Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

[MistyWaters]

The killer(s) were thorough. They didn't leave much forensic evidence, so I highly doubt they were unprofessional.

This case isn’t cold nor can it be said there was no forensic evidence left behind. Quite the opposite actually.

Yesterdays press conference by Greenspan was very critical of TPS in their processing of the crime scene - claimed it was not careful, not complete, and after ten months TPS has yet to conclude the process of elimination to determine who’s DNA/fingerprints are known to have been in the home.

 

[ldlager]

Just some random questions.
Were the Sherman's feet pointed towards a door?
Did the Shermans each have eyes open when the bodies were found?

Wondering how BS's eyeglasses managed to stay on?
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Their feet were pointed away from the pool, and therefore towards a wall- in fact pointed away from the door

 

[ldlager]

Whose belts were used?Was Honey wearing a jacket,because only Barry was mentioned to have his jacket pulled down.Did the architect sense anything at the meeting.Was Barry's jacket a suit jacket?There was no mention of outdoor clothing or boots.

There was a report yesterday that Barry didn’t have a belt on, my inference is that Barry’s belt was one of the belts that were used

 

[ldlager]

What time entry was gained or how it was gained hasn’t been stated. Other than what time each left Apotex, we don’t know what time they arrived home. It’s only assumed Honey went directly home after 5pm but did she?

The double homicide has been described as “personal”, “intimate”, the bodies placed in such a way to display “humiliation” of them.

Revenge and hatred is a known motive of homicide cases, far more common than rubbery.

I agree with you, it’s unlikely a professional hitman would waste time in staging bodies after death.

FWIW it’s much easier to drag a body with the legs crossed at the ankle and/or ankles tied together one crossed over the other - One foot dragging on the ground vs 2. So he could have been dragged in that position and then suspended, and the ankle binding (if any) removed at that point.

 

[MistyWaters]

Their feet were pointed away from the pool, and therefore towards a wall- in fact pointed away from the door

For virtually every piece of information about this case published by the media, it seems to becoming possible to find a contradiction.

This was reported yesterday, just prior to the press conferences. The realtor states the bodies were positioned on the steps leading to the pool, thought it was some sort of leftover Halloween joke.


The Toronto real estate agent who found the bodies of billionaire drug czar Barry Sherman and his wife Honey thought the scene was a Halloween hangover.

The deaths of the prominent couple have rattled the intersection of Canadian business, society and politics raising two questions: Why? and Who?

“This is a joke, something left over from Halloween,” the agent told CBC News, asking the network not to identify him.......

.......My clients weren’t really interested in the pool,” the agent said, adding they had a peak anyway. “We could see through the large glass door. [The bodies] were on the steps leading to the pool.”

He thought to himself: “What’s with these rich people … who does this?”.....”
Agent who found Shermans dead thought bodies were Halloween prank

ETA - this was originally reported by CBC and included another interesting detail iirc but I can’t find it. I think CBC overwrote it with yesterday’s press conference. The realtor and his clients arrived slightly early and were let in the house by the housekeeper. Then Shermans realtor arrived shortly thereafter. Did either use the lockbox, was the key still in the lockbox, we don’t know.

 

[JDG]

For virtually every piece of information about this case published by the media, it seems to becoming possible to find a contradiction.

This was reported yesterday, just prior to the press conferences. The realtor states the bodies were positioned on the steps leading to the pool, thought it was some sort of leftover Halloween joke.


The Toronto real estate agent who found the bodies of billionaire drug czar Barry Sherman and his wife Honey thought the scene was a Halloween hangover.

The deaths of the prominent couple have rattled the intersection of Canadian business, society and politics raising two questions: Why? and Who?

“This is a joke, something left over from Halloween,” the agent told CBC News, asking the network not to identify him.......

.......My clients weren’t really interested in the pool,” the agent said, adding they had a peak anyway. “We could see through the large glass door. [The bodies] were on the steps leading to the pool.”

He thought to himself: “What’s with these rich people … who does this?”.....”
Agent who found Shermans dead thought bodies were Halloween prank

Doesn't this strike you as exactly the opposite of what the media has stated in the past??

If they were sitting on the steps to the pool, they'd be facing the water.

We've been told they were facing away from the water. Many times......

I dunno who/what to believe anymore other than they both had same COD.

 

[Satchie]

The realtor states the bodies were positioned on the steps leading to the pool,

RSBM

So much depends on the preposition! Were they 'on' or 'near'? Is the witness referring to the railing or the actual steps?

The journalist has a deadline and doesn't trouble to clarify.

ETA: Tom Klatt said there were language issues with these witnesses. Plus, affected by shock, and perhaps never exposed to murder mysteries.

 

[Satchie]

Doesn't this strike you as exactly the opposite of what the media has stated in the past??

If they were sitting on the steps to the pool, they'd be facing the water.

We've been told they were facing away from the water. Many times......

I dunno who/what to believe anymore other than they both had same COD.

The reference to halloween caught my attention.

He said they walked down a long underground corridor, came to a glass door, and were confronted by this scene before them. As though it was a scene from a haunted house that some people love to do: people go through and each room reveals a scary, ghoulish scene.

To me, that would explain why the pool was chosen, why they were hung from the railings. Not just staged in the criminal sense, but staged like a halloween prank.

 

[otto]

Otto, we do not KNOW any of this as evidence. It's all hearsay and rumour.

The only evidence we have from TPS is cause of death.

It's very important to remember that we really 'know' nothing much about this case. Lots of rumours and hearsay though.

I followed this case early on, and we knew that Honey died several hours before Barry, and this was one of the facts that led police to believe that Barry was responsible for the murder/suicide. It was also revealed early on that they were hanging from the pool railing with belts.

I understand that the children do not want the stigma of mental illness such as suicide and murder in the family, but there doesn't seem to be anything to support double murder other than the family's ability to finance a double murder theory.

 

[MistyWaters]

The reference to halloween caught my attention.

He said they walked down a long underground corridor, came to a glass door, and were confronted by this scene before them. As though it was a scene from a haunted house that some people love to do: people go through and each room reveals a scary, ghoulish scene.

To me, that would explain why the pool was chosen, why they were hung from the railings. Not just staged in the criminal sense, but staged like a halloween prank.

Yes imo and staged to intentionally horrify whoever would discover them and I’d guess the odds were greater that it could’ve been a close friend or family member rather than a realtor.

By mid December Halloween in long gone however I can understand the realtor’s shocked reaction at what he thought he saw, considering the human mind typically attempts to rationalize even the macabre.

 

[deugirtni]

Whose belts were used?Was Honey wearing a jacket,because only Barry was mentioned to have his jacket pulled down.Did the architect sense anything at the meeting.Was Barry's jacket a suit jacket?There was no mention of outdoor clothing or boots.

Kevin Donovan reported that both were wearing their winter coats: "The Shermans were wearing winter coats that were pushed back away from the shoulders and down, which would have the effect of immobilizing the arms."
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, private investigators claim | The Star

Warmington also: "The information about how they had their hands tied behind their backs with coats over their arms, how the camera in the pool had been unplugged, the lock box theory, the roof searches, the storm sewer searches canvassing of the neighbourhood, the business and personal litigations and Barry Sherman’s potential enemies."
WARMINGTON: Did cops mislead, bungle or capitulate in Sherman ‘murder’ probe?

CBC also: "The Shermans were discovered fully clothed and wearing coats pulled down over their shoulders on Dec. 15, 2017. "
Barry and Honey Sherman deaths a targeted double homicide, police say | CBC News

Frank Magazine: "The more so, since they were both found with their winter coats and boots still on-adding to the weight."
Frank Forensics: Who Killed Barry and Honey Sherman? | Frank Magazine Ottawa

 

[MistyWaters]

I followed this case early on, and we knew that Honey died several hours before Barry, and this was one of the facts that led police to believe that Barry was responsible for the murder/suicide. It was also revealed early on that they were hanging from the pool railing with belts.

I understand that the children do not want the stigma of mental illness such as suicide and murder in the family, but there doesn't seem to be anything to support double murder other than the family's ability to finance a double murder theory.

Nowhere did police ever state the time of death for either of the Shermans. Nowhere did LE publicly state any facts led them to conclude m/s, mainly because they deny the deaths were ever determined to be m/s. Neighbours who TPS contacted to provide video mentioned interest in the 13th and the 14th, as have various media reports. What you might recall is speculation resulting from an anomyous source who claimed Honey was found still wearing the same clothes she wore that day. The coats also lead to the possibility they were never taken off, however they could’ve also been placed on the bodies immediately after death during staging.

There’s no longer any question about the manner of death. TPS announced the targeted double homicide last January. The Court has also prevented the media from obtaining copies of warrants on the basis of protecting the integrity of the double homicide investigation.

 

[MistyWaters]

Doesn't this strike you as exactly the opposite of what the media has stated in the past??

If they were sitting on the steps to the pool, they'd be facing the water.

We've been told they were facing away from the water. Many times......

I dunno who/what to believe anymore other than they both had same COD.

Yes I sure do agree. It’s sort of a waste of brain cells to focus on any single possible scenario because then comes along another news story from an anonymous somebody or other that changes it all.

The media is anxious to provide the general public with an inside scoop but they have no way of vetting whether the information they publish is factual or not.

 

[deugirtni]

Doesn't this strike you as exactly the opposite of what the media has stated in the past??

If they were sitting on the steps to the pool, they'd be facing the water.

We've been told they were facing away from the water. Many times......

I dunno who/what to believe anymore other than they both had same COD.

RSBM

So much depends on the preposition! Were they 'on' or 'near'? Is the witness referring to the railing or the actual steps?

The journalist has a deadline and doesn't trouble to clarify.

ETA: Tom Klatt said there were language issues with these witnesses. Plus, affected by shock, and perhaps never exposed to murder mysteries.

The reference to halloween caught my attention.

He said they walked down a long underground corridor, came to a glass door, and were confronted by this scene before them. As though it was a scene from a haunted house that some people love to do: people go through and each room reveals a scary, ghoulish scene.

To me, that would explain why the pool was chosen, why they were hung from the railings. Not just staged in the criminal sense, but staged like a halloween prank.

I am going to try to attach the floorplan for the basement level of the Sherman residence.. along with a photo of the pool area.. in the article, it says they saw the freakshow from through the glass, metres away, and did not enter.. then notice where the slanted handrail is next to presumably, the pool stairs.. and imagine, from previous descriptions, where the bodies were strung from.. and it is not difficult to imagine that these people could have mistaken the bodies being on the pool steps?

"They stopped outside the pool and looked inside.

"We could see through the large glass door," said the agent. Several metres away, they saw something unusual.

The bodies "were on the steps leading to the pool," he told CBC News.

"What's with these rich people ... who does this?" he recalled thinking. He says neither he nor his clients decided to enter the pool area to take a closer look."
Family of Barry and Honey Sherman offers reward of up to $10M for information about killings | CBC News

(floorplan was previously fetched from: www.houssmax.ca; pool photo: Sources reveal details of ‘suspicious’ deaths of Apotex founder Barry Sherman and wife Honey)

 

[deugirtni]

RSBM

ETA - this was originally reported by CBC and included another interesting detail iirc but I can’t find it. I think CBC overwrote it with yesterday’s press conference. The realtor and his clients arrived slightly early and were let in the house by the housekeeper. Then Shermans realtor arrived shortly thereafter. Did either use the lockbox, was the key still in the lockbox, we don’t know.

"On that cool winter day last December, the agent recalled arriving at the Sherman home on Old Colony Road — an affluent neighbourhood in north Toronto — with his clients, before their scheduled viewing appointment.

The mansion was listed at $6.7 million.

The agent said a person cleaning the home let them in and allowed them to wait inside. A short time later, an agent representing the Shermans arrived."
Family of Barry and Honey Sherman offers reward of up to $10M for information about killings | CBC News

 

[Satchie]

Yes I sure do agree. It’s sort of a waste of brain cells to focus on any single possible scenario because then comes along another news story from an anonymous somebody or other that changes it all.

The media is anxious to provide the general public with an inside scoop but they have no way of vetting whether the information they publish is factual or not.

Police always get false confessions, and now likely plenty of false snitches, they have to keep this stuff secret to quickly weed out the liars.

Speaking of snitches, I was thinking about how a perp or perps will react to this reward: it's not so much whether they'll be tempted, since $10 million's not much use in jail, but the possible paranoia that the others might snitch. One might decide that dead men tell no tales. It's also a pretty strong guarantee that if they haven't yet shared what they've done, they won't now.

 

[deugirtni]

Yes imo and staged to intentionally horrify whoever would discover them and I’d guess the odds were greater that it could’ve been a close friend or family member rather than a realtor.

Indeed. It is kind of grotesque to think that both the cleaner and the 'gardener?' were IN the home with the bodies, yet completely unaware of them. If anyone had been following the activities of the household, that person may have hoped one of those people would be the first to find the bodies.

 

[MistyWaters]

I am going to try to attach the floorplan for the basement level of the Sherman residence.. along with a photo of the pool area.. in the article, it says they saw the freakshow from through the glass, metres away, and did not enter.. then notice where the slanted handrail is next to presumably, the pool stairs.. and imagine, from previous descriptions, where the bodies were strung from.. and it is not difficult to imagine that these people could have mistaken the bodies being on the pool steps?

"They stopped outside the pool and looked inside.

"We could see through the large glass door," said the agent. Several metres away, they saw something unusual.

The bodies "were on the steps leading to the pool," he told CBC News.

"What's with these rich people ... who does this?" he recalled thinking. He says neither he nor his clients decided to enter the pool area to take a closer look."
Family of Barry and Honey Sherman offers reward of up to $10M for information about killings | CBC News

(floorplan was previously fetched from: www.houssmax.ca; pool photo: Sources reveal details of ‘suspicious’ deaths of Apotex founder Barry Sherman and wife Honey)

I can’t seem to open the PDF file for some reason.

But did you or anyone save the photos from the real estate listings? Because I’m quite sure I remember a photo from inside the house that showed the glass door into the pool area that’s being referred to. The photo was of the very large main foyer area and the glass door to the pool was to the left of the front door. But other than the blue colour of the pool, I didn’t pay a whole lot of attention to the view.

 

[deugirtni]

I followed this case early on, and we knew that Honey died several hours before Barry, and this was one of the facts that led police to believe that Barry was responsible for the murder/suicide. It was also revealed early on that they were hanging from the pool railing with belts.

I understand that the children do not want the stigma of mental illness such as suicide and murder in the family, but there doesn't seem to be anything to support double murder other than the family's ability to finance a double murder theory.

Nowhere did police ever state the time of death for either of the Shermans. Nowhere did LE publicly state any facts led them to conclude m/s, mainly because they deny the deaths were ever determined to be m/s. Neighbours who TPS contacted to provide video mentioned interest in the 13th and the 14th, as have various media reports. What you might recall is speculation resulting from an anomyous source who claimed Honey was found still wearing the same clothes she wore that day. The coats also lead to the possibility they were never taken off, however they could’ve also been placed on the bodies immediately after death during staging.

There’s no longer any question about the manner of death. TPS announced the targeted double homicide last January. The Court has also prevented the media from obtaining copies of warrants on the basis of protecting the integrity of the double homicide investigation.

I recall there was a lengthy discussion on the thread in the earlier days in regard to the shape of the covered bodies being rolled out of the home on gurnies - there was speculation due to the odd shape of ONE of the bodies, that it had been deceased longer, and was in a certain state of decomposition/rigor mortis. Other than that (which is also all speculation), it has been entirely rumor and speculation that one or the other body was deceased hours before the other.

How do we pick and choose which rumors to believe and which not to believe? I don't think it was even published in MSM that H's body was deceased hours earlier than B's body - I think that may have been a statement made by the verified insider, which, we are all free to take with a grain of salt, or not. imo.

 

[deugirtni]

I can’t seem to open the PDF file for some reason.

But did you or anyone save the photos from the real estate listings? Because I’m quite sure I remember a photo from inside the house that showed the glass door into the pool area that’s being referred to. The photo was of the very large main foyer area and the glass door to the pool was to the left of the front door. But other than the blue colour of the pool, I didn’t pay a whole lot of attention to the view.

I am now going to try to post the entire PDF, which is all 3 levels of the home... from same link as above. Let me know if that works?

As for the pool and being beside a front door... you may be thinking of photos of the OUTdoor pool? There are photos of both pools if you google and go to 'images'.