Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #3

[MistyWaters]

I wonder were the staff was, if any.
Barry was off work on Thursday, which I understand to be unusual. The real estate agent let herself in with her key on friday noon, and discovered the bodies...so no staff in the house on Friday.
Both owners' cars parked outside...surely the staff would have looked for the owners in the house seeing the cars outside...
Could it be that Barry called them, tell them not to come in?
Honey was going to Florida, I think I read he was not going with her. The new house is registered under her name...hum maybe she was leaving him?

Matrimonial assets are considered jointly in the case of marriage breakup regardless of who's names they are registered under. The extravagance of the new home didn't appear to me something a single woman in her 70s would yearn, regardless of wealth - more like something a loving wife would hope might lure her workaholic husband into winding down during the remainder of their senior years together, bonded by sunshine, beauty and contentment.

 

[Jennifer17]

I'm sure there was no staff on Friday, the real estate agent got no answer before to get in:
https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...ut-the-deaths-of-barry-and-honey-sherman.html
That house is not that big, and staff do mind if the owners are around or not, if only to be able to answer a request.

Aren't they supposed to have died on Thursday or Wednesday night?

 

[A Widow]

Vet Path - Great to have you join the thread. I find it easier to believe the double murder as a professional hit ordered by someone who loathed Barry, than a murder suicide. I keep wondering if there were security cameras outdoors on the house as well if any of the neighbours' cameras could have picked up someone going in and leaving the house. Were the police on the roof to try to determine if there were any security camera blind spots? I don't know anything about professional hitmen but I imagine that they are very well organized. I don't think that they need to make a 'forced entry.' Maybe the door has a code that's not hard to figure out. It seems plausible that they'd want to kill H first in front of B as a type of torture to him, and then stage this belt hanging. If they get the public to believe its murder suicide all the better and for those that don't, they'll get the message that you can only go so far before its payback time. It would likely also be expedient to get rid of H anyway because she likely would have known who hated B the most. It may be rare to kill a rich couple but then again, Barry had a hundred lawsuits going at any given time which is very rare even for ultra-rich people. He said himself that he wondered why someone hadn't ordered a hit on him. Maybe someone finally did. :thinking:

 

[JDG]

I think work would have been halted until probate was granted on the estates, which is probably quite complicated.

Which estates are you referring to? The Greens, Al and Malka only died in 2016 and 2015. That probate may have gone through, it takes about a year. I think Al Green died about a year ago.

If you mean the Shermans, it likely won't be probated for quite some time, given the circumstance and complexity of the wills.

I bet nothing about the wills is straight forward.

 

[Jennifer17]

Matrimonial assets are considered jointly in the case of marriage breakup regardless of who's names they are registered under. The extravagance of the new home didn't appear to me something a single woman in her 70s would yearn, regardless of wealth - more like something a loving wife would hope might lure her workaholic husband into winding down during the remainder of their senior years together, bonded by sunshine, beauty and contentment.

I don't see it like that. I am not sure that BS cared about any of that. I think he like winning and Honey liked showing of their wealth and her social position (that is not a criticism, just an observation).

 

[JDG]

Vet Path - Great to have you join the thread. I find it easier to believe the double murder as a professional hit ordered by someone who loathed Barry, than a murder suicide. I keep wondering if there were security cameras outdoors on the house as well if any of the neighbours' cameras could have picked up someone going in and leaving the house. Were the police on the roof to try to determine if there were any security camera blind spots? I don't know anything about professional hitmen but I imagine that they are very well organized. I don't think that they need to make a 'forced entry.' Maybe the door has a code that's not hard to figure out. It seems plausible that they'd want to kill H first in front of B as a type of torture to him, and then stage this belt hanging. If they get the public to believe its murder suicide all the better and for those that don't, they'll get the message that you can only go so far before its payback time. It would likely also be expedient to get rid of H anyway because she likely would have known who hated B the most. It may be rare to kill a rich couple but then again, Barry had a hundred lawsuits going at any given time which is very rare even for ultra-rich people. He said himself that he wondered why someone hadn't ordered a hit on him. Maybe someone finally did. :thinking:

The side door was unlocked and there was no security cameras nor security on their home. The TPS is still checking about cameras a few blocks away, they must be onto something.

 

[Jennifer17]

Which estates are you referring to? The Greens, Al and Malka only died in 2016 and 2015. That probate may have gone through, it takes about a year. I think Al Green died about a year ago.

If you mean the Shermans, it likely won't be probated for quite some time, given the circumstance and complexity of the wills.

I bet nothing about the wills is straight forward.

I mean the Shermans. The executors of the Malkas have sold that house and may have distributed the proceeds. Either way, their estate has nothing to do with the Shermans
.

 

[Jennifer17]

The side door was unlocked and there was no security cameras nor security on their home. The TPS is still checking about cameras a few blocks away, they must be onto something.

I am not sure that I believe that the side door was always unlocked. It seems to me to be a rumour to counter the no forced entry. With well publised burglaries in the street, it is not believable to me.

 

[JDG]

Tighthead is right on when it comes to complicit title transfers but in the case of the new property title will be transferred to the Estate Trustee of BH's Estate and then to any subsequent purchaser or beneficiary as the case may be.

The existing property will be registered in the name of the survivor in the event the property is registered to both as joint tenants.

This is where it gets interesting. In order to properly administer these two estates it is necessary to determine which of the two died first ...most wills have provisions for predeceased beneficiaries and in particular provide that a beneficiary must survive the testator for a period of 30 days in order to receive under the will. Subsequent disaster clauses would then apply setting out the distribution of the Estate assets.

As of late, wealthy business owners have both a primary and secondary will. The primary will is for personal assets while the secondary will is for shares in private corporations and other assets that do not require probate . This along with shareholder agreements and trusts and other arrangements are referred to as succession planning.

IMO the circumstances of their passing at the "same" time will cause a lot of red tape and affect the ownership of shares in some of their corporations. There will also be probate filing fees and capital gains taxes payable on all of their taxable assets at the same time...onerous.

IMO the deaths are the result of a double murder for hire by someone who wanted to ruin the Sherman name, throw all of the assets into legal limbo, attract maximum tax payable and topple the succession plan. It is the ultimate revenge against the Sherman dynasty IMO ...

I concur.

 

[JDG]

I am not sure that I believe that the side door was always unlocked. It seems to me to be a rumour to counter the no forced entry. With well publised burglaries in the street, it is not believable to me.

All the postings about the robberies were in the Bridle Path area, a very posh area maybe 15 minutes drive away.
AFAIK there weren't a lot of break ins on Old Colony Rd or that area of North York.

I was verified by neighbours and friends, you could walk in anytime.

 

[Tighthead]

Tighthead is right on when it comes to complicit title transfers but in the case of the new property title will be transferred to the Estate Trustee of BH's Estate and then to any subsequent purchaser or beneficiary as the case may be.

The existing property will be registered in the name of the survivor in the event the property is registered to both as joint tenants.

This is where it gets interesting. In order to properly administer these two estates it is necessary to determine which of the two died first ...most wills have provisions for predeceased beneficiaries and in particular provide that a beneficiary must survive the testator for a period of 30 days in order to receive under the will. Subsequent disaster clauses would then apply setting out the distribution of the Estate assets.

As of late, wealthy business owners have both a primary and secondary will. The primary will is for personal assets while the secondary will is for shares in private corporations and other assets that do not require probate . This along with shareholder agreements and trusts and other arrangements are referred to as succession planning.

IMO the circumstances of their passing at the "same" time will cause a lot of red tape and affect the ownership of shares in some of their corporations. There will also be probate filing fees and capital gains taxes payable on all of their taxable assets at the same time...onerous.

IMO the deaths are the result of a double murder for hire by someone who wanted to ruin the Sherman name, throw all of the assets into legal limbo, attract maximum tax payable and topple the succession plan. It is the ultimate revenge against the Sherman dynasty IMO ...

It likely wouldn’t apply in this case, but some jurisdictions have legislation that in the event of simultaneous death, the older person is deemed to have died first. In Ontario the law states that each estate is administered as if they were the survivor, which has the effect of severing joint tenancies.

The evidence, based on reports so far, suggests that they will be able to determine the order of death.

 

[MistyWaters]

Tighthead is right on when it comes to complicit title transfers but in the case of the new property title will be transferred to the Estate Trustee of BH's Estate and then to any subsequent purchaser or beneficiary as the case may be.

The existing property will be registered in the name of the survivor in the event the property is registered to both as joint tenants.

This is where it gets interesting. In order to properly administer these two estates it is necessary to determine which of the two died first ...most wills have provisions for predeceased beneficiaries and in particular provide that a beneficiary must survive the testator for a period of 30 days in order to receive under the will. Subsequent disaster clauses would then apply setting out the distribution of the Estate assets.

As of late, wealthy business owners have both a primary and secondary will. The primary will is for personal assets while the secondary will is for shares in private corporations and other assets that do not require probate . This along with shareholder agreements and trusts and other arrangements are referred to as succession planning.

IMO the circumstances of their passing at the "same" time will cause a lot of red tape and affect the ownership of shares in some of their corporations. There will also be probate filing fees and capital gains taxes payable on all of their taxable assets at the same time...onerous.

IMO the deaths are the result of a double murder for hire by someone who wanted to ruin the Sherman name, throw all of the assets into legal limbo, attract maximum tax payable and topple the succession plan. It is the ultimate revenge against the Sherman dynasty IMO ...

Excellent points!

 

[MistyWaters]

It likely wouldn’t apply in this case, but some jurisdictions have legislation that in the event of simultaneous death, the older person is deemed to have died first. In Ontario the law states that each estate is administered as if they were the survivor, which has the effect of severing joint tenancies.

The evidence, based on reports so far, suggests that they will be able to determine the order of death.

Survivorship clauses in wills involving joint parties are not standard in Ontario?

 

[Tighthead]

Survivorship clauses in wills involving joint parties are not standard in Ontario?

They are, I was talking about legislation that determines order of death.

 

[Jennifer17]

All the postings about the robberies were in the Bridle Path area, a very posh area maybe 15 minutes drive away.
AFAIK there weren't a lot of break ins on Old Colony Rd or that area of North York.

I was verified by neighbours and friends, you could walk in anytime.

You could walk in my house at anytime of the day, but at night, when I am going to bed, I lock the doors. I can't believe that they wouldn't. 15 minutes away is kind of close.

 

[JDG]

You could walk in my house at anytime of the day, but at night I lock the doors. I can't believe that they wouldn't. 15 minutes away is kind of close.

Its still a different neighbourhood and much posher. LOL

Better stuff if you're into theft.

I lock my doors too but Im not even close to being a Billionaire.

 

[Jennifer17]

Its still a different neighbourhood and much posher. LOL

Better stuff if you're into theft.

I lock my doors too but Im not even close to being a Billionaire.

Wealthier than the Shermans? They were known to be among the wealthiest people in Canada and they knew that info was out there. I just cannot believe that Barry, the winner would expose his possessions to burglars.

 

[A Widow]

Even if the door was locked, it wouldn't matter to people in the business of gaining access. They'd find out how to do it unobtrusively. If there were no cameras on the house and it's night time all the better to come and go undetected unless someone somewhere had security cameras with good night vision.

 

[PaulR]

Wealthier than the Shermans? They were known to be among the wealthiest people in Canada and they knew that info was out there. I just cannot believe that Barry, the winner would expose his possessions to burglars.

For most people, a lot of their net worth is tied up in their house and material possessions. House burns down, someone robs you, it's a serious financial issue. For a billionaire, someone sacking his house would be spare change even if he was a bit of a frugal guy with his cars.

 

[MistyWaters]

They are, I was talking about legislation that determines order of death.

Okay, thanks. The legislation that determines order of death might then refer to distribution of assets when a person dies without having left a legally valid will? Having to probate two separate estates, one estate passing onward to a deceased spouse, a second disbursing the estate of the other deceased spouse is what the typical 30 day survivorship clause seeks to avoid.

But the probate of the joint estate of both deceased spouses without right of survivorship would still prove very costly.