CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #24

[FromGermany1]

@FromGermany1

Reference to LW?
Meaning L___ Will?
What kind of will?
TiA.

Last Will

 

[WINDSOR]

But how would the public know what has or hasn't happened? IMO, any lawyer involved would not call up Kevin Donovan and give him the inside scoop and all the details.

JMO

With the amount of publicity about this crime at the time, any lawyer with any level of professionalism would inform the the the Court which was handling the estate, of the existence of a Will for Honey. A lawyer has a duty to represent his client's best interests. Withholding information about the existence of a Will for Honey certainly would not be representing her interests.

 

[WINDSOR]

wibbleflea said..​

'.....that Honey had told her repeatedly about the importance of having a will and had also told her that she had just updated hers at her lawyer’s office.'

Whoever the service provider was, I find it most surprising that Honey Sherman, would even have this type of conversation with a staffer. Wills are very personal, and I think Honey would have been quite discrete about financial documents like a will.

Assuming the staffer had a number of clients, and visited a number of homes over a given period of time, it is not out of the realm of possibility that he/she may have conflated different conversations with different clients. Under great deal of stress this does happen to witnesses. Having a client and friend murdered, would be stressful.

 

[Sillybilly]

Last Will

Legal term is LWT (which means Last Will & Testament)

 

[al66pine]

There are wills and wills. Advanced healthcare directives were called a living will in the 90es. I wonder if the “will” Honey spoke about could be of a different kind. JMO.

@Charlot123

Yes, when reading "LW" in earlier post, that's what came to mind--- a living will, now more commonly called an advance medical directive.

Articles* do not use term last will or living will, not that I'd expect them to.

Just BTW, interesting & new to me, the bit below about “primary” and “secondary” wills in Ontario.

@FromGermany1 Thx for your response.

_________________________
Thx @wibbleflea & @dotr for links.
From Dec. 2018
".... While Honey appears not to have had a will, Barry had both a “primary” and a “secondary” will. In Ontario, people who own a private business often have two wills. The primary will includes such things as real estate, vehicles and publicly traded shares — holdings that typically go to “probate” and for which an estate administration tax must be paid to the government. No estate tax has to be paid on anything left in secondary wills, which typically house shares in private companies. In the Sherman case, his company Apotex is privately held, mostly by the Shermans...."

Where is Honey Sherman’s will?

A year after Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered in their Toronto home, a court-ordered veil of secrecy shrouds details of the billionaire couple’s estate as the search for their killers continues — and Honey’s will, if it even exists, remains undiscovered.

www.thestar.com

From Dec. 2019.

PressReader.com - Digital Newspaper & Magazine Subscriptions

Digital newsstand featuring 7000+ of the world’s most popular newspapers & magazines. Enjoy unlimited reading on up to 5 devices with 7-day free trial.

www.pressreader.com

 

[al66pine]

Law Firms. Contents of Client's Will, Will File.

With the amount of publicity about this crime at the time, any lawyer with any level of professionalism would inform the the the Court which was handling the estate, of the existence of a Will for Honey. A lawyer has a duty to represent his client's best interests. Withholding information about the existence of a Will for Honey certainly would not be representing her interests.

@WINDSOR Thanks for your post.

FWIW, from a law firm in Canada.*
"Privilege & Releasing the Lawyer’s Will File
"Navigating the release of a lawyer’s will file can be a difficult task. The general rule is that the contents of a will file, including the will itself, is confidential and subject to solicitor-client privilege. The will file cannot be released to anyone during the will-maker’s life or after the will-maker’s death unless the request falls within one of the well-known and commonly accepted exceptions. Those exceptions are as follows:

"The will-maker has given express direction to release the contents of the will file
"The will-maker requests the contents of the will file pursuant to their ownership rights in the contents of the file
"A will-maker proxy (such as attorney under a power of attorney, court appointed committee or executor) asks for the contents of the will file in their role as proxy (this being an extension of the point above)
"A court order directs the lawyer to release the contents of the will file
In Canada, generally speaking, a lawyer cannot release the contents of a will file unless the request falls within one of the above exceptions. A lawyer who does so would be subject to discipline by the Law Society and censure by the court."

Privilege & Releasing the Lawyer's Will File - Tradition Law LLP

Privilege & Releasing the Lawyer’s Will File Navigating the release of a lawyer’s will file can be a difficult task. The general rule is that the contents of a will file, including the will itself, is confidential and subject to solicitor-client privilege. The will file cannot be released to...

www.traditionlaw.ca

Like I said, FWIW.

______________________________
* Firm address is in Manitoba. In atty bio section, at least one partner is licensed in ONT.
"We write textbooks and build websites that are used across Canada."

 

[wibbleflea]

Whoever the service provider was, I find it most surprising that Honey Sherman, would even have this type of conversation with a staffer. Wills are very personal, and I think Honey would have been quite discrete about financial documents like a will.

Perhaps. My feeling, though, is that long-term service providers (and this one had been working with Honey for some time) do establish positions of trust. I'm a service provider and have several rich clients (and many who aren't rich, of course). For clients with whom I've been working for years, I have seen full details of bank accounts holding millions, acted as witness for legal documents and wills, etc. I've even provided advice about things, based purely on personal experience and not professional expertise. Many have become friends. I'm not an attorney, solicitor or medical professional but I get to know a lot, including the details of internal family drama and personal problems, though I'm not a therapist, psychologist or financial expert. It happens more often than you'd suspect when you speak with someone at length, regularly, over many years, even if that person is rich. I sometimes deal with several people in a family and know things about each person that the others don't know. And I don't think I'm unusual – I think this phenomenon is quite common. I wasn't always comfortable with it when it first happened but it does now seem routine.

The detail that the service provider listed – Honey calling her just after a meeting with nearby lawyers and offering her a ride to her (Honey's) home, telling her she'd just updated her will, repeatedly emphasising the importance of having a will – all seem credible. I'm not insisting they're true but I wouldn't dismiss them based on the social circumstances.

 

[wibbleflea]

Law Firms. Contents of Client's Will, Will File.

@WINDSOR Thanks for your post.

FWIW, from a law firm in Canada.*
"Privilege & Releasing the Lawyer’s Will File
"Navigating the release of a lawyer’s will file can be a difficult task. The general rule is that the contents of a will file, including the will itself, is confidential and subject to solicitor-client privilege. The will file cannot be released to anyone during the will-maker’s life or after the will-maker’s death unless the request falls within one of the well-known and commonly accepted exceptions. Those exceptions are as follows:

"The will-maker has given express direction to release the contents of the will file
"The will-maker requests the contents of the will file pursuant to their ownership rights in the contents of the file
"A will-maker proxy (such as attorney under a power of attorney, court appointed committee or executor) asks for the contents of the will file in their role as proxy (this being an extension of the point above)
"A court order directs the lawyer to release the contents of the will file
In Canada, generally speaking, a lawyer cannot release the contents of a will file unless the request falls within one of the above exceptions. A lawyer who does so would be subject to discipline by the Law Society and censure by the court."

Privilege & Releasing the Lawyer's Will File - Tradition Law LLP

Privilege & Releasing the Lawyer’s Will File Navigating the release of a lawyer’s will file can be a difficult task. The general rule is that the contents of a will file, including the will itself, is confidential and subject to solicitor-client privilege. The will file cannot be released to...

www.traditionlaw.ca

Like I said, FWIW.

______________________________
* Firm address is in Manitoba. In atty bio section, at least one partner is licensed in ONT.
"We write textbooks and build websites that are used across Canada."

Excellent – thank you!

 

[fadedglitter]

What I (and I think others) am saying is that a lawyer who had an executed copy of Honey’s will would have contacted the court or the executor and then waited to receive a court order if that was necessary under the circumstances.

Nobody here is suggesting a lawyer would call the Toronto Star. Only that it would be unethical to allow a client to be declared intestate if the lawyer had an executed copy of the will.

 

[Cedars]

With the amount of publicity about this crime at the time, any lawyer with any level of professionalism would inform the the the Court which was handling the estate, of the existence of a Will for Honey. A lawyer has a duty to represent his client's best interests. Withholding information about the existence of a Will for Honey certainly would not be representing her interests.

Yes of course, I know that.

I was addressing the OP's speculation that she may have had an incomplete or invalid will.

"No will was found. It could mean it hadn’t been completed (that instructions were given on updates) but there could be other reasons..."

JMO

 

[MerlinFalcon]

wibbleflea said..​

'.....that Honey had told her repeatedly about the importance of having a will and had also told her that she had just updated hers at her lawyer’s office.'

Whoever the service provider was, I find it most surprising that Honey Sherman, would even have this type of conversation with a staffer. Wills are very personal, and I think Honey would have been quite discrete about financial documents like a will.

Assuming the staffer had a number of clients, and visited a number of homes over a given period of time, it is not out of the realm of possibility that he/she may have conflated different conversations with different clients. Under great deal of stress this does happen to witnesses. Having a client and friend murdered, would be stressful.

I’m a service provider with many long term clients, some who I’ve been with for 20 years. I don’t think it’s strange for her to talk to one of hers at all. We do find out all kinds of things about our clients and they find things out about us.

 

[wibbleflea]

What I (and I think others) am saying is that a lawyer who had an executed copy of Honey’s will would have contacted the court or the executor and then waited to receive a court order if that was necessary under the circumstances.

Nobody here is suggesting a lawyer would call the Toronto Star. Only that it would be unethical to allow a client to be declared intestate if the lawyer had an executed copy of the will.

Agreed with that. Edited to add: we don't know if Honey's lawyers were also acting for Barry (or other family members).

 

[AndrewM71]

Law Firms. Contents of Client's Will, Will File.

@WINDSOR Thanks for your post.

FWIW, from a law firm in Canada.*
"Privilege & Releasing the Lawyer’s Will File
"Navigating the release of a lawyer’s will file can be a difficult task. The general rule is that the contents of a will file, including the will itself, is confidential and subject to solicitor-client privilege. The will file cannot be released to anyone during the will-maker’s life or after the will-maker’s death unless the request falls within one of the well-known and commonly accepted exceptions. Those exceptions are as follows:

"The will-maker has given express direction to release the contents of the will file
"The will-maker requests the contents of the will file pursuant to their ownership rights in the contents of the file
"A will-maker proxy (such as attorney under a power of attorney, court appointed committee or executor) asks for the contents of the will file in their role as proxy (this being an extension of the point above)
"A court order directs the lawyer to release the contents of the will file
In Canada, generally speaking, a lawyer cannot release the contents of a will file unless the request falls within one of the above exceptions. A lawyer who does so would be subject to discipline by the Law Society and censure by the court."

Privilege & Releasing the Lawyer's Will File - Tradition Law LLP

Privilege & Releasing the Lawyer’s Will File Navigating the release of a lawyer’s will file can be a difficult task. The general rule is that the contents of a will file, including the will itself, is confidential and subject to solicitor-client privilege. The will file cannot be released to...

www.traditionlaw.ca

Like I said, FWIW.

______________________________
* Firm address is in Manitoba. In atty bio section, at least one partner is licensed in ONT.
"We write textbooks and build websites that are used across Canada."

The will file is a separate issue from the actual will. A signed will is always to be released to the executors upon death, that’s the standard procedure. Nobody is getting a court order to get a lawyer to produce the will. The whole point of it is to put the testator’s estate plan into effect upon death; holding it thwarts its very purpose.

Not saying you were suggesting that but people have before.

 

[hexicon]

I think the way of harmonizing the available evidence (confidant's statement that Honey had just "updated" the will in November yet the lack of probated will) is that Honey had begun the process of writing a will.

The November meeting referred to by the confidant was IMO likely an initial meeting with the lawyers to discuss her wishes. For a person of Honey's wealth, such a document could not be drafted and executed overnight. I also speculate that her testamentary wishes could be relatively complex if there is at least some truth to Mary's statements that Honey intended to provide for Mary and Mary's children, and perhaps she wished to make specific provision for grandchildren. There were also media reports about her interest in signing the Bill Gates giving pledge. All of this would require legal and tax analysis, plus time for discussion with the client or clients and possible revision, then drafting and the formalities of execution.

In Honey's mind the process could well have been complete at the supposed November meeting, because she'd made up her mind and given instructions to the lawyers, but from the lawyers' perspective an executed will would be a long way off--probably after the new year.

And of course only my speculation, but the prospect of a will that deviated significantly from intestate succession (divided among children if no surviving spouse) would be a powerful motive.

 

[fadedglitter]

Honey could only have willed what she personally owned:

Honey had $45.9 million in personal property and $9.5 million in real estate.

This is still a very large amount but not the billions some assume were at stake. We do not know the details of the trusts she had set up for loved ones.

 

[al66pine]

Honey's Will?

I think the way of harmonizing the available evidence (confidant's statement that Honey had just "updated" the will in November yet the lack of probated will) is that Honey had begun the process of writing a will.

The November meeting referred to by the confidant was IMO likely an initial meeting with the lawyers to discuss her wishes. For a person of Honey's wealth, such a document could not be drafted and executed overnight. I also speculate that her testamentary wishes could be relatively complex if there is at least some truth to Mary's statements that Honey intended to provide for Mary and Mary's children, and perhaps she wished to make specific provision for grandchildren. There were also media reports about her interest in signing the Bill Gates giving pledge. All of this would require legal and tax analysis, plus time for discussion with the client or clients and possible revision, then drafting and the formalities of execution.

In Honey's mind the process could well have been complete at the supposed November meeting, because she'd made up her mind and given instructions to the lawyers, but from the lawyers' perspective an executed will would be a long way off--probably after the new year.

And of course only my speculation, but the prospect of a will that deviated significantly from intestate succession (divided among children if no surviving spouse) would be a powerful motive.

@hexicon
^Yes,^ possible that Honey's stmt to the "service provider" re meeting w atty/law firm may have been an initial meeting on the matter. Makes sense.

Also agreeing re prospect of a will w major deviation from intestate succession. Could be big, Big, BIG motive.

 

[hexicon]

Honey could only have willed what she personally owned:

If Honey's will existed and were submitted to probate at her death, as a legal matter the will could only direct the disposition of what she owned at her death.

But before her death Honey could write the will to dispose of her funds according to whatever contingencies she saw fit, including contingencies to address moneys she didn't yet own. (Contingencies in property settlements are subject to arcane legal principles such as the rule against perpetuities, etc.)

Barry was five years older than Honey, and according to Google women in Canada outlive men by about 4.5 years. So statistically Honey could expect to survive Barry by many years. Given the Shermans' means, responsible estate planning for Honey would have to consider the possibility of inheritance from Barry, even if it was just the income from a trust. And Honey's sister Mary has indicated that Honey was going to settle money on her (Mary), implying that Barry would have first given or willed the money to Honey. Honey's will could address potential money from Barry or his estate in any number of ways, simply by assuming a larger residual for the residual beneficiaries, or by specifying certain distributions if the residual exceeded a certain amount or other if-then provisions.

 

[Clark2002]

Does anyone know where the sculptures were located in the basement? On the floor plan I see a rec room, a sitting room and a hobby room. It appears on the floor plan that there is a door near the spiral staircase that leads to these 3 rooms. Even if the door leading to the rooms was open, I’m not sure that you could see into the rec room or sitting room from the bottom of the spiral staircase. If you can’t see, than how did the killer know they existed? Did they wander through the basement and find them or did they know about them ahead of time and had already planned to stage the bodies to resemble the sculptures? I wouldn’t think the person would wander around the house and possibly leave any more evidence than necessary. Who knew about the sculptures beforehand?

 

[branmuffin]

What do you think Jonathon meant when he said he and Lauren are “wired” the same ? Just thinking about this too much and wondering if anyone else thinks the girls need a closer look?? JMO

Many lined up at the ‘Bank of Barry’ Sherman: Inside the $10 billion succession battle

Sherman daughter says her life is more tragic than a Shakespeare play; Son Jonathon says of his sudden wealth, at some point it is just ‘extra zeros.’

www.thestar.com

For me, if someone thinks the two daughters should bare more scrutiny it would have more to do with who they were married to. Especially when one spouse was on the Board of Directors.

 

[ldlager]

Honey could only have willed what she personally owned:

Honey had $45.9 million in personal property and $9.5 million in real estate.

This is still a very large amount but not the billions some assume were at stake. We do not know the details of the trusts she had set up for loved ones.

Honeys estate could have included whatever BS left her if he had died say a year before her. The Will for HS would have included her assets at the time of her death, whenever that was in the future.