CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #22

[FPoulet]

@Lexiintoronto I appreciate your thoroughness!

It is possible the darkened area in the bedroom was a false wall to facilitate the bed being on an angle. Their house was, IMO, designed with a lot of odd angles not to mention cold finishes. Not my taste, personally.

One would think that, if H has a pre-existing will, Hendler would have seen it? If, that is, he was truly retained to amend or redraft it. (Speculation)

I keep coming back to the question of how DH has balanced his obligations re privilege vs letting the police access info that might be significant in solving the murders.

Personally, if I were to be murdered, I’d be rolling in my grave if my murder could not be solved due to my lawyer being obliged to keep relevant information confidential. I appreciate why privilege exists—including after death— but this information seems like it could be highly relevant here. I have some empathy for DH.

 

[WINDSOR]

Very apt question: how did the WM know he could gain entry to the home so quickly and quietly? Maybe the unlocked back door? Maybe the knowledge someone else was inside?

This brings to mind another question: why is KD so sure that there were two people there? Is this wild speculation? Or has he seen something in the file —or heard something from his sources— that strongly suggests this to him?

My opinion is that the NW was part of a team. He was not going into to the Sherman home by himself, to kill two people, without in-depth knowledge of the situation, the circumstances, and most likely at least one accomplice.

Nothing about this crime has the characteristics of a 'lone-assailant' scenario. The TPS has already spoken about surveillance of the Sherman's' prior to the murders which automatically implies a 'team' was involved.

 

[WINDSOR]

That assumes they were killed upstairs. I’m not sure that is an established fact.

I’m open to it being two killers, but that means the second one completely escaped camera detection. The NW was apparently seen multiple times.

What makes you think the second one escaped camera detection?
We only know what the TPS has shown us.
Nobody on this site was aware of the NW until the TPS showed him.

Rest assured there is quite a significant amount of evidence that is being held back. Proof is the amount of redacted lines in documents that the TPS has released so far.

 

[Cedars]

That assumes they were killed upstairs. I’m not sure that is an established fact.

KD refers only to HS being attacked upstairs. This fits long established speculation, because her phone was found there. Whereas BS appears to have been attacked as he entered through the basement, since he dropped things there.

Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that KD provides any explanation for his assumption that HS was either 'dead or unconscious', upstairs.

Was it not also possible she was sufficiently conscious to make her own way downstairs under duress - eg be forced to crawl, if necessary?

I'm not sure what kind of forensic evidence could prove a person must have been 'dead or unsconcious'. Dead, or alive, yes. And evidence of drag marks, etc, indicate a person didn't go under their own power - and yet, none of the people roaming about the home noticed anything amiss...

It's all very well to have a theory, but KD needs to explain what it's based on.

JMO

 

[MerlinFalcon]

KD refers only to HS being attacked upstairs. This fits long established speculation, because her phone was found there. Whereas BS appears to have been attacked as he entered through the basement, since he dropped things there.

Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that KD provides any explanation for his assumption that HS was either 'dead or unconscious', upstairs.

Was it not also possible she was sufficiently conscious to make her own way downstairs under duress - eg be forced to crawl, if necessary?

I'm not sure what kind of forensic evidence could prove a person must have been 'dead or unsconcious'. Dead, or alive, yes. And evidence of drag marks, etc, indicate a person didn't go under their own power - and yet, none of the people roaming about the home noticed anything amiss...

It's all very well to have a theory, but KD needs to explain what it's based on.

JMO

She may have been smacked in the face upstairs and then forced to walk downstairs. Her hands may have been tied up upstairs to keep her from running.

Then Barry showed up and was attacked and killed. His body was likely placed by the pool first and hers after, otherwise they would have dragged her body over his. I seem to remember something to that effect mentioned before but I can't remember if it was in the documentary.

KD must have reasons for withholding information. I hope we start to see more news about this soon.

 

[RHR]

Could the circled areas be where possible safes could have been? (If they had any?) And also noting the dumb waiter went to the top floor in what may have been Honey’s dressing room.
View attachment 449718

View attachment 449714

https://media.houssmax.ca/201711/29/5a1f32afd3797.pdf

I don’t understand what that area was behind Honey’s bed. It didn’t seem to be a support beam because it didn’t extend down to the main floor.
View attachment 449734

There is a shelf with flowers on it i think.

 

[RHR]

 

[AndrewM71]

What makes you think the second one escaped camera detection?
We only know what the TPS has shown us.
Nobody on this site was aware of the NW until the TPS showed him.

Rest assured there is quite a significant amount of evidence that is being held back. Proof is the amount of redacted lines in documents that the TPS has released so far.

Because at this late and desperate stage, I can’t imagine a scenario where they would release footage of one perpetrator and not the second.

 

[sandy_80]

I dont exactly trust the ppl who were working there..so who are we going to take the word for the state of the house after the murders ? I keep coming to this
is we dont trust the servants or the family ..and this le never bothered with inspecting anyway
how are we to know how the rooms looked after the murders..if there was a search for something and if it was indeed taken !

 

[Cedars]

She may have been smacked in the face upstairs and then forced to walk downstairs. Her hands may have been tied up upstairs to keep her from running.

Then Barry showed up and was attacked and killed. His body was likely placed by the pool first and hers after, otherwise they would have dragged her body over his. I seem to remember something to that effect mentioned before but I can't remember if it was in the documentary.

KD must have reasons for withholding information. I hope we start to see more news about this soon.

Yes, I agree that's a possible scenario. Thing is, that could have been done by just the 1 perp. Yet KD says there must have been 2. Can one rely on that as factual?

JMO

 

[Cedars]

Because at this late and desperate stage, I can’t imagine a scenario where they would release footage of one perpetrator and not the second.

Also, if there was an accomplice, why not 2 WM's? There's no inherent reason to arrive and leave by separate routes, that just creates more opportunities for police to successfully trace one of them. Presumably, WM was using the route that felt most secure from detection.

JMO

 

[Lexiintoronto]

She may have been smacked in the face upstairs and then forced to walk downstairs. Her hands may have been tied up upstairs to keep her from running.

Then Barry showed up and was attacked and killed. His body was likely placed by the pool first and hers after, otherwise they would have dragged her body over his. I seem to remember something to that effect mentioned before but I can't remember if it was in the documentary.

KD must have reasons for withholding information. I hope we start to see more news about this soon.

A couple of pages back Dotr posted this link to one of KD’s Q & As, and he touched on the topic:

KD said there was some type of dust on the pool room surface and some of it was on the back of Honey’s shoes. Maybe Barry’s shoes didn’t have the same dust* on them? (* @branmuffin suggested it could have been efflorescence. In some of the photos you can see a white substance on the basement tile floors that looks like it.)

 

[Cedars]

A couple of pages back Dotr posted this link to one of KD’s Q & As, and he touched on the topic:
View attachment 449795View attachment 449796

KD said there was some type of dust on the pool room surface and some of it was on the back of Honey’s shoes. Maybe Barry’s shoes didn’t have the same dust* on them? (* @branmuffin suggested it could have been efflorescence. In some of the photos you can see a white substance on the basement tile floors that looks like it.)

Thanks I missed that.

That description indicates, to me, a very deliberate attempt to stage M-S. Otherwise, why pick up a body that can easily be dragged, just like the other one was?

JMO

 

[Warwick1991]

Could the circled areas be where possible safes could have been? (If they had any?) And also noting the dumb waiter went to the top floor in what may have been Honey’s dressing room.
View attachment 449718

View attachment 449714

https://media.houssmax.ca/201711/29/5a1f32afd3797.pdf

I don’t understand what that area was behind Honey’s bed. It didn’t seem to be a support beam because it didn’t extend down to the main floor.
View attachment 449734

The enclosed X near the entrance to the 2nd floor office is likely to be a chimney shaft enclosure, as it appears to be aligned with a fireplace below.

 

[dotr]

Did the killer happen to attend the community meeting 2 weeks prior to the murders, concerning hiring a security company to patrol after numerous break-ins in the area?
Lengthy article which also includes the pm pool sketch. rbbm, speculation, fwiw

Large amount of cash found in Honey and Barry Sherman’s wallets ruled out a break-in

When the discovery of money and portable valuables made a robbery seem unlikely, police formed a theory that the Shermans died in a murder-suicide.

www.thestar.com

February 10, 2023
''The local Toronto officers present were aware of the rash of break-ins. But as they looked around the Sherman’s 12,000-square-foot home there were no obvious signs that someone had looted the place. Officers quickly found both Sherman wallets (sources say Honey’s, containing $7,500, was in the kitchen near where she entered the home) and spotted the cash. They also noticed two iPads in the Shermans’ bedroom, Honey’s iPhone in a powder room she never used, and Barry’s BlackBerry on the basement floor near where he entered the house from the underground garage. The Star does not know where Barry’s wallet was. It contained $372, credit cards and loyalty cards.''

''Through a recent court hearing, the Star learned that police are seeking information in three countries that they hope will help them crack the case. Police have refused to identify the countries or reveal what they are seeking. The process, which requires contact between justice officials in Canada and the foreign countries could take a year or more, the Star has been told by police.''

''Even the Sherman home had been a target the previous year. Thieves went in through a skylight and took some valuables.
“That community was incredibly alarmed,” former Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders later told reporters. There was a community meeting less than two weeks before the Shermans died and police suggested neighbours band together and hire a security company to patrol the streets, and individuals purchase home security systems. One community leader told the Star there was “real pushback” from homeowners who did not want to fund private security and instead wanted police to step up patrols.

 

[FPoulet]

Because at this late and desperate stage, I can’t imagine a scenario where they would release footage of one perpetrator and not the second.

Unless they don’t need help identifying the other person(s).

 

[FPoulet]

Yes, I agree that's a possible scenario. Thing is, that could have been done by just the 1 perp. Yet KD says there must have been 2. Can one rely on that as factual?

JMO

Could it be done with one person? Could one person reliably bind H’s wrists without help? Without someone holding a gun? Or without conking her on the head? Possibly, but reliably? An amateur? I think it wouldn’t be easy as apparently Honey was heavy and strong. MOO.

 

[AddyFinch]

KD said there was some type of dust on the pool room surface and some of it was on the back of Honey’s shoes. Maybe Barry’s shoes didn’t have the same dust* on them? (* @branmuffin suggested it could have been efflorescence. In some of the photos you can see a white substance on the basement tile floors that looks like it.)

To my understanding "mules" have no backs on them. Sling backs have no backs but are held onto heel by a strap. If HS was wearing mules and dragged backwards by her arms, those shoes would have fallen off. Sling backs would have the potential of also falling off, but might have stayed put. If she was dragged face down, the shoes would stay on, and toes would be scuffed.
Would she be wearing mules in the winter? Maybe if they were house shoes or she was using the garage.
Would mules have stayed on during a physical altercation? I doubt it.
Is that an alarm system top left corner of wall where floral display is in bedroom? If so, I wonder if it's wired to outdoor door, or a beam in bedroom?

 

[FPoulet]

Also, if there was an accomplice, why not 2 WM's? There's no inherent reason to arrive and leave by separate routes, that just creates more opportunities for police to successfully trace one of them. Presumably, WM was using the route that felt most secure from detection.

JMO

Unless one did enter earlier or with H or B? With Barry there might not be footage since he parked underground.

 

[MerlinFalcon]

To my understanding "mules" have no backs on them. Sling backs have no backs but are held onto heel by a strap. If HS was wearing mules and dragged backwards by her arms, those shoes would have fallen off. Sling backs would have the potential of also falling off, but might have stayed put. If she was dragged face down, the shoes would stay on, and toes would be scuffed.
Would she be wearing mules in the winter? Maybe if they were house shoes or she was using the garage.
Would mules have stayed on during a physical altercation? I doubt it.
Is that an alarm system top left corner of wall where floral display is in bedroom? If so, I wonder if it's wired to outdoor door, or a beam in bedroom?

There was snow on the ground so the mules were likely indoor shoes. She was at Apotex and the mall earlier so the most logical thing would have been that she got out of her boots and put the mules on.