CANADA Canada - Ben Tyner, 32, cowboy, horse returned w/o him, Merritt, British Columbia, 26 Jan 2019 - #2

[zecats]

A possible theory I’ve considered for quite some time so I’m going to toss it out in writing...

Although Canada and the US are neighbours, citizens of each respective country cannot just apply for a job and be hired across the border. In the US I believe Canadians requires a prospective employer to sponsor them for a green card, which must be approved by the govt. In Canada, we have various similar programs including the Temporary Foreign Workers Program enabling people from outside of Canada, for example in the agricultural industry, to be hired as long as the prospective employer can prove there’s a shortage of qualified Canadian workers in that certain sector.

If it’s true Ben only applied for the job in October, for NR to go through all the red tape involving govt paperwork so that he’d be hired as a foreign worker and moving the next month just seems really, really quick to me.

I also notice details of Ben’s residency status in Canada is never mentioned by the media whatsoever. Surely they’re curious?

That’s why I wonder....is it possible NR hired him through some type of private arrangement and as soon as other qualified ranchers figured out he was an American working here not quite legally, he unknowingly became the target of resentment in the area by those who were overlooked for the NR position. That he was approached for that very reason, maybe after a night of a few drinks in a bar, then a fight turned vicious and deadly?

I’m not insinuating blame on Ben whatsoever. He’s described as the sort of really good natured, peaceful kind of guy who would never cause any animosity toward others. Yet police state they have reason to believe he was targeted. Why then, for what reason? I’m very certain ranch workers in that area are a closely knit group and “talk”, regardless of who is their current employer. If my theory is the slightly close to the truth, I hope they’ll talk to LE.

Purely speculation...

Interesting article describing what's needed to work on a ranch in Canada, to go along with your theory.

Ranch Jobs in Canada - Backcountry Canada Travel

To work on a ranch you need to be in excellent shape and work long hours. Many of the large cattle ranches in Canada additionally operate a tourist business. The fact is, that if you do get a job at one of the ranches, it might not be the authentic lifestyle that you expect.

Canada still has working cowboys, most of them come from generations of ranching families and many are involved in the rodeo circle.

You might be a good horse rider and you want to get a Cowboying job. Sorry, most probably you’re out of luck. These ranch jobs are mostly held by Canadian Cowboys.

ETA Actually, I'm not sure we know exactly when Ben applied for the position, went through the interview process and was hired. Also, I wonder if Ben had connections to the area already through rodeo, and if that would help expedite any paperwork.

 

[zecats]

Also specific work permits in regards to agricultural workers. Would Ben's position be considered temporary?

Ironic that he would be expected to follow the law himself. Not surprising, just ironic.

Find out if you’re eligible to work in Canada - Canada.ca

• obey the law and have no record of criminal activity (we may ask you to give us a police clearance certificate),
• not be a danger to Canada’s security,

 

[MistyWaters]

Your suspicion certainly has merit. Good thinking.
We've talked about this possibility earlier on the original thread.
even more possible, IMO, is that one of the current or past NR
cowboys had sour grapes over not being considered for the mgr.
job. 4 or 5 cowboys lost their jobs at NR last year. That has to
hurt badly especially in an area of few steady employment
opportunities.
I wonder if the mgr. job was even advertised? If so, where?
Maybe only in US ?
I saw an article from around the time the ranch let go of the
old mgr. and the 9 cowboys and the article mentioned that
someone stole a NR ranch truck and a bunch of expensive tools.
I wondered if this was a revenge burglary due to being let go.
Did a disgruntled fired employee come back to steal stuff to get
back at the ranch?
Now before you think this is a silly idea, let me tell you something: I was at my feed store a month ago and the clerks
and owner's wife were all viewing a video trying to identify
a burglar stealing stuff at night on the video. 2 of the clerks
were convinced it was a young man who had been fired from
his job at the store just a few days prior to the burglary.
He'd come back to get even with the owner for firing him.
Some people do crazy things when they get fired or get overlooked for promotion.
moo.

I’d sure think the job would definately have to be advertised for NR to prove there were no qualified Canadian applicants.

One thing about hiring foreign workers, it’s not even a matter that any one foreign worker is a better candidate. It’s that in Canada, the criteria for an employer to be approved to hire a foreign worker is there’s a shortage of qualified Canadians applicants to fill that type of job in the location of the posting (ie Merritt). I do admit I’m a little surprised there’d be a shortage of good qualified ranch managers in Canada including those who’d be willing to relocate.

Without any further information though, it’s only a question mark.

 

[MistyWaters]

Also specific work permits in regards to agricultural workers. Would Ben's position be considered temporary?

Ironic that he would be expected to follow the law himself. Not surprising, just ironic.

Find out if you’re eligible to work in Canada - Canada.ca

• obey the law and have no record of criminal activity (we may ask you to give us a police clearance certificate),
• not be a danger to Canada’s security,

Yes, no foreign worker, even in the US, would be classed as a permanent worker because they’re not a citizen of that country. Both the employer and employee have certain conditions to comply with, in order for the employment arrangement to be extended.

 

[Satchie]

A possible theory I’ve considered for quite some time so I’m going to toss it out in writing...

Although Canada and the US are neighbours, citizens of each respective country cannot just apply for a job and be hired across the border. In the US I believe Canadians requires a prospective employer to sponsor them for a green card, which must be approved by the govt. In Canada, we have various similar programs including the Temporary Foreign Workers Program enabling people from outside of Canada, for example in the agricultural industry, to be hired as long as the prospective employer can prove there’s a shortage of qualified Canadian workers in that certain sector.

If it’s true Ben only applied for the job in October, for NR to go through all the red tape involving govt paperwork so that he’d be hired as a foreign worker and moving the next month just seems really, really quick to me.

I also notice details of Ben’s residency status in Canada is never mentioned by the media whatsoever. Surely they’re curious?

That’s why I wonder....is it possible NR hired him through some type of private arrangement and as soon as other qualified ranchers figured out he was an American working here not quite legally, he unknowingly became the target of resentment in the area by those who were overlooked for the NR position. That he was approached for that very reason, maybe after a night of a few drinks in a bar, then a fight turned vicious and deadly?

I’m not insinuating blame on Ben whatsoever. He’s described as the sort of really good natured, peaceful kind of guy who would never cause any animosity toward others. Yet police state they have reason to believe he was targeted. Why then, for what reason? I’m very certain ranch workers in that area are a closely knit group and “talk”, regardless of who is their current employer. If my theory is the slightly close to the truth, I hope they’ll talk to LE.

Purely speculation...

That's a very good point, it's almost unheard of for a non-resident American to be hired to fill a fill a supervisory role.

An Australian under 35 would be eligible, under the International Experience program, but the US isn't part of that program.

My experience is the foreign worker program is used to fill low-paid labour jobs like fruit picking, hotel housekeeping. Young Canadians will work for low wages in the media, but not at physical labour.

To convince the government there wasn't anyone in the Nicola Valley or anywhere else in Canada who could do that job would be pretty unusual, IMO. I really wonder how it was done. Border officials will turn people away if they think they're not really tourists, and don't have the proper visa.

 

[MistyWaters]

That's a very good point, it's almost unheard of for a non-resident American to be hired to fill a fill a supervisory role.

An Australian under 35 would be eligible, under the International Experience program, but the US isn't part of that program.

My experience is the foreign worker program is used to fill low-paid labour jobs like fruit picking, hotel housekeeping. Young Canadians will work for low wages in the media, but not at physical labour.

To convince the government there wasn't anyone in the Nicola Valley or anywhere else in Canada who could do that job would be pretty unusual, IMO. I really wonder how it was done. Border officials will turn people away if they think they're not really tourists, and don't have the proper visa.

I did find a “stream for high-wage positions”
Hire a temporary foreign agricultural worker - Canada.ca

But I don’t know if there’s a shortage of Canadian ranch managers, which to my understanding must be proven by statistics.

 

[zecats]

Yes, no foreign worker, even in the US, would be classed as a permanent worker because they’re not a citizen of that country. Both the employer and employee have certain conditions to comply with, in order for the employment arrangement to be extended.

Partially true here in the US. There are ways "around" it.

Case in point, my husband, who is a privately licensed psychologist, mentored a woman from Poland who interned at his office. They did indeed, have to prove she would not be taking a job from an American citizen, when he was ready to hire her full time. The fact that she spoke Polish worked in her favor at this junction.

Eventually, she became a citizen and continues to be employed by him.

 

[enelram]

I’d sure think the job would definately have to be advertised for NR to prove there were no qualified Canadian applicants.

One thing about hiring foreign workers, it’s not even a matter that any one foreign worker is a better candidate. It’s that in Canada, the criteria for an employer to be approved to hire a foreign worker is there’s a shortage of qualified Canadians applicants to fill that type of job in the location of the posting (ie Merritt). I do admit I’m a little surprised there’d be a shortage of good qualified ranch managers in Canada including those who’d be willing to relocate.

Without any further information though, it’s only a question mark.

The owners of NR and their family are highly respected
and have wealthy companies and have donated large sums of money
to various Canadian enterprises. I'm sure they would have
connections and be able to expedite the process if they
wanted to hire a foreigner.
We've seen this over and over here in the states where people
were allowed visas, not based on their real skills, but because
of who they knew or if they had a high powered immigration
attorney working on their case.
Could this have come into play with a foreign cowboy mgr.?

 

[MistyWaters]

Partially true here in the US. There are ways "around" it.

Case in point, my husband, who is a privately licensed psychologist, mentored a woman from Poland who interned at his office. They did indeed, have to prove she would not be taking a job from an American citizen, when he was ready to hire her full time. The fact that she spoke Polish worked in her favor at this junction.

Eventually, she became a citizen and continues to be employed by him.

Yes that could be.

I don’t know a lot about NR but I assume it involves mainly range cattle and not a specialized breeding program which would require a higher skill set. So I admit I’m curious about the circumstances that brought him to NR in the first place, particularly because it proved totally tragic.

 

[zecats]

Yes that could be.

I don’t know a lot about NR but I assume it involves mainly range cattle and not a specialized breeding program which would require a higher skill set. So I admit I’m curious about the circumstances that brought him to NR in the first place, particularly because it proved totally tragic.

I agree with you on those points. I wondered too, why he picked Canada and how he learned about a job at NR. Seems he did travel the world and worked in several countries already, though...Russia and Australia for examples.

He was seemingly doing what he loved to do. Sad indeed that it ended in tragedy.

 

[MistyWaters]

The owners of NR and their family are highly respected
and have wealthy companies and have donated large sums of money
to various Canadian enterprises. I'm sure they would have
connections and be able to expedite the process if they
wanted to hire a foreigner.
We've seen this over and over here in the states where people
were allowed visas, not based on their real skills, but because
of who they knew or if they had a high powered immigration
attorney working on their case.
Could this have come into play with a foreign cowboy mgr.?

I sure hope Ben’s hiring doesn’t have a political connection due the wealthy owner. However I must admit in a little back corner of my mind I’ve wondered if something connected with the status of his employment was a reason his disappearance wasn’t reported. The police weren’t made aware of it until the horse was found. If the horse hadn’t been found by the loggers and then rounded up by the trapper, what then...?

Was Ben unknowingly brought into a situation that ultimately caused him to be targeted?

 

[Trudie]

Interesting article describing what's needed to work on a ranch in Canada, to go along with your theory.

Ranch Jobs in Canada - Backcountry Canada Travel

To work on a ranch you need to be in excellent shape and work long hours. Many of the large cattle ranches in Canada additionally operate a tourist business. The fact is, that if you do get a job at one of the ranches, it might not be the authentic lifestyle that you expect.

Canada still has working cowboys, most of them come from generations of ranching families and many are involved in the rodeo circle.

You might be a good horse rider and you want to get a Cowboying job. Sorry, most probably you’re out of luck. These ranch jobs are mostly held by Canadian Cowboys.

ETA Actually, I'm not sure we know exactly when Ben applied for the position, went through the interview process and was hired. Also, I wonder if Ben had connections to the area already through rodeo, and if that would help expedite any paperwork.

It’s not msm but info is on FB, Iirc. Ben actually applied quite some time ago & due to a family emergency delayed his move. His dad had some type of injury, according to BT/FB requiring Ben to remain in WY, running the family ranch.
Also, Ben worked out of the country a few times. I think he did so legally & he knew the paperwork requirements.
JMO

 

[Satchie]

Your suspicion certainly has merit. Good thinking.
We've talked about this possibility earlier on the original thread.
even more possible, IMO, is that one of the current or past NR
cowboys had sour grapes over not being considered for the mgr.
job. 4 or 5 cowboys lost their jobs at NR last year. That has to
hurt badly especially in an area of few steady employment
opportunities.
I wonder if the mgr. job was even advertised? If so, where?
Maybe only in US ?
I saw an article from around the time the ranch let go of the
old mgr. and the 9 cowboys and the article mentioned that
someone stole a NR ranch truck and a bunch of expensive tools.
I wondered if this was a revenge burglary due to being let go.
Did a disgruntled fired employee come back to steal stuff to get
back at the ranch?
Now before you think this is a silly idea, let me tell you something: I was at my feed store a month ago and the clerks
and owner's wife were all viewing a video trying to identify
a burglar stealing stuff at night on the video. 2 of the clerks
were convinced it was a young man who had been fired from
his job at the store just a few days prior to the burglary.
He'd come back to get even with the owner for firing him.
Some people do crazy things when they get fired or get overlooked for promotion.
moo.

I agree, resentment will drive people to very bad behaviour, even murder.

People who go postal are so upset and overcome that they strike out somewhat randomly, and make no attempt to conceal their actions. They're always caught.

Whereas, if someone is still in control of themselves, they'll target their revenge more directly to hurt the owner who laid them off. Or sometimes they'll pick on someone weak, like the owner's pet bunny rabbit.

Ben wasn't an obvious target, to me. A big strong guy who could take care of himself. A fellow cowboy. Would hurting Ben hurt the owner? The owner will just go hire someone else.

Was someone twisted enough to believe they could successfully make Ben disappear and then get the job themselves? Or frighten away any future candidates?

What most often happens, IMO, is that, in an atmosphere of resentment, some confrontation triggers a violent altercation that wasn't pre-planned, and then, because Ben was alone, the person had time to come up with a plan to cover up.

However, anything is possible, there definitely are some evil people out there.

 

[Trudie]

I sure hope Ben’s hiring doesn’t have a political connection due the wealthy owner. However I must admit in a little back corner of my mind I’ve wondered if something connected with the status of his employment was a reason his disappearance wasn’t reported. The police weren’t made aware of it until the horse was found. If the horse hadn’t been found by the loggers and then rounded up by the trapper, what then...?

Was Ben unknowingly brought into a situation that ultimately caused him to be targeted?

I still think the case will end right where it began. At NR.
Moo
The owner employs hundreds, worldwide, with his many biz ventures. I can’t find any info suggesting any of them have had any problems.
Imo, if Ben did not show up for work by the end of day on Monday, his crew would have reported him missing.
I think TS (office mgr) would have been first one to notice him missing as he prob reported to the office in the mornings.

 

[Trudie]

I agree, resentment will drive people to very bad behaviour, even murder.

People who go postal are so upset and overcome that they strike out somewhat randomly, and make no attempt to conceal their actions. They're always caught.

Whereas, if someone is still in control of themselves, they'll target their revenge more directly to hurt the owner who laid them off. Or sometimes they'll pick on someone weak, like the owner's pet bunny rabbit.

Ben wasn't an obvious target, to me. A big strong guy who could take care of himself. A fellow cowboy. Would hurting Ben hurt the owner? The owner will just go hire someone else.

Was someone twisted enough to believe they could successfully make Ben disappear and then get the job themselves? Or frighten away any future candidates?

What most often happens, IMO, is that, in an atmosphere of resentment, some confrontation triggers a violent altercation that wasn't pre-planned, and then, because Ben was alone, the person had time to come up with a plan to cover up.

However, anything is possible, there definitely are some evil people out there.

Once this case is solved, I think your questions will be answered.
I agree, too much evilness in our world.

 

[MistyWaters]

It’s not msm but info is on FB, Iirc. Ben actually applied quite some time ago & due to a family emergency delayed his move. His dad had some type of injury, according to BT/FB requiring Ben to remain in WY, running the family ranch.
Also, Ben worked out of the country a few times. I think he did so legally & he knew the paperwork requirements.
JMO

The onus of proper hiring of foreign workers is on the employer, not the employee so I’m not insinuating Ben might be at fault whatsoever. I’m only mentioning the possibility that it might be connected in some way because the media has chosen to sidestep the status of his residency in Canada as well. I just can’t shake the feeling that’s unusual.

 

[Trudie]

The onus of proper hiring of foreign workers is on the employer, not the employee so I’m not insinuating Ben might be at fault whatsoever. I’m only mentioning the possibility that it might be connected in some way because the media has chosen to sidestep the status of his residency in Canada as well. I just can’t shake the feeling that’s unusual.

I understand.
Just my opinion differs.
First, no one would have a clue about Ben’s status, I don’t think. And, imo, if a person did, I don’t think they’d have access to Gunny & her tack. Jmo

 

[enelram]

I agree, resentment will drive people to very bad behaviour, even murder.

People who go postal are so upset and overcome that they strike out somewhat randomly, and make no attempt to conceal their actions. They're always caught.

Whereas, if someone is still in control of themselves, they'll target their revenge more directly to hurt the owner who laid them off. Or sometimes they'll pick on someone weak, like the owner's pet bunny rabbit.

Ben wasn't an obvious target, to me. A big strong guy who could take care of himself. A fellow cowboy. Would hurting Ben hurt the owner? The owner will just go hire someone else.

Was someone twisted enough to believe they could successfully make Ben disappear and then get the job themselves? Or frighten away any future candidates?

What most often happens, IMO, is that, in an atmosphere of resentment, some confrontation triggers a violent altercation that wasn't pre-planned, and then, because Ben was alone, the person had time to come up with a plan to cover up.

However, anything is possible, there definitely are some evil people out there.

We don't know enough to even speculate a motive at this point.
Was Ben planning changes in the work environment of the
cowboys? extending their hours? Cutting back on time off?
Shortening lunch hours? Fewer benefits?
Did Ben uncover someone padding their gas account?
Or taking home the company truck for personal use?
Asking the workers to take a pay cut to make NR more profitable?
Maybe he uncovered some theft or gross negligence on a worker.
He was just getting into the books and records, maybe he was
going to make major changes? Just thinking out loud.

 

[Trudie]

We don't know enough to even speculate a motive at this point.
Was Ben planning changes in the work environment of the
cowboys? extending their hours? Cutting back on time off?
Shortening lunch hours? Fewer benefits?
Did Ben uncover someone padding their gas account?
Or taking home the company truck for personal use?
Asking the workers to take a pay cut to make NR more profitable?
Maybe he uncovered some theft or gross negligence on a worker.
He was just getting into the books and records, maybe he was
going to make major changes? Just thinking out loud.

It’s difficult for us to discuss because of the lack of msm.
Therefore, one has to sleuth for himself, finding a motive & the reason Ben was “targeted”.
IMO, we won’t get any additional msm until an arrest.

 

[MistyWaters]

I still think the case will end right where it began. At NR.
Moo
The owner employs hundreds, worldwide, with his many biz ventures. I can’t find any info suggesting any of them have had any problems.
Imo, if Ben did not show up for work by the end of day on Monday, his crew would have reported him missing.
I think TS (office mgr) would have been first one to notice him missing as he prob reported to the office in the mornings.

Is there a MSM link to the company that owns NR please, including these other assets? Other than a “cash flow situation” that caused NR to hire out hay operations in 2017, I cant find any information about worldwide operations,
Bradner R Farms assumes haying operation at Nicola Ranch - Merritt Herald

I do notice a persons name associated to the company but I’m wondering if an assumption is made because of that common first and last name.

In Canada, the names of specific owners/shareholders of private companies is not public information. If we don’t know much of anything about the ownership structure or who’s responsible for hiring practises given the ranch is not managed by owner/operator, that’s just another question mark to add to what might possibly be connected with what went horribly wrong for Ben imo.