Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #4

[otto]

Dare i distract with a previously much maligned Frank magazine link?
An update of sorts to the first article, this one from January 2018.
Fwiw.
http://frankmag.ca/2018/01/26787/

The author of that story has the cars in the underground garage, whereas we have seen photos of the cars parked outside. Clearly there needs to be some fact checking for that source.

 

[JDG]

Perhaps I can help clarify. We have read in the news that the couple were going on vacation to Florida and that they were leaving Toronto on different days. This information is not attributed to police sources. In the same news articles, police sources have been cited in relation to facts of the case.

No one doubts that the couple were going on vacation, but some doubt the police working theory. How does one decide which facts published in MSM should be believed and which should be doubted? Either the news publications are accurate or inaccurate, so I'm curious why anyone who doubts police sources believes that the couple were going on vacation.

Well, because they didn't say they were 'possibly going to Florida'. It was a certainty, they had definite plans to go to Florida.

Thanks for trying to clarify but I need the OP to explain their comment. Having re-read it, I suspect there is a typo and they mean without hearing it from HS OR BS we cannot believe it.

Otto, one cannot and must not ignore the word 'possibly' in a phrase, it means it is not certain but maybe. As for the cancer backgrounds, I thought you were wondering and I was just trying to help. IMO MOO IMHO

 

[Grey-St]

For example- it was reported in MSM that HS had emailed a friend or family member that she and BS would be in Florida over the Holidays and that she was looking forward to getting together. This info came to MSM from a "source" - to my knowledge we don't know who provided it, or whether the info is legitimate, or if it's fiction. But MSM reported it, and I suspect most everyone on the board accepts it as fact. There are so many examples of the same thing- MSM reporting info obtained from "sources" that we have accepted as fact. But it's only "police sources" that we are to question? It seems to me that if we are going to doubt/question all sources, then the only info we can truly rely on is info that we get directly from BS or HS.

Again, I don't really think that's what folks here are doing.

I can only speak for myself, but I take into consideration all source information. However, none of it becomes classified in my brain as "fact". It's taken into consideration along with "how likely is this?", "what is the probability that it is true or that it is false?", "where is this information comings from?" and "what is missing from this information?" And then I root all of that in my own common sense and knowledge.

The only thing truly classified in my brain as "fact" is the COD.

 

[ldlager]

Yes, "or". Sorry for the typo

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

For example- it was reported in MSM that HS had emailed a friend or family member that she and BS would be in Florida over the Holidays and that she was looking forward to getting together. This info came to MSM from a "source" - to my knowledge we don't know who provided it, or whether the info is legitimate, or if it's fiction. But MSM reported it, and I suspect most everyone on the board accepts it as fact. There are so many examples of the same thing- MSM reporting info obtained from "sources" that we have accepted as fact. But it's only "police sources" that we are to question? It seems to me that if we are going to doubt/question all sources, then the only info we can truly rely on is info that we get directly from BS or HS.

Another example is the neighbor who said their side door was always open. We have no idea how close this neighbor was to the Shermans, or if they were close at all. Was she speaking in hyperbole? Did she pop over occasionally at 2 in the morning to check?

Yet people believe that without question.

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[JDG]

The author of that story has the cars in the underground garage, whereas we have seen photos of the cars parked outside. Clearly there needs to be some fact checking for that source.

They probably have had more than two vehicles.

There were about 15 parking spots on the property and neither of the cars up top looked to have been driven for a few days when they were found.

Her Lexus was covered in snow, his car had a bit less. I think they owned other vehicles and may well have driven down into the garage.

I also think Frank Mag is spot on. Double murder, they didn't even see the murderers and it was over very quickly.

If you are a hit person, you don't want to hang around long, in and out. What if a neighbour saw them come home and came over for some reason?? Nope, get in, get out.

Now, why do I give them cred? Because the people who write for Frank are often from MSM and have details that cannot yet hit the MSM, so they write for Frank. Thats also why they do not use bylines.

Thanks dotr.

 

[JayFriend]

We've had that debate in this discussion thread from beginning. Most people, and I mean people who read the news rather than people on this forum, accept police sources as a valid source of information. Here, there seems to be an expectation that the police office's name, rank, and role be provided, that if that officer's name is not included the information must be false. I'm not sure why anyone would refuse to accept information from police sources, but it cannot be said that police have not confirmed that they are investigating the deaths as a murder-suicide. According to police, that is exactly what they are doing.

In all kinds of investigations there have always been valid sources from within the police where the source didn't want to be named because they weren't an official spokesperson, or just orders from above. That does not mean the source is unreliable.

 

[Grey-St]

Another example is the neighbor who said their side door was always open. We have no idea how close this neighbor was to the Shermans, or if they were close at all. Was she speaking in hyperbole? Did she pop over occasionally at 2 in the morning to check?

Yet people believe that without question.

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I personally find that bit of information difficult to believe, jmo though.

 

[JDG]

I am wondering if anybody has found any other cases of this technique of coat or clothing pulled down to limit arm movement in any known cases of ligature suicide?

Its used in fighting a lot. Grab the opponents garment and pull it up over their face. Then, you can hit them but they have trouble hitting back.
Think of a hockey game......for instance. IMO

In this case, their coats were pulled down, not up but up works too if you don't need access to their head/neck area. IMO

IMO, it was used to disable them WHILE the perps hung them. Saves on DNA being splattered anywhere, neat and tidy and faster than dealing with struggling victims. They may have been given an inhalant of some sort to help disable them too. IMO

Interesting question though. If you ever find out, please post.

 

[ldlager]

LE has not announced that they are looking at other suspects. They have also NOT indicated that there is in their view, any risk to the public. If they thought there was a risk to the public, not announcing it or making people aware would be totally irresponsible in my view.
Knowing this, IMO LE has CONCLUDED that this crime was NOT the result of a burglary or other intrusion that was committed simply because the Shermans were WEALTHY. Even if nothing appears to be stolen, LE MUST have concluded this, because there are plenty of wealthy neighbours in the area that LE should have otherwise advised of a potential risk/threat, and LE would IMO have made a public announcement in this regard.
Assuming this, I conclude that LE KNOWS that this crime was either:1) a double suicide 2) a murder suicide or 3) a double murder specifically targeted at the Sherman's, and not as part of a robbery.
Other's thoughts on this?
All IMO

 

[JayFriend]

I'm continually reminded of the death of Wayne Millard being originally classified as a suicide as well and considering the upcoming trial, it must be on the minds of TPS.

Unless there's very obvious indications of murder, there's obvious motivation to lean toward findings of suicide as opposed to instigating the high costs involved in murder investigations.

Exactly! Evidence we now see coming out on the conviction of Matthew Ward-Jackson, who supplied guns to Dellen Millard, shows LE originally failed to identify and track the gun used in Wayne Millard's "suicide". 20/20 hindsight.

 

[Grey-St]

LE has not announced that they are looking at other suspects. They have also NOT indicated that there is in their view, any risk to the public. If they thought there was a risk to the public, not announcing it or making people aware would be totally irresponsible in my view.
Knowing this, IMO LE has CONCLUDED that this crime was NOT the result of a burglary or other intrusion that was committed simply because the Shermans were WEALTHY. Even if nothing appears to be stolen, LE MUST have concluded this, because there are plenty of wealthy neighbours in the area that LE should have otherwise advised of a potential risk/threat, and LE would IMO have made a public announcement in this regard.
Assuming this, I conclude that LE KNOWS that this crime was either:1) a double suicide 2) a murder suicide or 3) a double murder specifically targeted at the Sherman's, and not as part of a robbery.
Other's thoughts on this?
All IMO

Yes, I think this is a fair interpretation. In the option of double-murder, it was likely targeted. Therefore, in my opinion (and likely the opinion of LE) there's no risk to public safety.

 

[AddyFinch]

Well... I was going to toss into the fray... HS was found by BS already dead(suicide). He was so berift and knew her suicide would be viewed poorly by Honey's Jewish faith, he repositioned her with him at rail, and committed suicide and staged it to look like murder. After reading that article in Frank, I didn't know about them wearing boots???? WTH??
If that was true, there is a different spin on this all together, and I am now back sitting on the fence.
As a woman, the automatic thing walking into your house in winter is to kick off your boots (some of us don't bother wearing them). If you were popping in for a second to grab something, you might not bother. If coming home for the evening you would remove them.
If they were found with their boots and coats on, then the process of their deaths began the moment they entered that house.
I think the TPS told neighbours "not seeking anyone at moment", has nothing to do with a random smash and grab robbery. There are tons of wealthy people in that neighbourhood, why pick on BS &HS?? If murder, then the Shermans were targeted. I don't think this smells of Big Pharma, but I wouldn't discount construction/real estate dealings.

 

[otto]

Well... I was going to toss into the fray... HS was found by BS already dead(suicide). He was so berift and knew her suicide would be viewed poorly by Honey's Jewish faith, he repositioned her with him at rail, and committed suicide and staged it to look like murder. After reading that article in Frank, I didn't know about them wearing boots???? WTH??
If that was true, there is a different spin on this all together, and I am now back sitting on the fence.
As a woman, the automatic thing walking into your house in winter is to kick off your boots (some of us don't bother wearing them). If you were popping in for a second to grab something, you might not bother. If coming home for the evening you would remove them.
If they were found with their boots and coats on, then the process of their deaths began the moment they entered that house.
I think the TPS told neighbours "not seeking anyone at moment", has nothing to do with a random smash and grab robbery. There are tons of wealthy people in that neighbourhood, why pick on BS &HS?? If murder, then the Shermans were targeted. I don't think this smells of Big Pharma, but I wouldn't discount construction/real estate dealings.

Wearing "jackets" has been changed to wearing "winter coats and boots", and cars that were parked outside the house was changed to in the garage. That's where I stopped reading. Frank mag is a satire magazine that has never claimed to have any intention to accurately report news.

 

[AddyFinch]

I would also like to add at this time. Some viewers/posters might find some of the posts here, arguments, disagreements, descriptive details offensive, but... while it can be raw at times, I do know for a fact in one particular Cdn case, the WS participants here assisted (or may have actually been paramount) in pointing authorities to the individuals responsible for a few murders. Don't forget, most of us might be WS, but some are lawyers, police, family members, doctors, etc and scarily some could be the criminals themselves.
Being careful for litigation issues is one thing, but not having the ability to discuss openly (with respect) is another. If you are offended by respecful posts, then we always have a choice to not read.
As to the police sources.....LOL..... in this day and age of fake news, I don't believe anything they say... but good police sources have their place. Only the journo knows who to trust.

 

[pamelado2]

Another example is the neighbor who said their side door was always open. We have no idea how close this neighbor was to the Shermans, or if they were close at all. Was she speaking in hyperbole? Did she pop over occasionally at 2 in the morning to check?

Yet people believe that without question.

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I certainly can't speak for everyone, but I for one didn't believe that without question. Mainly because it was too vague.

The truth of the matter is, a "source" is someone unwilling to go on the record with their name, title. Yes, I doubt the authenticity of their remarks. Especially since the murder-suicide remark is in direct contradiction to the actual police statement. The LE stated the deaths were suspicious and they were investigating every avenue. They didn't say "we believe it was a murder-suicide but we'll still investigate".
LE statements aren't conjecture or opinion (at least not as far as I know). That murder/suicide statement came the day after the bodies were found. Before any testing was completed.


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[Grey-St]

Wearing "jackets" has been changed to wearing "winter coats and boots", and cars that were parked outside the house was changed to in the garage. That's where I stopped reading. Frank mag is a satire magazine that has never claimed to have any intention to accurately report news.

We can agree on that otto!

Even though I am on the fence, and see double-homicide as a possibility, this Frank Mag information does not seem reliable, imo. I read it 'just because', but didn't find it rooted in anything significant. JMO.

 

[Sillybilly]

Stop the back and forth bickering over what LE is or is not considering. None of us has the inside scoop.

State your case (as has been done a multitude of times) and move on. It gets tedious for other members and guests to see the same old arguments taking place. Nobody is here to hammer their own opinion into the minds of others.

Scroll and roll, or use the Ignore feature if you continue to disagree with someone and you just can't handle it. Alert on the post if it is a violation of TOS.

 

[Veeduck]

Unfortunately, none of these actions will be given a public statement by LE. They are not obligated to comment on the specifics of their investigation. The only time this information becomes available, is when a case goes to trial. Even family members are unaware of these details until a trial commences, or a case is closed. They may be updated on toxicology results.

The only obligation LE has to give a public statement, is when COD is concluded, in the case of homicide- when MOD is concluded, when there is a person of interest and they require the public's assistance, or there's a risk to public safety, when an arrest warrant is issued, when an arrest is made and charges laid, or when a case is closed.

We very well may know when the crime scene is released, because we will figure it out, or the media will report on it. I don't believe it requires a public statement, however.

I agree, Grey-St. I did try to indicate that in most of my listed events; the public might not hear about it until trial, assuming there ever is one. Even toxicology results will probably not be announced, since in this case they're likely to be negative.

Our best hope for new evidence comes from the neighbor's security cameras. If one or more cams happens to show someone loitering near the house, or a car briefly parked nearby in the middle of the night, then TPS might release video to the public in hopes of generating tips. If something was recorded, it might explain why the outside search was extended to other streets. But even in that case, it would probably be found to be unrelated to the Shermans' deaths.

I also hold out hope that a big reward for tips may generate new info. But no doubt the police have discouraged the family from offering one until all other avenues have been exhausted. Perhaps, as a member recently suggested, somebody that saw something may return from vacation soon.

As many here have already noted, this is a complex and baffling case that may take a long time to solve, if it ever is.

 

[MistyWaters]

Dare i distract with a previously much maligned Frank magazine link?
An update of sorts to the first article, this one from January 2018.
Fwiw.
http://frankmag.ca/2018/01/26787/

Thanks for the link!

Given we don't know if the vehicles parked outside, seen in the crime scene photos, are what either of the two drove, it's interesting to consider a perpetrator could've entered unseen, as a vehicle was being driven into the garage. And that the underground garage happens to be on the same level as the pool room.