CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #22

[AddyFinch]

I like your thinking, and I agree with #1 in particular. I know a few Jewish families with similar family history, and they do indeed have safes built into their homes, with large sums of “ commodities” to be exchanged for cash in the event they should need.I think holocaust survivors children, have been raised by parents who never want to be destitute again and with access to money, “flight” might be possible.
HS cash in her wallet, could have been housekeeper‘s salary while they were away? Although my guess is housekeeper was on salary? Or if in US funds maybe cab, groceries etc for a Florida arrival….lol, who am I kidding, she probably had a housekeeper in Florida who would preorder groceries?
Apotex would have a security firm, would they be “rentacop” type or corporate espionage type? I still wonder if any plans were in the making to sell Apotex prior to murders. Did JS know?

 

[FPoulet]

I like your thinking, and I agree with #1 in particular. I know a few Jewish families with similar family history, and they do indeed have safes built into their homes, with large sums of “ commodities” to be exchanged for cash in the event they should need.I think holocaust survivors children, have been raised by parents who never want to be destitute again and with access to money, “flight” might be possible.
HS cash in her wallet, could have been housekeeper‘s salary while they were away? Although my guess is housekeeper was on salary? Or if in US funds maybe cab, groceries etc for a Florida arrival….lol, who am I kidding, she probably had a housekeeper in Florida who would preorder groceries?
Apotex would have a security firm, would they be “rentacop” type or corporate espionage type? I still wonder if any plans were in the making to sell Apotex prior to murders. Did JS know?

I think the cash Honey had was likely for holiday cash tips. MOO.

I doubt Honey and Barry paid for their own assassin from stashed cash but who knows. That would certainly be ironic.

 

[sandy_80]

2020 rbbm

Lawyers for Ontario, Apotex struck deal on what detectives could access in Sherman murder investigation. It took one month

Documents unsealed by a judge last week reveal details of legal wrangling that took place over what detectives could access in their investigation of the murders of Honey and Barry Sherman.

www.thestar.com

''Barry’s BlackBerry is discovered nearby, and his office computer and cluttered desk are surely awash with clues.
But hold on. Due to a protocol hammered out by government lawyers and counsel for the late Barry Sherman’s firm Apotex, you cannot look at any of this information until lawyers for the generic drug giant decide what police can and cannot see due to legal privilege concerns.
Police were told that if they spotted something — perhaps a sticky note on Sherman’s desk, a cancelled appointment in his calendar, the time of his last phone call — they were forbidden to act on the information until the lawyers give the green light.''

how does anyone has privilege about potential murder evidence..lawyers and family can hide all they want this case

 

[sandy_80]

I like your thinking, and I agree with #1 in particular. I know a few Jewish families with similar family history, and they do indeed have safes built into their homes, with large sums of “ commodities” to be exchanged for cash in the event they should need.I think holocaust survivors children, have been raised by parents who never want to be destitute again and with access to money, “flight” might be possible.
HS cash in her wallet, could have been housekeeper‘s salary while they were away? Although my guess is housekeeper was on salary? Or if in US funds maybe cab, groceries etc for a Florida arrival….lol, who am I kidding, she probably had a housekeeper in Florida who would preorder groceries?
Apotex would have a security firm, would they be “rentacop” type or corporate espionage type? I still wonder if any plans were in the making to sell Apotex prior to murders. Did JS know?

didnt the cash come from an ATM I recall ? and she was shopping for her grandkids
would she draw from there if they had cash at home ? unless these are money for other purposes thas not to be touched

 

[WINDSOR]

As I’ve already stated, in my opinion if they knew the identity of one person, they would be able to figure out the identity of the second person and/or arrest the first.

I wish it were that simple. For example, the TPS have video of me leaving the Sherman house that evening about 10:30 pm. They arrest me and charge me with murder. I lawyer up right away and say nothing to the TPS.

The TPS then have to go and convince the judge and jury I have committed a murder. Other than seeing me walk away from the Sherman house, what evidence do they have? If they have further proof I was in the home (DNA and so on) My lawyers says, 'yes he was in the house visiting, and when he left the Sherman's home they were alive and fine'.

Now in reality, we would expect the TPS have discovered a motive, and other circumstantial evidence that points to me being a killer. Maybe some evidence to prove that Sherman's died before I left the home, or I bought the ligatures the day before, that were used to kill them.

In conclusion, the TPS may have a video and know the identity of another individual from that night. Not enough alone to convict, and you do not arrest and charge unless you have a reasonable expectation of a conviction. IMO

 

[AndrewM71]

I wish it were that simple. For example, the TPS have video of me leaving the Sherman house that evening about 10:30 pm. They arrest me and charge me with murder. I lawyer up right away and say nothing to the TPS.

The TPS then have to go and convince the judge and jury I have committed a murder. Other than seeing me walk away from the Sherman house, what evidence do they have? If they have further proof I was in the home (DNA and so on) My lawyers says, 'yes he was in the house visiting, and when he left the Sherman's home they were alive and fine'.

Now in reality, we would expect the TPS have discovered a motive, and other circumstantial evidence that points to me being a killer. Maybe some evidence to prove that Sherman's died before I left the home, or I bought the ligatures the day before, that were used to kill them.

In conclusion, the TPS may have a video and know the identity of another individual from that night. Not enough alone to convict, and you do not arrest and charge unless you have a reasonable expectation of a conviction. IMO

It’s funny how people keep trying to explain things to me that they assume I haven’t considered, when in fact I have.

Your scenario works for you, not for me. I can’t imagine a scenario in which they have known the identity of one killer for years and to this point haven’t been able to extract physical, eyewitness or circumstantial evidence that would support the laying of charges. It’s a very narrow path, it doesn’t work for me. You are free to hang your hat on that, I won’t.

Anyway, I’m done with explaining myself. I initially said “I can’t imagine a scenario” and people keep saying things that I have in fact considered, but they assume I haven’t. I thought my wording was simple and unequivocal.

I’m fully aware of the evidentiary requirements to lay charges. No need to condescend to me with such simple facts.

Do you really think I don’t know that? I’ll take a break from here, don’t need to be talked down to like I’m an idiot.

 

[Cedars]

In conclusion, the TPS may have a video and know the identity of another individual from that night. Not enough alone to convict, and you do not arrest and charge unless you have a reasonable expectation of a conviction. IMO

I agree, but there is the issue of not alerting suspects of what they known or suspect... that's why the video of WM was not released for years, it was more important to the investigation to keep that hidden, than the remote likelihood it would generate a tip.

On the other hand, there's also been cases when LE release something to the public, to try to rattle suspect(s) that they have on surveillance, generate a phone call between conspirators or something.

JMO

 

[FPoulet]

It’s funny how people keep trying to explain things to me that they assume I haven’t considered, when in fact I have.

Your scenario works for you, not for me. I can’t imagine a scenario in which they have known the identity of one killer for years and to this point haven’t been able to extract physical, eyewitness or circumstantial evidence that would support the laying of charges. It’s a very narrow path, it doesn’t work for me. You are free to hang your hat on that, I won’t.

Anyway, I’m done with explaining myself. I initially said “I can’t imagine a scenario” and people keep saying things that I have in fact considered, but they assume I haven’t. I thought my wording was simple and unequivocal.

I’m fully aware of the evidentiary requirements to lay charges. No need to condescend to me with such simple facts.

Do you really think I don’t know that? I’ll take a break from here, don’t need to be talked down to like I’m an idiot.

I don’t think anyone intends to condescend to you. You are clearly smart and very possibly a lawyer yourself. People are simply engaging in the topics. Speaking for myself, I did not assume that you hadn’t turned your mind to the points I made. But that didn’t mean I couldn’t make the points nonetheless— even if just for the benefit of others or myself. I’m sorry that you feel you need to take a break, as I enjoy when you weigh in.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

how does anyone has privilege about potential murder evidence..lawyers and family can hide all they want this case

The IT security and technology Pharma spend money on is all about protecting data and who has access to that data. As we know it is a cut throat and competitive industry, I know someone who does IT technical support for one very large Pharma and they have some of the strictest rules and regulations to even log into any of their networks. More than any bank has. Barry used devices provided and managed by APOTEX technology. Possibly Honey’s phone was on a corporate APOTEX account too?

APOTEX own the data and would be the only entity that could give permission for anyone to see any data, be it an email, a text, a voicemail or any attachment file to any of the fore-mentioned.

If Barry was using his blackberry for the call from DH and the call went to that vm, APOTEX had to be the entity to give permission for anyone to hear it. Possibly then the phone carrier had to approve as well, ie. Bell or Rogers Before LE received whole or partial details.

My curiosity is now peaked, did any family members, or their investigations via private agencies (we know of a couple agencies hired, are there more?) before APOTEX was sold, strike up or strengthen any communication or friendship with a Goodmans lawyer? Has KD tried? Not that they can share contents or confidential information, but could confirm little things like was the DH call a corporate or non corporate/personal matter Goodmans would or would not handle for APOTEX.

They seem to be in the know of more information than they bargained for, they had to read or listen to close to every piece of data evidence that was turned over, I assume plenty was read that was not turned over. Will we ever know if that is the missing link to solve this case?

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

It’s funny how people keep trying to explain things to me that they assume I haven’t considered, when in fact I have.

Your scenario works for you, not for me. I can’t imagine a scenario in which they have known the identity of one killer for years and to this point haven’t been able to extract physical, eyewitness or circumstantial evidence that would support the laying of charges. It’s a very narrow path, it doesn’t work for me. You are free to hang your hat on that, I won’t.

Anyway, I’m done with explaining myself. I initially said “I can’t imagine a scenario” and people keep saying things that I have in fact considered, but they assume I haven’t. I thought my wording was simple and unequivocal.

I’m fully aware of the evidentiary requirements to lay charges. No need to condescend to me with such simple facts.

Do you really think I don’t know that? I’ll take a break from here, don’t need to be talked down to like I’m an idiot.

I hope you do not need more than an hour or two of a break, personally I look forward to your posts. They are straight forward, knowledgeable, educational and most importantly respectful.

A song came to mind, KC &The Sunshine Band, Please Don’t Go.

 

[Cedars]

''Even the Sherman home had been a target the previous year. Thieves went in through a skylight and took some valuables...There was a community meeting less than two weeks before the Shermans died and police suggested neighbours band together and hire a security company to patrol the streets,

Could it be done with one person? Could one person reliably bind H’s wrists without help? Without someone holding a gun? Or without conking her on the head? Possibly, but reliably? An amateur? I think it wouldn’t be easy as apparently Honey was heavy and strong. MOO.

It occurs to me, with the Sherman's having been burgled before, with the other recent burglaries in the neighbourhood, would Barry and Honey put up a life-or-death fight? Perhaps they were told/believed the intruder was only there to steal stuff?

Many people don't fight back, allow themselves to be tied up, even tie each other up, per the Golden State killer.

Or, like the advice to store/bank employees, don't try to be the hero, just cooperate and give them what they want.

Why would they assume someone was there to kill them? Combination of threats, fear, hope of surviving. Already felt violence against Honey, this person means business, don't resist, we're just being tied up in the pool room while the intruder ransacks the house.

Then when they're helpless to resist, strangled quickly from behind. IMO, separately, since once the awareness that it's murder hits, then the fighting back escalates.

JMO

 

[ollie2]

I dont exactly trust the ppl who were working there..so who are we going to take the word for the state of the house after the murders ? I keep coming to this
is we dont trust the servants or the family ..and this le never bothered with inspecting anyway
how are we to know how the rooms looked after the murders..if there was a search for something and if it was indeed taken !

Please don't refer to those doing domestic work "servants."

 

[AddyFinch]

I didn't find Windsor condescending, I'm sorry you took it that way. All's good, sometimes typed words without emotion or voices, tones etc can come out incorrect, and some of us type as we think, and it becomes muddled. Don't take a break! Keep chiming in, I think Windsor's a pretty good head, and didn't mean anything untoward.
Ok... everyone back to work, enough goofing off.
Personally I don't think one assailant could pull this off, they must have had help.

 

[ldlager]

It occurs to me, with the Sherman's having been burgled before, with the other recent burglaries in the neighbourhood, would Barry and Honey put up a life-or-death fight? Perhaps they were told/believed the intruder was only there to steal stuff?

Many people don't fight back, allow themselves to be tied up, even tie each other up, per the Golden State killer.

Or, like the advice to store/bank employees, don't try to be the hero, just cooperate and give them what they want.

Why would they assume someone was there to kill them? Combination of threats, fear, hope of surviving. Already felt violence against Honey, this person means business, don't resist, we're just being tied up in the pool room while the intruder ransacks the house.

Then when they're helpless to resist, strangled quickly from behind. IMO, separately, since once the awareness that it's murder hits, then the fighting back escalates.

JMO

If the Sherman’s knew their assailants then they knew they were going to be murdered. Imo

 

[FPoulet]

If the Sherman’s knew their assailants then they knew they were going to be murdered. Imo

I agree with this, sadly. Because once a person goes down that path (e.g., binding them with zip ties, menacing them, and also showing one’s own face), there is no exit ramp except with *huge vulnerability* for the known assailant(s). I doubt that an assailant who has gone this far would have an 11th hour mea culpa moment and face that huge vulnerability head on.

 

[WINDSOR]

It’s funny how people keep trying to explain things to me that they assume I haven’t considered, when in fact I have.

Your scenario works for you, not for me. I can’t imagine a scenario in which they have known the identity of one killer for years and to this point haven’t been able to extract physical, eyewitness or circumstantial evidence that would support the laying of charges. It’s a very narrow path, it doesn’t work for me. You are free to hang your hat on that, I won’t.

Anyway, I’m done with explaining myself. I initially said “I can’t imagine a scenario” and people keep saying things that I have in fact considered, but they assume I haven’t. I thought my wording was simple and unequivocal.

I’m fully aware of the evidentiary requirements to lay charges. No need to condescend to me with such simple facts.

Do you really think I don’t know that? I’ll take a break from here, don’t need to be talked down to like I’m an idiot.

Sorry if I offended you in any way. For that I apologize.

When I write things on this forum, I take the attitude that I am speaking to the many individuals who are members. Especially in this post I was in no way aiming my message or any derogatory views at you, AndrewM71.

On a forum like this, the ability to express various ideas, theories and alternative scenarios is I believe a good thing.

You posited the view, that if the TPS had known the identity of another person, they would have arrested him. I suggested a situation where they would not make an arrest.

The fact you do not believe or accept my scenario is fine, but others on the forum could be interested in a alternative point of view.

I am glad you are fully aware of evidentiary requirements, but I would hazard a guess that not all forum members, especially those who do not reside in Canada are familiar with many details of our legal system.

 

[WINDSOR]

The IT security and technology Pharma spend money on is all about protecting data and who has access to that data. As we know it is a cut throat and competitive industry, I know someone who does IT technical support for one very large Pharma and they have some of the strictest rules and regulations to even log into any of their networks. More than any bank has. Barry used devices provided and managed by APOTEX technology. Possibly Honey’s phone was on a corporate APOTEX account too?

APOTEX own the data and would be the only entity that could give permission for anyone to see any data, be it an email, a text, a voicemail or any attachment file to any of the fore-mentioned.

If Barry was using his blackberry for the call from DH and the call went to that vm, APOTEX had to be the entity to give permission for anyone to hear it. Possibly then the phone carrier had to approve as well, ie. Bell or Rogers Before LE received whole or partial details.

My curiosity is now peaked, did any family members, or their investigations via private agencies (we know of a couple agencies hired, are there more?) before APOTEX was sold, strike up or strengthen any communication or friendship with a Goodmans lawyer? Has KD tried? Not that they can share contents or confidential information, but could confirm little things like was the DH call a corporate or non corporate/personal matter Goodmans would or would not handle for APOTEX.

They seem to be in the know of more information than they bargained for, they had to read or listen to close to every piece of data evidence that was turned over, I assume plenty was read that was not turned over. Will we ever know if that is the missing link to solve this case?

Good points.

Not sure myself, but if either of the Sherman's cell phones were paid for by Apotex, (a possibly scenario considering Barry's spending habits) would all data and information on the phone(s) be property of Apotex, and therefore Apotex could retain and withhold from LE, anything they felt was propriety information?

 

[FPoulet]

Good points.

Not sure myself, but if either of the Sherman's cell phones were paid for by Apotex, (a possibly scenario considering Barry's spending habits) would all data and information on the phone(s) be property of Apotex, and therefore Apotex could retain and withhold from LE, anything they felt was propriety information?

I think anything related to Apotex would be subject to the “privilege review” done by Goodmans, including Barry’s and Honey’s devices. And as the owners of Apotex, I think that the estate trustees would have the ultimate authority to instruct Goodmans on those matters. MOO.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Campbell and Altstedter make clear that the formerly close-knit family has seen relations deteriorate. Two of the couple's children—Jonathon, now 40, and Alexandra, 37—stopped speaking in 2019. Four sources say Alexandra cut off contact after suspecting Jonathon may have had a hand in the murders; police sources say there's no evidence of that. All the children have cut ties with Honey's sister, Mary Shechtman, apparently after Shechtman began insisting Honey's plan had been to leave her hundreds of millions (Barry Sherman's net worth was an estimated $3.6 billion). The full article also delves into breakdowns between the kids and various employees of Apotex, the generic pharmaceutical producer Sherman founded, as well as the manager of the family's holding company. (Read it here.)

'They Were Among the Wealthiest Murder Victims in History'

'Bloomberg Businessweek' revisits the case of Barry and Honey Sherman

www.newser.com

 

[RHR]

Campbell and Altstedter make clear that the formerly close-knit family has seen relations deteriorate. Two of the couple's children—Jonathon, now 40, and Alexandra, 37—stopped speaking in 2019. Four sources say Alexandra cut off contact after suspecting Jonathon may have had a hand in the murders; police sources say there's no evidence of that. All the children have cut ties with Honey's sister, Mary Shechtman, apparently after Shechtman began insisting Honey's plan had been to leave her hundreds of millions (Barry Sherman's net worth was an estimated $3.6 billion). The full article also delves into breakdowns between the kids and various employees of Apotex, the generic pharmaceutical producer Sherman founded, as well as the manager of the family's holding company. (Read it here.)

'They Were Among the Wealthiest Murder Victims in History'

'Bloomberg Businessweek' revisits the case of Barry and Honey Sherman

www.newser.com

I think he was worth ten million. He apparently wasn't aware of many of his investments.