Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #2

[JDG]

No that is not a fact, it is conjecture on the part of her sister. Maybe even an exaggeration on the sisters part since it seems that Barry was not helpless. The man worked long hours often 7 days a week.

On the other hand if what the sister says is true, it could be that Barry had dementia or alzheimers. In that case he could have had an onset in the night and not known who she was, mistaking her for a burglar or someone trying to kill him. Later realizing what he did he killed himself.

JMO

Mary was recounting a story about Honey being away, she was asked to keep an eye on Barry, help him out. He called her and she said, 'I had to help him with his clothes, everything, down to his socks'! Her thought was 'is this brilliance'? It is a fact in that it came directly from a lady who had the experience with BS. Other 'sources' have stated that he needed help dressing and Honey picked his food for him, directed him on what to eat. Yes, he was brilliant at working all hours, that seems to have been his life. He was known to take work with him on family vacations.....but had problems getting dressed/selecting foods. IMO he didn't care how he dressed or what he ate. Its not necessarily neurological, he just didn't care.

 

[catdctr]

I wonder how reliable post mortem analysis is to distinguish between manual strangulation and ligature compression? I understand they typically look for fractures of the larynx etc but I wonder if you can hide signs of strangulation using a wider ligature tool (like a belt vs. rope)?

 

[JDG]

If determined a murder...I am curious what people think police might do to solve it they would not do for the average joe. I believe LE does its best by all murder victims, but jmo.

There are 2 investigations, TPS and the private one paid for by the family. Possibly, one or the other will come up with an answer at some point.

My sense is that this will be a crime where they can theorize, maybe even know what has occurred but do not have enough proof to prosecute.

Hope I am wrong.

 

[Inthedetails]

I wonder how reliable post mortem analysis is to distinguish between manual strangulation and ligature compression? I understand they typically look for fractures of the larynx etc but I wonder if you can hide signs of strangulation using a wider ligature tool (like a belt vs. rope)?

If she died elsewhere, as may be the case, I don't think he could hide how she was strangled as COD. I think the ME would be able to differentiate what injuries happened before death and what happened after death.

I admit this is a guess on my part, based on my Forensic File and WS experience only. JMOpinion - take it or leave it.

 

[AllyJane]

Suicide would NOT appeal to the Shermans, not at all. The Jewish traditions are to save life, not take it. Obviously, they understand that many suicides are the result of mental illnesses but to think that Barry would kill Honey for ANY reason, is absurd. They have both had bouts of cancer, had surgery and treatment and were, apparently, fine. The Jewish tradition is absolutely against suicide, the body belongs to G_d, so if one takes ones life, its like taking the authority away from G_d. Now, I know Barry stated he was an atheist and had no time for organized religion. He even wrote about it, argued about it. BUT, he was still raised in the Jewish traditions as were his children. Traditions run deep. IMO

To add to this point, Jewish cemeteries do not allow people who died by suicide to be buried within the deceased community of the cemetery. If you ever go to a traditional Jewish cemetery and see headstones around the perimeter of the cemetery where there aren't other graves, those are the ones that committed suicide. It is considered a sin and you are ostracized even in death. If it were a murder suicide, then BS would risk not being buried next to Honey and would bring shame on the family. I know its been stated he wasnt religious but I would imagine this would be a concern for him. As a child of Holocaust survivors as Honey was, the Jewish identity would likely have been ingrained in that family. I am not saying Jews don't commit suicide but it is a perspective to consider.

 

[catdctr]

To add to this point, Jewish cemeteries do not allow people who died by suicide to be buried within the deceased community of the cemetery. If you ever go to a traditional Jewish cemetery and see headstones around the perimeter of the cemetery where there aren't other graves, those are the ones that committed suicide. It is considered a sin and you are ostracized even in death. If it were a murder suicide, then BS would risk not being buried next to Honey and would bring shame on the family. I know its been stated he wasnt religious but I would imagine this would be a concern for him. As a child of Holocaust survivors as Honey was, the Jewish identity would likely have been ingrained in that family. I am not saying Jews don't commit suicide but it is a perspective to consider.

I can't imagine any Jewish cemetery refusing to bury the Shermans - especially If the suicide isn't proven. I doubt he was thinking about this at the time as he would have had other concerns on his mind like his family/legacy. Again, I am not sure of anything here but I don't think that give the circumstances this was a priority concern.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Suicide would NOT appeal to the Shermans, not at all. The Jewish traditions are to save life, not take it. Obviously, they understand that many suicides are the result of mental illnesses but to think that Barry would kill Honey for ANY reason, is absurd. They have both had bouts of cancer, had surgery and treatment and were, apparently, fine. The Jewish tradition is absolutely against suicide, the body belongs to G_d, so if one takes ones life, its like taking the authority away from G_d. Now, I know Barry stated he was an atheist and had no time for organized religion. He even wrote about it, argued about it. BUT, he was still raised in the Jewish traditions as were his children. Traditions run deep. IMO

I think its important to understand things in context, thats why I have posted this. IMO its vital to understand, no longer for Barry and Honey but for their family.

For the person who posted that maybe Honey had had a new, poor diagnosis and he had killed her to prevent suffering, I appreciate that that is your opinion. I have lost two very dear people to cancer, extremely poor diagnoses from the start and not once did anyone suggest we commit suicide to avoid what was ahead. Religion didn't enter into it in any way. We just decided, to make the most of every moment we had left. Every second became more precious, as we knew it was ending very soon. JMO

BBM

For the person who posted that maybe Honey had had a new, poor diagnosis and he had killed her to prevent suffering, I appreciate that that is your opinion.

That was me who suggested it and it has happened many times before. Read up on Dr Kavorkain. There have been many instances in elderly people where one receives a poor diagnosis and the other kills them to end their suffering. But this is purely speculation on my part and you should take it as such. Just a theory.

Suicide would NOT appeal to the Shermans, not at all.
but to think that Barry would kill Honey for ANY reason, is absurd.

As for the rest of this, you seem to be making some very emphatic statements concerning what the Shermans or Barry would or would not do. So strong are your protests that it would in fact almost imply that you knew them both personally.

So if you did not know them personally and did not live in the home with them, I would suggest that to emphatically state what they would or would not do is very misleading.

For myself I would not emphatically state that someone I did not know personally (or indeed someone I did know personally) would never do something. Because the only thing you can count on in regards to other people's actions is that you never know what anyone else would do given the right circumstances. The takeaway from this is sometimes even those who are closest to you and who you think you know the best can at times surprise you by their actions.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Mary was recounting a story about Honey being away, she was asked to keep an eye on Barry, help him out. He called her and she said, 'I had to help him with his clothes, everything, down to his socks'! Her thought was 'is this brilliance'? It is a fact in that it came directly from a lady who had the experience with BS. Other 'sources' have stated that he needed help dressing and Honey picked his food for him, directed him on what to eat. Yes, he was brilliant at working all hours, that seems to have been his life. He was known to take work with him on family vacations.....but had problems getting dressed/selecting foods. IMO he didn't care how he dressed or what he ate. Its not necessarily neurological, he just didn't care.

BBM

When you state he had problems getting dressed, was he paralyzed or did he have trouble moving his arms or hands in a way that would have made it impossible to get dressed by himself?

If not then he was plenty capable of dressing himself and picking out his own clothes and knowing where his belts were kept.

Not to argue with you but the fact that he may have been colorblind or not color coordinated or dressed in a fashion that indicated that he didn't care whether he wore his pajamas or a suit to work did not preclude the fact that he could not only dress himself but knew exactly where his belts were.

It might be a fact that the statement came from Mary (the sister) but it is not a fact that he could not dress himself since obviously he could operate a phone to call her and drive a car to work.

 

[human]

BBM

When you state he had problems getting dressed, was he paralyzed or did he have trouble moving his arms or hands in a way that would have made it impossible to get dressed by himself?

If not then he was plenty capable of dressing himself and picking out his own clothes and knowing where his belts were kept.

Not to argue with you but the fact that he may have been colorblind or not color coordinated or dressed in a fashion that indicated that he didn't care whether he wore his pajamas or a suit to work did not preclude the fact that he could not only dress himself but knew exactly where his belts were.

It might be a fact that the statement came from Mary (the sister) but it is not a fact that he could not dress himself since obviously he could operate a phone to call her and drive a car to work.

It is an interesting idea. Since they had huge closets, he would deduce that the belts were in the closet.

I know that we possess certain things but if I do not care about them, it does not imply that I couldn’t use a wrench, for instance.

I would have an idea of where one may be.

No one is implying that he is incapable, merely that he is not interested.

He is not interested in small talk. He is not interested in clothing or food or cars.

 

[DarkSkink]

Suicide would NOT appeal to the Shermans, not at all. The Jewish traditions are to save life, not take it. Obviously, they understand that many suicides are the result of mental illnesses but to think that Barry would kill Honey for ANY reason, is absurd. They have both had bouts of cancer, had surgery and treatment and were, apparently, fine. The Jewish tradition is absolutely against suicide, the body belongs to G_d, so if one takes ones life, its like taking the authority away from G_d. Now, I know Barry stated he was an atheist and had no time for organized religion. He even wrote about it, argued about it. BUT, he was still raised in the Jewish traditions as were his children. Traditions run deep. IMO

I think its important to understand things in context, thats why I have posted this. IMO its vital to understand, no longer for Barry and Honey but for their family.

For the person who posted that maybe Honey had had a new, poor diagnosis and he had killed her to prevent suffering, I appreciate that that is your opinion. I have lost two very dear people to cancer, extremely poor diagnoses from the start and not once did anyone suggest we commit suicide to avoid what was ahead. Religion didn't enter into it in any way. We just decided, to make the most of every moment we had left. Every second became more precious, as we knew it was ending very soon. JMO

Being Religious is not any sort of indication of being able to kill or not, regardless of the faith. Some could argue being religious makes you more apt to kill than not.

What one individual or family does with bad news doesn't apply to others. As with everything, there are commonalities, then there are the individual characteristics influenced by the individuals involved.

Perhaps those saying there was no way he would kill her in anger are right. Perhaps they are "lock and key" and were soul mates. Perhaps there was a mercy component.

 

[pamelado2]

Correct, the article says "police sources" say that Honey was killed elsewhere and moved to the pool.

But that statement is in MSM, which means we can discuss it. People don't have to believe the source and may prefer to wait for an official statement from a LE official on paper or on camera....but the rest of us, in the meantime, can discuss what the source said.

jmo

I wasn't saying we couldn't discuss it. I was going along with the thought that there has only been one statement actually known to be made by LE - that it was suspicious and they were looking at every possibility.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[DarkSkink]

BBM

For the person who posted that maybe Honey had had a new, poor diagnosis and he had killed her to prevent suffering, I appreciate that that is your opinion.

That was me who suggested it and it has happened many times before. Read up on Dr Kavorkain. There have been many instances in elderly people where one receives a poor diagnosis and the other kills them to end their suffering. But this is purely speculation on my part and you should take it as such. Just a theory.

Suicide would NOT appeal to the Shermans, not at all.
but to think that Barry would kill Honey for ANY reason, is absurd.

As for the rest of this, you seem to be making some very emphatic statements concerning what the Shermans or Barry would or would not do. So strong are your protests that it would in fact almost imply that you knew them both personally.

So if you did not know them personally and did not live in the home with them, I would suggest that to emphatically state what they would or would not do is very misleading.

For myself I would not emphatically state that someone I did not know personally (or indeed someone I did know personally) would never do something. Because the only thing you can count on in regards to other people's actions is that you never know what anyone else would do given the right circumstances. The takeaway from this is sometimes even those who are closest to you and who you think you know the best can at times surprise you by their actions.

JMO

Spot on.

 

[Inthedetails]

I wasn't saying we couldn't discuss it. I was going along with the thought that there has only been one statement actually known to be made by LE - that it was suspicious and they were looking at every possibility.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Okay, great. I've noticed an atmosphere on this thread in particular to try to shut down discussions that are perfectly acceptable discussions - and I didn't want this particular item to head in that direction.

If something is in MSM, we can discuss it. We don't have to necessarily believe it, but we can consider it and mull it over.

jmo

 

[2Hope4]

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33772400

Researching suicide rates among Jews, simply because it has been my personal experience that religion or tradition has NOT been a factor in those that I personally have known to commit suicide. The above link is about parents that have buried two of their Jewish sons due to suicide. They were NOT buried in the perimeter of the cemetery. These parents are working to bring awareness and acceptance towards mental illness.

It's hard to say something as concrete about really anything. Because there are cases that differ from whatever it is we believe to be facts. Kind of like someone saying "my kid NEVER ___" The next month, their child does in fact do ____.

 

[human]

Being Religious is not any sort of indication of being able to kill or not, regardless of the faith. Some could argue being religious makes you more apt to kill than not.

What one individual or family does with bad news doesn't apply to others. As with everything, there are commonalities, then there are the individual characteristics influenced by the individuals involved.

Perhaps those saying there was no way he would kill her in anger are right. Perhaps they are "lock and key" and were soul mates. Perhaps there was a mercy component.

Since Honey was murdered, she could be buried in the cemetery.

He wanted to be remembered. He said that he should put his thoughts in writing,

Whether or not he is a believer, he knows the Jewish laws. Would he for eternity want to be buried in such a way?

If he had planned a murder, suicde, I think with his brains he could have planned something better. Something that could not be interpreted as murder, suicide.

It seems if it was not a murder, murder, Honey died because of him killing her in a fit of rage or anger.

 

[DarkSkink]

To add to this point, Jewish cemeteries do not allow people who died by suicide to be buried within the deceased community of the cemetery. If you ever go to a traditional Jewish cemetery and see headstones around the perimeter of the cemetery where there aren't other graves, those are the ones that committed suicide. It is considered a sin and you are ostracized even in death. If it were a murder suicide, then BS would risk not being buried next to Honey and would bring shame on the family. I know its been stated he wasnt religious but I would imagine this would be a concern for him. As a child of Holocaust survivors as Honey was, the Jewish identity would likely have been ingrained in that family. I am not saying Jews don't commit suicide but it is a perspective to consider.

Just like the sudden thorough investigation after the family complained, don't underestimate how much great wealth can influence decision making.

I doubt LE decided to confide in the funeral directors with the investigation findings so they could bury him in the proper plot. Nor would I think the funeral directors would put him in a limbo plot to await the results. Nor would I expect them to bury him anywhere other than where the family wanted, regardless of the circumstances.

 

[JDG]

To add to this point, Jewish cemeteries do not allow people who died by suicide to be buried within the deceased community of the cemetery. If you ever go to a traditional Jewish cemetery and see headstones around the perimeter of the cemetery where there aren't other graves, those are the ones that committed suicide. It is considered a sin and you are ostracized even in death. If it were a murder suicide, then BS would risk not being buried next to Honey and would bring shame on the family. I know its been stated he wasnt religious but I would imagine this would be a concern for him. As a child of Holocaust survivors as Honey was, the Jewish identity would likely have been ingrained in that family. I am not saying Jews don't commit suicide but it is a perspective to consider.

And, they wouldn't be sitting Shiva for them if they thought for a second it was a suicide pact. Suicides are denied normal mourning rituals.
BS would never bring that kind of shame on his family, ever. From the families pov, it would be better for him to pick up the phone and turn himself in, IF he had hurt Honey.

 

[catdctr]

And, they wouldn't be sitting Shiva for them if they thought for a second it was a suicide pact. Suicides are denied normal mourning rituals.
BS would never bring that kind of shame on his family, ever. From the families pov, it would be better for him to pick up the phone and turn himself in, IF he had hurt Honey.

That is an interesting take and you may be right. But another angle is apparently all he did was work. His whole life was about his company. What would have happened to the company if he was arrested for his wife's death? The family would be doubly impacted in terms of both shame/grief but also financially I think.

 

[2Hope4]

We could guess what Barry felt about religion, or we could believe his own words... None of know what he would or wouldn't do, nor what Honey would or wouldn't do. All just guess work.

 

[DarkSkink]

And, they wouldn't be sitting Shiva for them if they thought for a second it was a suicide pact. Suicides are denied normal mourning rituals.
BS would never bring that kind of shame on his family, ever. From the families pov, it would be better for him to pick up the phone and turn himself in, IF he had hurt Honey.

Catholic Priests aren't supposed to do bad things either, but...

Long gone are the days where everyone naively believes that every individual belonging to a religion, or group, or club acts exactly the same, without bias, without selfish self-interest, and follows every club rule without excption.

It could be argued they wouldn't dare to anything that might publicly admit It was murder suicide. Without any firm answered from police, what are they supposed to do? Of course they are going to err on the side of caution or best case scenario until proven otherwise.

So yes, since it was publicly released that it may be a murder suicide, and they then complained about that analysis specifically, the thought has crossed their minds and they are aware of the possibility.