Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #3

[neesaki]

Oh good. I've done my 40 so let the good times roll now.

I can't even imagine my husband killing me and then committing suicide over it. Nor can I imagine me doing that to him or any accident occurring that would cause the same scenario. But we're not high profile billionaires so I have no idea how they would think or act.

My quiet, kind husband does have some qualities of BS without the wealthy, litigious part. Intelligent, a thinker, patents his own designs, a workaholic and an introvert and also a desk jockey with a bad back. I fell off a rickety step ladder a couple of years ago while washing windows and landed hard and broke my tail bone which left me in excruciating pain. I'm nowhere near as heavy as HS and husband could not get me off the ground. I had to roll over and crawl to a chair and get myself up. We are over 10 years younger than the Sherman's and despite his bad back he's not in terrible condition. He was completely mortified that he could not help me.

So I have trouble imagining BS dragging Honey's dead weight around and arranging her in a noose. But just because I can't imagine it doesn't mean it didn't happen. I don't know what to think about this case.

Thank you, I can’t imagine that’s what happened either. But this is a mysterious case. Still, the murder suicide theory seems off to me, such difficult and elaborate staging for one. And I somehow can’t see BS as being one to fly off the handle and lose it to cause her death. The double suicide theory is almost as hard for me to fathom, why go out in such an agonizing way? But that’s just me. Jmo

ETA: Just a second thought: One reason I can think of for double suicide: if one of them had a terminal disease... I just read that HS had throat cancer? If true maybe this could be a possibility, though still a stretch, IMO. Unless nothing was found like this in autopsy, would they release that kind of information? But then the family at least would be informed, right? Yet they’re not going along with it, so I doubt that was the case.

 

[MistyWaters]

After the new property was purchased, it would take some time for an architect to create plans and work with a builder to provide cost estimates. Then comes the demolition permit and development permit which may include variances to standard zoning, requiring additional time for approval. In my experience, these many months would be considered quite normal anywhere in Canada especially involving the intracies of this home's design.

That said, I'm curious about something reported by MSM and my apologies if this has already been discussed because if so, I missed it. I'm curious the reason it was reported that demolition was halted. Once a site is barren, what's left to halt? Or was it the new development that was being appealed?

BBM

"......Earlier this fall, the Shermans obtained building permits to demolish Mr. Green's house and construct a new two-storey detached dwelling with an integral garage.

They also listed their North York house for sale.

Demolition at the Forest Hill site began a few weeks ago but has been halted, leaving a barren site surrounded by a plywood-boarded fence in the posh neighbourhood....."
http://nationalpost.com/news/toront...after-bodies-found-in-couples-toronto-mansion

 

[Hazel]

Must admit, I am puzzled as to why the Sherman family are being allowed to pick this up given the circumstances. If proven to be a killer, it will have to be terminated AND he was deceased before he was given the award. I realize a 'decision' had been made but surely 'decisions' can be unmade or held back pending investigation of both the lobbying issue and the atrocious crime. No?

Why? I too would like to know why?

While I read the posts on this case, this song keeps popping in my head: (JMO)

[video=youtube;ETxmCCsMoD0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETxmCCsMoD0[/video]

 

[Tortoise]

After the new property was purchased, it would take some time for an architect to create plans and work with a builder to provide cost estimates. Then comes the demolition permit and development permit which may include variances to standard zoning, requiring additional time for approval. In my experience, these many months would be considered quite normal anywhere in Canada especially involving the intracies of this home's design.

That said, I'm curious about something reported by MSM and my apologies if this has already been discussed because if so, I missed it. I'm curious the reason it was reported that demolition was halted. Once a site is barren, what's left to halt? Or was it the new development that was being appealed?

BBM

"......Earlier this fall, the Shermans obtained building permits to demolish Mr. Green's house and construct a new two-storey detached dwelling with an integral garage.

They also listed their North York house for sale.

Demolition at the Forest Hill site began a few weeks ago but has been halted, leaving a barren site surrounded by a plywood-boarded fence in the posh neighbourhood....."
http://nationalpost.com/news/toront...after-bodies-found-in-couples-toronto-mansion

Since their deaths?

 

[JayFriend]

I can't help myself from being reminded of the initial suicide determination in the death of Dellen Millard's father, who's murder he was subsequently charged with. It leaves me to speculate that LE classifies deaths "non criminal" in the event of lack of obvious criminal indications at the scene, but years later that may change.

".......Did police investigate the death of Wayne Millard as a crime?

When police were called to the Etobicoke house where Wayne Millard and his son lived in November 2012, they found the elder Millard dead. After investigating, police deemed the death “not criminal” and said the gunshot wound that killed him was the result of an apparent suicide. However, after Millard and Mark Smich, 26, were arrested for Bosma’s death, the police reopened the case, and assigned homicide investigators. The coroner’s office said their investigation had been — and was — still open...."
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...s_in_the_alleged_dellen_millard_killings.html

This just shows how eager LE is to close a case and move on. I'm surprised the Millard family didn't push for a more thorough investigation, But maybe Dellen Millard was the family spokesman.

 

[JDG]

Yes that's how I see it to be as well. The sole risk to the buyer is the vendor flipping the property to more than one purchaser prior to the closing date but obviously that's not a concern amongst circles involving established and known connections, as were the two parties involved.

Because purchase proceeds and transfer taxes are paid directly to the seller at some point in advance, on the purchase date the sale becomes a zero dollar land transfer.

One of the reasons someone might not want the cost to purchase known is, so public records do not reveal purchase price. This was not the case with the home that had not yet sold, as why this --

"The couple bought the house in 1985 for $390,000, property records show."
http://nationalpost.com/news/toront...after-bodies-found-in-couples-toronto-mansion

JMO

Doesn't the money go directly to the government departments? Why would it go to the seller or their attorney?
Is it a feasible thing for the average person to do if they want privacy? Thank you.

 

[JDG]

This just shows how eager LE is to close a case and move on. I'm surprised the Millard family didn't push for a more thorough investigation, But maybe Dellen Millard was the family spokesman.

I think he was, the parents were divorced. Another wealthy family situation though and if there was nothing obvious, they'd go with whatever Millard told them. Sadly, he got to kill other innocents before being caught. Just reading the obituary for his father should have sent the police back, IMO. It was severely strange.

 

[MistyWaters]

Must admit, I am puzzled as to why the Sherman family are being allowed to pick this up given the circumstances. If proven to be a killer, it will have to be terminated AND he was deceased before he was given the award. I realize a 'decision' had been made but surely 'decisions' can be unmade or held back pending investigation of both the lobbying issue and the atrocious crime. No?

It was mentioned that the award will stand because Mr Sherman was still alive when the selection was made, therefore it's a done deal. My opinion is he should rightfully be honoured given withdrawing it at this point in time would only serve to fuel the wild speculation that abounds.

As for anyone the Governer General deems to later revoke, seven others to date:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal_from_the_Order_of_Canada

 

[JDG]

Since their deaths?

I think thats just poor reporting. There were a lot of variances, the neighbours had to be polled etc before permits could be processed.
As soon as the permits were issued, the house came down pretty quick.

 

[Tighthead]

Doesn't the money go directly to the government departments? Why would it go to the seller or their attorney?
Is it a feasible thing for the average person to do if they want privacy? Thank you.

The purchaser and their lender give gross purchase funds to their lawyers, who disperse it as required. I believe in Ontario the purchaser’s lawyer submits the taxes.

On the privacy thing there really isn’t much point, but as long as you can evidence a fair market value contract it shouldn’t be a problem.

 

[JDG]

It was mentioned that the award will stand because Mr Sherman was still alive when the selection was made, therefore it's a done deal. My opinion is he should rightfully be honoured given withdrawing it at this point in time would only serve to fuel the wild speculation that abounds.

As for anyone the Governer General deems to later revoke, seven others to date:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal_from_the_Order_of_Canada

Yes, I know what they stated but the man is dead. You cannot get the Order of Canada posthumously and death is a reason to revoke it.
This is setting a precedence, failing to follow their own rules etc, etc. When he died, he was under investigation by the very government that is issuing it. Absurd!

I see no reason to give it to his family and doubt that withdrawing it would serve to fuel the 'wild speculation' that you speak of.

If any person is given the Order of Canada, then passes away before it can be issued, it should not be given to the family in my opinion.

Any citizen of Canada can request that it be revoked.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Must admit, I am puzzled as to why the Sherman family are being allowed to pick this up given the circumstances. If proven to be a killer, it will have to be terminated AND he was deceased before he was given the award. I realize a 'decision' had been made but surely 'decisions' can be unmade or held back pending investigation of both the lobbying issue and the atrocious crime. No?

I agree with you, but I'm wondering if there's a technical loophole: since BS is dead can he be convicted of the murder if it was a murder-suicide? He can't offer a defence.

Even if there is evidence that points towards him killing HS, he is considered innocent before being proven guilty in court.

 

[JDG]

I agree with you, but I'm wondering if there's a technical loophole: since BS is dead can he be convicted of the murder if it was a murder-suicide? He can't offer a defence.

Even if there is evidence that points towards him killing HS, he is considered innocent before being proven guilty in court.

You are correct, he cannot be found guilty of murder now. But he may be found guilty on the lobbying investigation as thats already in front of the court and has, as far as I know, no punishment other than banning him from lobbying for five years. A moot point now.

 

[kiwi50]

Yes, I know what they stated but the man is dead. You cannot get the Order of Canada posthumously and death is a reason to revoke it.
This is setting a precedence, failing to follow their own rules etc, etc. When he died, he was under investigation by the very government that is issuing it. Absurd!

I see no reason to give it to his family and doubt that withdrawing it would serve to fuel the 'wild speculation' that you speak of.

If any person is given the Order of Canada, then passes away before it can be issued, it should not be given to the family in my opinion.

Any citizen of Canada can request that it be revoked.

There might be more than a few lining up to try and have his honour revoked. Would be interesting to see who nominated him, what their thoughts are now.

 

[JDG]

Thank you, I can’t imagine that’s what happened either. But this is a mysterious case. Still, the murder suicide theory seems off to me, such difficult and elaborate staging for one. And I somehow can’t see BS as being one to fly off the handle and lose it to cause her death. The double suicide theory is almost as hard for me to fathom, why go out in such an agonizing way? But that’s just me. Jmo

ETA: Just a second thought: One reason I can think of for double suicide: if one of them had a terminal disease... I just read that HS had throat cancer? If true maybe this could be a possibility, though still a stretch, IMO. Unless nothing was found like this in autopsy, would they release that kind of information? But then the family at least would be informed, right? Yet they’re not going along with it, so I doubt that was the case.

BS had a history of prostate cancer, about a decade ago. So both had had cancer, had treatment and were considered to be 'okay'.
It was in the Toronto Star or Toronto Life shortly after the bodies were found.

 

[dotr]

Re post.
https://www.cp24.com/news/family-of...intment-speaks-volumes-about-father-1.3740301
December 30, 2017

“To receive this honour posthumously speaks volumes about our father and confirms what we have always known, he was a true humanitarian and a great Canadian,” the statement from Sherman’s family reads. “We take comfort knowing that his countless contributions to healthcare and philanthropy have been memorialized in such an enduring manner.”

The Order of Canada cannot be awarded to someone after their death but the committee charged with deciding who gets the award actually granted it to Barry Sherman at a meeting in November and Governor General Julie Payette signed the appointment prior to his death.

Homicide detective are leading that investigation, though police have only said that they consider the deaths suspicious at this point.

 

[MistyWaters]

Doesn't the money go directly to the government departments? Why would it go to the seller or their attorney?
Is it a feasible thing for the average person to do if they want privacy? Thank you.

The sale proceeds go directly to the seller from the attorney handling the sale (who likely upon receipt had been holding them in a trust acct) and taxes go to the government. What appears on property deeds as recorded by Land Tiles is initiated simply by forwarding legal documents for registration, for example a land title transfer. The role of Land Titles is that of our public record holders and is not involved in the legal transaction per say.

Maybe what's confusing is the perception that CRA or tax departments rely on property searches from Land Titles to determine if they've been appropriately awarded for financial transactions. That's not how it goes. It's lawyers who are governed by their Law Society who are responsible for ensuring real estate transactions abide by the law.

 

[MistyWaters]

Since their deaths?

Perhaps but I recall reading this odd reference almost the same time the media announced the death discovery. And the photo of the barren lot looked as if the demolition was complete, that's what why it left me confused as to what the reporter was eluding to.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think thats just poor reporting. There were a lot of variances, the neighbours had to be polled etc before permits could be processed.
As soon as the permits were issued, the house came down pretty quick.

Following a permit being issued, iirc there's a 30-day window that any concerned party can file an appeal. For example a neighbour might express an objection to a proposed plan but the municipal development board can still approve it. Then they have the alternative of filing an appeal after the permit is granted and the entire matter is heard by the municipal appeal board.

The said "halt" likely was bad reporting but development could indeed be halted if the development permit was appealed. The odd reference just tweeked my attention because the reporter sort of threw it out there without offering additional details.

 

[pamelado2]

A person's membership in the Order ceases when . . . (a) the person dies
http://www.gg.ca/document.aspx?id=14945

THE ORDER OF CANADA

TERMINATION OF MEMBERSHIP IN THE ORDER

25. A person's membership in the Order ceases when
(a) the person dies;
(b) the Governor General accepts the person's resignation from the Order, which resignation shall have been made in writing and given to the Secretary General; or
(c) the Governor General makes an Ordinance terminating the person's appointment to the Order.

So, why all the fuss about him receiving this?

It was already decided he was a recipient and the membership ceases at death.

So he'll be a member for a hot 7 seconds, right?

Also, doesn't Canada believe in innocent until proven guilty? So the fact that he's possibly going to be accused of the murder in the future doesn't matter right now, does it?


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