the basement to where the pool was and he had no reason to go to the pool area
-Of all the relatives in town and available, Alex, Jonathon or Kaelen seem to be the most likely to have checked. (Alex is more likely, imo. But she had just had a baby.)
-A neighbour told the Star that the police came to their home on Thursday morning (around the time the visitor was at the Sherman home) and told them a 911 call came from their home. Could the killer have somehow made the call, but to the wrong address? Maybe they wanted the Shermans to be found by LE.


* house photos from houssmax.ca and An ‘urban explorer’ entered Barry and Honey Sherman’s home before demolition and saw papers that ‘looked like evidence’

Good examples, I’ve no answer for that other than I doubt this killer was mentally well balanced. What might be meaningful to somebody who’s deranged makes no sense to others.

I don’t have a source but I recall reading somewhere that the person who discovers a murder victim quite often proves to be the killer. But about the discovery of the staged bodies, I’m by no means suggesting the realtor should be suspect but for that reason I really do wonder if somebody other than her who was close to the Shermans was expected to drop by the house and that person/s perhaps phoned in advance and believed nobody to be home. Because I’m still puzzled why the cleaner, plant tender, trainer et al would be scheduled if Honey had known a viewing was going to take place at the same time that same Friday. JMO

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Good examples, I’ve no answer for that other than I doubt this killer was mentally well balanced. What might be meaningful to somebody who’s deranged makes no sense to others.

I don’t have a source but I recall reading somewhere that the person who discovers a murder victim quite often proves to be the killer. But about the discovery of the staged bodies, I’m by no means suggesting the realtor should be suspect but for that reason I really do wonder if somebody other than her who was close to the Shermans was expected to drop by the house and that person/s perhaps phoned in advance and believed nobody to be home. Because I’m still puzzled why the cleaner, plant tender, trainer et al would be scheduled if Honey had known a viewing was going to take place at the same time that same Friday. JMO

Realtor Stern showed up at around 10:45 am. If the booking was approved by Honey, maybe she thought the morning activities would be done by that time. Only the plant-waterer arrived after Stern found the Shermans.

Maybe the killer was/is on drugs and/or insane as you said and there may be no logic to what appears to be a botched, staged m/s.

 

[juli99]

Good examples, I’ve no answer for that other than I doubt this killer was mentally well balanced. What might be meaningful to somebody who’s deranged makes no sense to others.

I don’t have a source but I recall reading somewhere that the person who discovers a murder victim quite often proves to be the killer. But about the discovery of the staged bodies, I’m by no means suggesting the realtor should be suspect but for that reason I really do wonder if somebody other than her who was close to the Shermans was expected to drop by the house and that person/s perhaps phoned in advance and believed nobody to be home. Because I’m still puzzled why the cleaner, plant tender, trainer et al would be scheduled if Honey had known a viewing was going to take place at the same time that same Friday. JMO

I might be misremembering, but I thought in KD's book it was stated that the realtor tried to reach Honey but could not. Instead, they got a hold of her sister to arrange the showing on Friday. But that doesn't sound right to me now, if her sister couldn't reach her would she not have gone to the house?

ETA - Never mind - I see now that the call to the sister was on the Friday morning.

 

[MistyWaters]

I might be misremembering, but I thought in KD's book it was stated that the realtor tried to reach Honey but could not. Instead, they got a hold of her sister to arrange the showing on Friday. But that doesn't sound right to me now, if her sister couldn't reach her would she not have gone to the house?

I may have a poor memory but I think the sister was away although obviously she could be reached by phone as that’s who the realtor called.

 

[juli99]

I may have a poor memory but I think the sister was away although obviously she could be reached by phone as that’s who the realtor called.

Thanks - I just found it. She was in Florida - and that call was not to arrange the showing, it was to report the deaths.

Barry and Honey Sherman’s bodies were found posed like the sculptures in their basement

"The Shermans’ realtor then called Honey’s sister, Mary Shechtman, who was in Florida and had been trying to reach Honey that morning. The realtor then called police."

 

[juli99]

This is long, (sorry) and just repeats what we know. The ‘too long, didn’t read’ version is just my question if you have a theory about why the clues and staging were left as they were.

I’ve read a few links some have posted and read papers on it—but it doesn’t make sense to me. This is the part that bugs me about the case because I think how he left the scene says a lot about him.

Does anyone have a theory that explain the details we know to be true?

(Information below based on KD’s writing.)

-killed between 9:00 pm - 12:00 midnight. The killer is caught on video approaching and leaving an area close to the home, but the police haven’t announced a tighter timeline, so it’s possible the killer spent hours in the home
-both wearing shoes
-both wearing light winter coats, pulled down at the back which kept their arms behind them
-marks on their wrists that show they were tightly restrained prior to being killed
-restraints consistent with zip ties
-no restraints found at the scene
-killed with a thin ligature consistent with zip ties
-in a seated position, feet almost touching a wall
-backs to the pool
-both had mens’ black belts around their necks, tied to a railing that was 3’ high (1 metre). KD believes they were belts purchased from Canadian Tire. Barry wore one to work that day, the other was upstairs on the top floor on a padded seat
-the belts simply held them in position and from falling back into the pool. They were not the murder weapons, according to KD
-Honey had a facial injury, sustained just prior, or shortly after, being killed
-Honey was bleeding at some point from her nose, possibly from being strangled. KD wrote that both victims had blood on them
-Barry had no other injuries other than from both ligatures. He was staged ‘in repose’, glasses in place, one leg crossed over the other

Pool area:
I pointed to what I think is the camera. (Not operational.)

View attachment 333513
The red box is the approximate area they were found, according to KD. (imo)
Note there’s a thin, what I believe is a light-weight pool hose on the floor under the arrow
-lights were off in the basement, the pool lights emitted a glow (the realtor turned the lights on as she went through. It was a dark basement.) So, the killer either had his own light source and the basement lights were off, or he turned off the lights before he left
-only basement door to the exterior was found unlocked
-front window in basement was found opened about 6”. (Possibly left open be painters that worked at the home that day. But note it was about -13°C that night and snowing with some accumulation)

Home:
Side door was locked where Honey likely entered, but the alarm was not on (unusual, but they may not have set it until going to bed.) In the photos of the home, there is what looks like an alarm panel and intercom (imo) in the master bedroom

View attachment 333514
-Honey’s iphone found in front powder room on the floor
—Barry’s gloves and a thick sheaf of papers (home inspection for their home) were found by the door leading to the underground garage, where Barry likely entered after parking his car
-Barry’s phone was found ‘close by’ the bodies, according to KD

Unknown:
-where was Honey’s purse and shopping found?
-who did the killer think would find them? Did it matter to him? I read that most often, if the scene is staged the killer will either ‘discover’ the victims or will enlist the ‘help’ of someone who will discover the victims. This was a bit of a wild card:
-Honey’s assistant was away, Honey missed a scheduled meeting and Barry missed work on Thursday: all unusual for them. Someone may have wanted to check for them at home
-Someone not identified was there on Thursday morning, but we don’t know why (the police do.)
-their home was for sale, a showing could have happened on Thursday, and we know one did on Friday which led to the discovery of their bodies
-the housekeeper and personal trainer arrived as usual on Friday morning, but didn’t thoroughly check the house. Both expected Honey to be there
-a furnace repair person arrived on Friday for regular maintenance. But the furnaces were on the opposite end of the basement to where the pool was and he had no reason to go to the pool area
-Of all the relatives in town and available, Alex, Jonathon or Kaelen seem to be the most likely to have checked. (Alex is more likely, imo. But she had just had a baby.)
-A neighbour told the Star that the police came to their home on Thursday morning (around the time the visitor was at the Sherman home) and told them a 911 call came from their home. Could the killer have somehow made the call, but to the wrong address? Maybe they wanted the Shermans to be found by LE.


* house photos from houssmax.ca and An ‘urban explorer’ entered Barry and Honey Sherman’s home before demolition and saw papers that ‘looked like evidence’

I never thought about Honey's purse - good question. I did wonder if Barry carried a briefcase and if so where it was found.

I wonder in most staged cases if the discovery by the person who did it is often because they live in the same home, and don't have much choice? What would be the motivation to be the one to discover the body otherwise? To me it just puts a big red flag on that person.

 

[newclues]

“In that case, he asked that trustees hold his entire estate in trust and pay “the net annual income derived therefrom” to Honey Sherman “in quarterly instalments.

He also gives his trustees “absolute and unfettered discretion” to provide Honey Sherman with additional payments from his estate to provide for her “comfortable maintenance and benefit” as they deem fit.”
Slain billionaire Barry Sherman divided estate equally among four children

She would have received a fortune every three months, imo. The trustees would have had the power to give her more money than the quarterly instalments, and 3 out of 4 trustees were her allies. JS was her opposition, according to KD, but she essentially controlled the money. If *he* wanted money, he’d have to ask her, then the majority of the trustees would have to approve it. Based on what we see now, I don’t think they’d support him or Adam.

Just from KD’s reporting, JS was in a world of financial debt and I don’t think Honey would have enabled more debt. I think she’d make him accountable and would have called in his loans he promised to repay.

His failure with Steelback was headline news in the business sector. Imagine the news if Green Storage and his Harlo companies had to be sold off or collapsed due to his debt.

That is why LE was interested in the arrangements of the wills due to the fact that BS and HS were both murdered. Was someone interested in not having HS will overtake BS's will?

 

[MistyWaters]

I never thought about Honey's purse - good question. I did wonder if Barry carried a briefcase and if so where it was found.

I wonder in most staged cases if the discovery by the person who did it is often because they live in the same home, and don't have much choice? What would be the motivation to be the one to discover the body otherwise? To me it just puts a big red flag on that person.

I’ll do some searching to see what I can find but iirc correctly the reason for that is the killer giving themselves the opportunity of acting as if he or she is utterly shocked and very distraught to a great degree, so they believe they wouldn’t be looked upon as a suspect. This perhaps flows along with the psychopathic personality who is driven to become directly involved in situations in which they’ve intentionally created, unbeknown to others.

 

[ldlager]

I might be misremembering, but I thought in KD's book it was stated that the realtor tried to reach Honey but could not. Instead, they got a hold of her sister to arrange the showing on Friday. But that doesn't sound right to me now, if her sister couldn't reach her would she not have gone to the house?

ETA - Never mind - I see now that the call to the sister was on the Friday morning.

I believe you are correct, that the realtor couldn't reach HS to set up the viewing.
And in any event, HS sister MS, was already in Florida enjoying her vacation.

 

[WINDSOR]

Or perhaps all his debt was forgiven. We don't know unfortunately what his terms were with BS

Knowing Barry's propensity for legal contracts, I believe at least some of the debt would survive Barry's death. Now if the debt ceased to exist with Barry's death, that creates a possible motive.

 

[juli99]

I’ll do some searching to see what I can find but iirc correctly the reason for that is the killer giving themselves the opportunity of acting as if he or she is utterly shocked and very distraught to a great degree, so they believe they wouldn’t be looked upon as a suspect. This perhaps flows along with the psychopathic personality who is driven to become directly involved in situations in which they’ve intentionally created, unbeknown to others.

So perhaps we can conclude then that the person behind this is not that type of killer, and didn't care who discovered the bodies. Or... they were someone who had no plausible reason to be in the house or to have someone else go to the house.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

So perhaps we can conclude then that the person behind this is not that type of killer, and didn't care who discovered the bodies. Or... they were someone who had no plausible reason to be in the house or to have someone else go to the house.

If the killer did want to prompt someone to go to the Shermans’ to find the bodies, he’d need to be in the loop of people who could note the Shermans’ absence and make it known.

So far we only know the real estate agents and Mary were discussing together that they couldn’t reach Honey.

I was wondering why the killer turned off the lights in the home. If someone close to them were to drop by the home on Wednesday night, or Thursday after 5:00 pm it would be dark out. No lights on would make it appear the Shermans weren’t there. (Both of the Shermans were night owls according to KD.)

 

[dotr]

FWIW, noting 0/t but relatable imo.
Reminded of a forgotten cold case thread i started which concerns a 71 yr old Toronto psychic from Germany, who was murdered in his own home as the real estate agent was showing it to a couple .
Unlike the Shermans, the victim was not a billionaire, but he did advise the rich and famous, including politicians. Some say he knew too much and was killed for it.
Similar to BS, he predicted years prior that someone might kill him and he too, openly spoke about that possibility.
CANADA - Canada - Alfred Schmielewski, 71, Mississauga, 11 April 1999 (websleuths.com)

 

[MistyWaters]

If the killer did want to prompt someone to go to the Shermans’ to find the bodies, he’d need to be in the loop of people who could note the Shermans’ absence and make it known.

So far we only know the real estate agents and Mary were discussing together that they couldn’t reach Honey.

I was wondering why the killer turned off the lights in the home. If someone close to them were to drop by the home on Wednesday night, or Thursday after 5:00 pm it would be dark out. No lights on would make it appear the Shermans weren’t there. (Both of the Shermans were night owls according to KD.)

I recall at one point it appeared the pool room was chosen because the lights on wouldn’t be obvious from the street, but maybe I’m wrong. But if the murders occurred as late as midnight the killer likely wouldn’t was to risk someone noticing anything unusual or unexpectedly dropping by and that’s probably why the house lights were shut off as the murder was occurring, and stayed off IMO.

 

[ldlager]

If the killer did want to prompt someone to go to the Shermans’ to find the bodies, he’d need to be in the loop of people who could note the Shermans’ absence and make it known.

So far we only know the real estate agents and Mary were discussing together that they couldn’t reach Honey.

I was wondering why the killer turned off the lights in the home. If someone close to them were to drop by the home on Wednesday night, or Thursday after 5:00 pm it would be dark out. No lights on would make it appear the Shermans weren’t there. (Both of the Shermans were night owls according to KD.)

Or if he/she wanted to prompt someone to go to the house, he/she could also call 911, either directly or using some technology that made it uncertain which house in the area the call came from.

 

[Satchie]

Knowing Barry's propensity for legal contracts, I believe at least some of the debt would survive Barry's death. Now if the debt ceased to exist with Barry's death, that creates a possible motive.

I agree, I don't believe these debts were personal loans from Barry's bank account to JS's bank account, IMO it would all be done through companies, everyone in business does it this way: companies have limited liability - the company can go bankrupt but that doesn't affect the owner's personal wealth, and doesn't affect any other companies they may own and control. There's no limit to the number of companies you can create, these days each one is set up for a different project or even just to loan money for a particular project.

I'm sure this has been mentioned, but just wanted to reinforce it.

JMO

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Or if he/she wanted to prompt someone to go to the house, he/she could also call 911, either directly or using some technology that made it uncertain which house in the area the call came from.

How would Alex, just to use an example, know police were on the street? Unless she called a neighbour to check on them…maybe that neighbour who had the 911 call knew the Shermans?

Somewhat related is that KW said he heard ‘radio reports’ of a police car in Forest Hill after the bodies were found. From KD’s book:


It’s a small point, but KD said one police officer went Alex’s home in the evening to update them. I’ve never heard a radio report of a police car making a stop in a specific location in Toronto—there are police everywhere and they make stops all through their shifts.

ETA: Maybe the killer was listening to the police scanners on Friday Thursday . He possibly engineered the 911 call and wanted to hear police being called to respond to Old Colony. Part of this might be a disdain for the police, and things he did were to frustrate them.