Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #7

[WINDSOR]

The article makes no mention that anyone confirmed that the Sherman's were dead. Are we really to believe that instead of calling 911 asap, they cleared out the clients, showed them the rest of the basement, then went back downstairs to look at the bodies to confirm they were dead, then discuss with the housekeeper, then phone their boss in Florida, then sit around and wait for instructions, and then as a last resort call 911? IMO that does not sound the least bit reasonable.

Unless you have discovered a dead body of someone you know it is quite difficult to say what reasonable is. Once you have ascertained the person is dead, there can be shock and a flood of emotions and memories. You may get overwhelmed and shut down mentally for a period of time. You may carefully consider the next steps vis-a vis family members. You might even have a good stiff drink. You know calling 911 will make no difference as to the outcome of the deceased.

Much of our reference is from Television dramas, where everything has to be resolved in a one hour show, real life ain't like that.

 

[JDG]

I speculate that a junior REALTOR® in the Toronto luxury home market is under strict orders that, if they encounter something unexpected, they are not to do anything without getting instructions from the boss. Especially if it involves, in any way, shape or form, the police.

After all, the owners being found murdered in their pool room while the home is actually for sale, could have a significantly negative impact on the sale and therefore the commission. Even more importantly, the murders might actually have been associated with the actions of a REALTOR®, such as being careless with keys or showing the house to the wrong type of people. And yet more importantly, the other clients of the REALTOR® could be so disturbed by the association between the REALTOR® and the murder of the homeowners, they might actually change realtors. And an even further massively scary implication could be, that the murder of this couple in their luxury home, while it was for sale, could be just that little unexpected pin prick that bursts the inflated Toronto luxury real estate market, leaving nothing but a ragged bit of balloon.

So, I speculate, this is why, after 30 or so minutes of discussion, the housekeeper was told to phone 911, rather than the REALTOR® who actually found the bodies.

Being found dead in your 'For Sale' house will always affect the sale, even a natural death but that does not 'free' the realtor from an obligation to do the right thing and call the authorities right away.

Yes, turn away the buyers and their agent quickly, as you've walked into a crime scene etc.

I think there's a problem with the Star reporting, not the behaviour of anyone at the scene.

The Shermans had been dead in that heated house, outdoor clothing still on....for a couple of days so it would be obvious by sight and odor that they were deceased. If that wasn't enough, no answer when you spoke to them and the fact that they were hanging in the pool area would do it.

Most people are not accustomed to seeing dead people, so I think that would make them more inclined to call 911 quickly and not think, oh well they're dead so theres no rush. Why the housekeeper called as opposed to the realtor, I have no idea but I sure hope it wasn't a 40 minute delay and that its an error in the media.

 

[JDG]

The article makes no mention that anyone confirmed that the Sherman's were dead. Are we really to believe that instead of calling 911 asap, they cleared out the clients, showed them the rest of the basement, then went back downstairs to look at the bodies to confirm they were dead, then discuss with the housekeeper, then phone their boss in Florida, then sit around and wait for instructions, and then as a last resort call 911? IMO that does not sound the least bit reasonable.

Unless you have discovered a dead body of someone you know it is quite difficult to say what reasonable is. Once you have ascertained the person is dead, there can be shock and a flood of emotions and memories. You may get overwhelmed and shut down mentally for a period of time. You may carefully consider the next steps vis-a vis family members. You might even have a good stiff drink. You know calling 911 will make no difference as to the outcome of the deceased.

Much of our reference is from Television dramas, where everything has to be resolved in a one hour show, real life ain't like that.

With all due respect, I think your scenario of thinking a lot and emoting and then having a stiff drink are the things you see on tv. Most people are not accustomed to seeing dead bodies, never mind in places where they ought not to be. I think and hope that their first reaction would be to call 911.

I guess its my own background that makes me concerned with all this idea of amateurs deciding that people are beyond help and therefore not calling 911. If you find someone unconscious, please call 911 right away, as that person may only have minutes to live and that phone call could save them. Don't panic, don't dither.

And, don't go for a drink. Lots of time for that after the paramedics have left.

 

[JDG]

What looks like cooperation to one juror can look like collusion with another.

So we can consider you a skeptic? Good point, thats why we have juries, look at all pov.

Not saying collusion NEVER happens but its in everyones best interest if the truth can be found.

 

[human]

It would take awhile to walk in that house to get back to the main area.

I imagine the realtor had to think of something to say while guiding the clients back. Then some chit chat. Then talk to the housekeeper?

40 mins is a long time. I can see 20 mins for walking back and talking, but I can’t figure out another 20.

 

[Grey-St]

With all due respect, I think your scenario of thinking a lot and emoting and then having a stiff drink are the things you see on tv. Most people are not accustomed to seeing dead bodies, never mind in places where they ought not to be. I think and hope that their first reaction would be to call 911.

I guess its my own background that makes me concerned with all this idea of amateurs deciding that people are beyond help and therefore not calling 911. If you find someone unconscious, please call 911 right away, as that person may only have minutes to live and that phone call could save them. Don't panic, don't dither.

And, don't go for a drink. Lots of time for that after the paramedics have left.

This is fair. I live in the true crime world, and even I, in person, would likely not approach what looks to be dead bodies, check vitals, think "hm, well they are definitely dead so no rush". I'd just see the scene, panic, and call 911.

 

[ldlager]

Im not sure what is incorrect in the Star story but I doubt the concern was losing the sale/commission.

If one comes across a couple of bodies, I can see getting the others out of the way but then one calls the police. Period.

It certainly isn't up to the realtor to determine if someone is dead. However, depending on how long they had been there, it may have been obvious. But, you still call the police.

Not much to 'discuss' with the housekeeper.......really.

the pool is 43 ft long. Plus the distance from the door to the pool and the railing to the pool. Call it 50 ft. In total from the door to the bodies. My eyesight sure wouldn’t be good enough to judge living vs dead from 50 ft away with the bodies facing the other direction. So, maybe someone went over to the bodies to look closer? If so, who? And were they alone at the crime scene?

when I said discuss with the housekeeper I meant tell him/her about the bodies.

 

[Jennifer17]

I totally agree that this 40 minute wait is very strange. I don't exactly know what their priorities were, but it seems that they were mixed up. What I do know, is that when in a traumatic situation, time becomes very distorted. Those 40 minutes could felt like 5 minutes to the people present.

BBM. I have experienced the opposite of that, wherein 5 minutes seemed like 40 minutes.

 

[ldlager]

The article makes no mention that anyone confirmed that the Sherman's were dead. Are we really to believe that instead of calling 911 asap, they cleared out the clients, showed them the rest of the basement, then went back downstairs to look at the bodies to confirm they were dead, then discuss with the housekeeper, then phone their boss in Florida, then sit around and wait for instructions, and then as a last resort call 911? IMO that does not sound the least bit reasonable.

Unless you have discovered a dead body of someone you know it is quite difficult to say what reasonable is. Once you have ascertained the person is dead, there can be shock and a flood of emotions and memories. You may get overwhelmed and shut down mentally for a period of time. You may carefully consider the next steps vis-a vis family members. You might even have a good stiff drink. You know calling 911 will make no difference as to the outcome of the deceased.

Much of our reference is from Television dramas, where everything has to be resolved in a one hour show, real life ain't like that.

Thanks Windsor. Unfortunately, in fact I have had the very unpleasant experience of discovering a person I know that was dead. At least They looked dead to me. I am not a doctor and have no medical training, I called police right away, Just in case I was wrong. Never crossed my mind to do anything else. Certainly never thought about drinking his booze! ��

 

[ldlager]

Wondering what would/could happen to shares, stocks in Apotex and other Sherman businesses immediately after the deaths were announced?
Could anyone profit or at least not lose money in the companies if they were aware of the deaths, ( not the killer/s) before anyone else, including LE?
speculation, imo.

The vast majority of Barry’s investments were in private companies, so other shareholders would not benefit from having this knowledge, as the shares aren’t publicly traded. Regarding Apotex, I believe if the company was ever to be sold, it would be worth more if Barry was alive, so the buyer could use his knowledge etc for a period of time after the transaction, if they wanted to.

 

[drama_farmer]

Wondering what would/could happen to shares, stocks in Apotex and other Sherman businesses immediately after the deaths were announced?
Could anyone profit or at least not lose money in the companies if they were aware of the deaths, ( not the killer/s) before anyone else, including LE?
speculation, imo.

I would be very curious to know if there were any "unusual" trading patterns in their stock (and related stocks) in the time period between discovery of the bodies and the news hitting the MSM.

ETA: :blushing:Forgot that APOTEX wasn't traded publicly. Still might be worth a look at related stocks in that sector

 

[Grey-St]

BBM. I have experienced the opposite of that, wherein 5 minutes seemed like 40 minutes.

Everyone's trauma response is different!

 

[SeesSeas]

I may have to eat crow.That was a very definite description of wrist markings.All the other articles were suggestions that possibly they were bound.Somebody with ready access to ties (possibly a builder or tradesman)Anyone can buy plastic zip ties at Home Depot but it is damn next to impossible to put them on yourself.From these autopsy reports I also conclude that it was double miurder.But how did someone get in and out of that house.

^^BBM
Re: Anyone can buy plastic zip ties at Home Depot but it is damn next to impossible to put them on yourself.
I just now put one plastic zip tie around both of my wrists and pulled tight with my teeth. Easy. I had a wire cutter tool handy to cut the zip tie and release my wrists.

 

[SeesSeas]

In the Toronto Star article, I don't read anything about Gottlieb's assistance contacting Gottlieb.

In the below excerpt, I wonder if there was a mistake in the wording.

Instead of: [FONT=&amp]Then Gottlieb made a phone call, seeking direction on what to do.[/FONT]

Should be: [FONT=&amp]Then Gottlieb's assistant made a phone call, seeking direction on what to do.[/FONT]

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2018/05/08/how-the-investigation-into-the-deaths-of-barry-and-honey-sherman-turned-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html
[...]
After touring the upper floor, the agents and the clients went downstairs and walked along a corridor leading to the pool. Gottlieb’s assistant went first. She walked through the doorway to the pool room and recoiled. At the other end of the room she saw two bodies, backs to the pool, held in a sitting position by something tied around their necks. She turned and ushered the other agent and the clients back, making an excuse, saying this part of the home was off limits at the moment.
The discovery was made shortly after 11 a.m. Friday. Gottlieb’s assistant called up to the housekeeper, telling her what she had seen. Then Gottlieb made a phone call, seeking direction on what to do. The Star could not determine who she called.
Meanwhile, the housekeeper called 911. Toronto Police 911 system records a call coming in at 11:43 a.m. Police were en route by 11:44 a.m. Toronto EMS told the Star they dispatched two paramedic crews and a supervisor at the same time.
[...]

 

[ldlager]

In the Toronto Star article, I don't read anything about Gottlieb's assistance contacting Gottlieb.

In the below excerpt, I wonder if there was a mistake in the wording.

Instead of: [FONT=&amp]Then Gottlieb made a phone call, seeking direction on what to do.[/FONT]

Should be: [FONT=&amp]Then Gottlieb's assistant made a phone call, seeking direction on what to do.[/FONT]

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2018/05/08/how-the-investigation-into-the-deaths-of-barry-and-honey-sherman-turned-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html
[...]
After touring the upper floor, the agents and the clients went downstairs and walked along a corridor leading to the pool. Gottlieb’s assistant went first. She walked through the doorway to the pool room and recoiled. At the other end of the room she saw two bodies, backs to the pool, held in a sitting position by something tied around their necks. She turned and ushered the other agent and the clients back, making an excuse, saying this part of the home was off limits at the moment.
The discovery was made shortly after 11 a.m. Friday. Gottlieb’s assistant called up to the housekeeper, telling her what she had seen. Then Gottlieb made a phone call, seeking direction on what to do. The Star could not determine who she called.
Meanwhile, the housekeeper called 911. Toronto Police 911 system records a call coming in at 11:43 a.m. Police were en route by 11:44 a.m. Toronto EMS told the Star they dispatched two paramedic crews and a supervisor at the same time.
[...]

No, i don’t believe it should be. I took it as it was written. This article would have been proof read and checked numerous timesprior to publication. The assistant called Gottlieb, who in turn called someone else.

 

[Gardenista]

the pool is 43 ft long. Plus the distance from the door to the pool and the railing to the pool. Call it 50 ft. In total from the door to the bodies. My eyesight sure wouldn’t be good enough to judge living vs dead from 50 ft away with the bodies facing the other direction. So, maybe someone went over to the bodies to look closer? If so, who? And were they alone at the crime scene?

when I said discuss with the housekeeper I meant tell him/her about the bodies.

Indoor pool rooms are usually very warm and muggy. I feel like there would have been an odor that would make it pretty clear they were dead.

 

[ldlager]

^^BBM
Re: Anyone can buy plastic zip ties at Home Depot but it is damn next to impossible to put them on yourself.
I just now put one plastic zip tie around both of my wrists and pulled tight with my teeth. Easy. I had a wire cutter tool handy to cut the zip tie and release my wrists.

Exactly. This is entirely possible, and I said this very thing several months ago.

 

[ldlager]

Indoor pool rooms are usually very warm and muggy. I feel like there would have been an odor that would make it pretty clear they were dead.

Possible of course. After almost 2 days is it likely that the whole house would have smelled? Especially since the furnaces would have distributed air from the basement?

 

[matou]

The pool chemicals could have masked the smell somewhat IMO.

 

[SeesSeas]

No, i don’t believe it should be. I took it as it was written. This article would have been proof read and checked numerous timesprior to publication. The assistant called Gottlieb, who in turn called someone else.

But who contacted Gottlieb? Article doesn't say. So we just presume the obvious that Gottlieb's assistance phoned Gottlieb.
It wouldn't have taken much to write that clearer, especially with multiple proofreadings.

Re-written for clarity (if this is what the Investigative Reporter meant):
[FONT=&amp]The discovery was made shortly after 11 a.m. Friday. Gottlieb’s assistant called up to the housekeeper, telling her what she had seen. Gottlieb's assistant contacted Gottlieb. Then Gottlieb made a phone call, seeking direction on what to do. The Star could not determine who she called.

NOTE: I inserted "[/FONT]Gottlieb's assistant contacted Gottlieb.[FONT=&amp]"[/FONT]