CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #24

[ldlager]

@fadedglitter, but I was going back to “alleged” M/S theory that was initially proposed by the police and is, of course, wrong.

If, however, the Shermans were killed upstairs, and from many descriptions it would seem that “upstairs” is more likely, how could they be moved downstairs?

Another question: were they killed upstairs? Why the trace of Velcro on their wrists? Was it antemortem or postmortem?

Someone had to know their habits, schedule and the construction of the house too well.

Does anyone remember for how long they had the house? Were the kids raised there? Did they remodel it after the kids moved out? The cleaning people, how long were the current ones employed and what happened to the previous ones?

I am thinking that either the cleaning people or the rental agents would have the best idea about the layout. Also, since the house was on sale, was the inspection done?

I am thinking about someone else than the kids, tbh. Someone had to have the intimate knowledge of the “corners” of the house.

Charlot, I am not aware of any “traces of Velcro” on their wrists. Can you please expand please on the source of this information?
It has been reported that their wrists had been bound, but I have not heard that Velcro was involved.

 

[dotr]

2023 fwiw..

The mystery of who killed a billionaire couple has turned siblings against each other and confounded a nation

Barry and Honey Sherman were discovered by the swimming pool at their luxury Toronto estate, and their murders have confounded detectives for over five years. Could a multi-million-dollar reward now unlock the case? WARNING: Readers might find some details in this story distressing.

www.abc.net.au

''Marks on the body suggested they had had their wrists bound with zip ties, and the pathologist concluded Honey had likely been killed in another part of the house and dragged down to the pool. ''

2025

Toronto police turned to AI in Sherman murder case. So I did too

I was skeptical, but curious if AI could tell me something that I had not already learned from endless days and nights perusing documents. Here’s what I found.

www.thestar.com

'Both had been tied at the wrist by a thin plastic tie similar to a cable strap; a similar ligature was used to strangle them. No ties were found at the scene'

 

[Jazzy5980]

I only know about what is going on with the Sherman murder cases through the media and this site. I have a theory like many other people, but it is not based on evidence or facts. The People I know who were/are connected to the Sherman family and/or Apotex are in the same position.

Thank you!

 

[INSP MORSE]

Early on, in the early days after the crimes, the coats being pulled back were in fact believed by some to be strong evidence of M/S. It was speculated Barry would have positioned his coat in that way to make it impossible or certainly very difficult for him to use his arms to escape from the belt around his neck once the belt was attached.
LE subsequently declared it a double homicide, but I suspect that there are still members of LE and other people (in addition to KW) who still believe it was a M/S.
I do not recall if the photos KD claims to have seen of the bodies ( and the drawings created by a Star illustrator thereafter) show Barry’s coat being pulled back. I am hopeful DOTR or another skilled poster here has easy access to those drawings.

Given that the police originally thought that bit since then it's come to light the pathologist found evidence that Barry's hands had been bound and the bindings had since been removed after death. That together with the fact that the likelihood of the coats being pulled down around the arms was to enable the perpetrator to get to the necks and put belts around them suggests to me in my opinion that it was not staged or even purposefully staged to look like murder suicide. Just staged to mock by placing then in positions like the statues but that's my opinion.

 

[INSP MORSE]

Thank you!

What's your theory?

 

[Clue Keeper]

@Lexiintoronto, in a case this complex, you have to connect the dots between the forensic facts, as the police won't release a full 'theory' during an active investigation. The dragging angle isn't just a guess; it's the logical conclusion drawn from physical evidence like the dusty scuff marks found on the backs of Honey’s shoes, as detailed by Kevin Donovan.
However, the key proof comes from the private autopsy by Dr. David Chiasson. Episodes 2 and 3. While Honey was found semi-seated, Chiasson’s study of post-mortem lividity showed her blood had settled as if she had been lying face-down for several hours. This confirms she died in a horizontal position elsewhere and was only moved to the pool railing much later, after the blood had already pooled. You don't need it specifically spelled out in a single link when the combined facts such as the phone in the hallway, the lividity, and the shoe scuffs clearly show she was killed in one spot and staged in another. All in my opinion.

 

[Clue Keeper]

People who knew them noted that Barry was rather frail. Honey had two knee replacement surgeries but was a pretty strong woman. So if anything, the possibility could be of Honey killing Barry. But, dragging a body downstairs and that far? Impossible.

I think neither of them could have the physical strength, and I don't understand how the theory of M/S emerged.

The M/S theory stuck early on because the house was totally secure. Since there were no broken windows and nothing was missing, the police defaulted to a domestic tragedy. This tunnel vision got worse when they saw Honey had facial bruises and Barry didn't; they just assumed he was the aggressor. On top of that, a junior pathologist found that the tiny hyoid bone in Barry’s neck wasn't broken. Based on an old-school forensic myth, the police thought an unbroken bone meant suicide rather than a violent murder. These few details were enough to make them ignore the signs of a professional setup and stick with the wrong story for weeks.

 

[Charlot123]

Charlot, I am not aware of any “traces of Velcro” on their wrists. Can you please expand please on the source of this information?
It has been reported that their wrists had been bound, but I have not heard that Velcro was involved.

No idea about Velcro. I might have seen it somewhere (it is a world-known case, after all), or it might be me reading "velcro zip-ties: in the description of many cases. ETA. People posted, "zip ties". I just realized that I never knew what zip ties were. Just never matched the name with the item. Hence, I used Velcro.

 

[fadedglitter]

@Lexiintoronto, in a case this complex, you have to connect the dots between the forensic facts, as the police won't release a full 'theory' during an active investigation. The dragging angle isn't just a guess; it's the logical conclusion drawn from physical evidence like the dusty scuff marks found on the backs of Honey’s shoes, as detailed by Kevin Donovan.
However, the key proof comes from the private autopsy by Dr. David Chiasson. Episodes 2 and 3. While Honey was found semi-seated, Chiasson’s study of post-mortem lividity showed her blood had settled as if she had been lying face-down for several hours. This confirms she died in a horizontal position elsewhere and was only moved to the pool railing much later, after the blood had already pooled. You don't need it specifically spelled out in a single link when the combined facts such as the phone in the hallway, the lividity, and the shoe scuffs clearly show she was killed in one spot and staged in another. All in my opinion.

Can you please provide your source for the way her blood had settled and the supposed confirmation that she died in a horizontal position and was lying face down for several hours? Can you please provide a source for any phone being in a hallway, any details about lividity, and shoe scuffs?

To my knowledge none of these details have been reported. Please provide the exact words that you believe contain these details. I do not see them in the episode of Donovan’s podcast you have cited.

 

[fadedglitter]

The M/S theory stuck early on because the house was totally secure. Since there were no broken windows and nothing was missing, the police defaulted to a domestic tragedy. This tunnel vision got worse when they saw Honey had facial bruises and Barry didn't; they just assumed he was the aggressor. On top of that, a junior pathologist found that the tiny hyoid bone in Barry’s neck wasn't broken. Based on an old-school forensic myth, the police thought an unbroken bone meant suicide rather than a violent murder. These few details were enough to make them ignore the signs of a professional setup and stick with the wrong story for weeks.

Much of this is factually incorrect.

The house was not at all secure. A door was unlocked and a window was open.

We do not know that “nothing was missing”. (There is a lively ongoing discussion about whether paperwork is missing.)

The pathologists did not rely on an old-school forensic myth about the hyoid bone. Dr Chaisson is the researcher who disproved that myth.

The police did not stick with any story; they had a professional obligation to investigate all of the options the pathologist investigation suggested, and eventually ruled out the two options involving suicide.

 

[fadedglitter]

No idea about Velcro. I might have seen it somewhere (it is a world-known case, after all), or it might be me reading "velcro zip-ties: in the description of many cases. ETA. People posted, "zip ties". I just realized that I never knew what zip ties were. Just never matched the name with the item. Hence, I used Velcro.

All good. This is an ambiguous detail and it is possible the thin plastic tie/cord was secured with Velcro, but at this point that would be guesswork.

Even “zip tie” is just a guess, as is “zap strap”. The ties have never been found so nobody knows what caused the marks.

The police specifically asked the trainer whether she’d seen marks on Barry’s wrists that morning, and if he’d used workout bands to strengthen his arms. He usually did, but not that day. The question suggests that the police thought it was possible the marks were caused by workout bands, and needed to investigate and rule out that possibility.

 

[dotr]

More details about the appearance of the bodies at link.
2022

The Star saw the Sherman crime-scene and autopsy photos. How could a pathologist and police call it a murder-suicide?

Photos, notes raise new questions about how investigators made their mistaken determination in the Barry and Honey Sherman case.

www.thestar.com

''In Honey’s case, and Barry’s as well, the free end of the belt is looped through the buckle and cinched around the neck, and the free end is tied tightly to the railing, keeping them from falling backwards into the pool. On the pool railing near where Honey’s belt is tied there is a small smear of blood. There is also a smear of blood on the breast of a blue vest she is wearing. The information I have seen does not say whose blood it is.
Some media reports have said that Honey’s face looked like she was the victim of a severe beating. That is not the case. There is a mark on one cheek, but it is minor. There is blood on her face, but it appears to have come from her nose as a result of the strangulation that killed her.''

''Sources say that based on an examination of the crime scene, it is most likely that the Shermans were not killed at the spot where they were found. One theory is that Honey was surprised on the main floor when she arrived home that night, and killed there and brought down to the basement swimming pool room.''

 

[Lexiintoronto]

@Lexiintoronto, in a case this complex, you have to connect the dots between the forensic facts, as the police won't release a full 'theory' during an active investigation. The dragging angle isn't just a guess; it's the logical conclusion drawn from physical evidence like the dusty scuff marks found on the backs of Honey’s shoes, as detailed by Kevin Donovan.
However, the key proof comes from the private autopsy by Dr. David Chiasson. Episodes 2 and 3. While Honey was found semi-seated, Chiasson’s study of post-mortem lividity showed her blood had settled as if she had been lying face-down for several hours. This confirms she died in a horizontal position elsewhere and was only moved to the pool railing much later, after the blood had already pooled. You don't need it specifically spelled out in a single link when the combined facts such as the phone in the hallway, the lividity, and the shoe scuffs clearly show she was killed in one spot and staged in another. All in my opinion.

I appreciate that you have a detailed theory.

But, the question was about you writing that Honey had been ‘dragged through the house’. I’ve only heard of drag marks in the pool room, which KD wrote appeared dusty. KD reported that that the back of her shoes seem to have dust marks.

The Star reported that Honey had blood on her face, but relatively little or none on the front of her clothing. The guess is that she may have been face-down after being injured —or killed—until being moved to the upright, semi-seated position she was found in. But we don’t know anything yet about lividity findings in either of the Shermans as it hasn’t been released, to my knowledge. I’d love to read it if it’s true. Can you please link Chiason’s lividity findings? The words and timestamps. Simply linking lengthy YouTube video or podcasts means we have to spend a lot of time trying to find the information.

 

[INSP MORSE]

I think that is the general concensous.

@Lexiintoronto, in a case this complex, you have to connect the dots between the forensic facts, as the police won't release a full 'theory' during an active investigation. The dragging angle isn't just a guess; it's the logical conclusion drawn from physical evidence like the dusty scuff marks found on the backs of Honey’s shoes, as detailed by Kevin Donovan.
However, the key proof comes from the private autopsy by Dr. David Chiasson. Episodes 2 and 3. While Honey was found semi-seated, Chiasson’s study of post-mortem lividity showed her blood had settled as if she had been lying face-down for several hours. This confirms she died in a horizontal position elsewhere and was only moved to the pool railing much later, after the blood had already pooled. You don't need it specifically spelled out in a single link when the combined facts such as the phone in the hallway, the lividity, and the shoe scuffs clearly show she was killed in one spot and staged in another. All in my opinion.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Am I the only one who thinks it was one person acting alone, and not a murder for hire?

No, I am in the same frame of thought as you are.

 

[INSP MORSE]

I think that is the general concensous that she / both were murdered in a different location in the house. This ties in with the fact that BS phone and papers were dropped at near entrance from the garage area, on his arrival suggesting BS was subdued and even possibly killed in that area. There was no effort to conceal this by the perpetrator (the cleaner had unwittingly picked up the papers and phone and moved them aside) which adds even more credence to my theory that the bodies were not staged as a murder suicide. But were staged to mock the shermans.

 

[INSP MORSE]

I think that is the general concensous that she / both were murdered in a different location in the house. This ties in with the fact that BS phone and papers were dropped at near entrance from the garage area, on his arrival suggesting BS was subdued and even possibly killed in that area. There was no effort to conceal this by the perpetrator (the cleaner had unwittingly picked up the papers and phone and moved them aside) which adds even more credence to my theory that the bodies were not staged as a murder suicide. But were staged to mock the shermans.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

My feeling is that despite it being a homicide, it meant something to the killer that Barry looked peaceful and the death as being gentle, imo. Less so with Honey.

From KD’s documentary: The thin ligature was used to kill them, the belts simply kept them in position. FBI profiler: that was done as a shock factor for whoever walks in and finds them. Pathologist: the killer took delight in setting the scene.

That differs from my impression. Daughter Alexandra said she shut down after the murders. Maybe that’s part of what the killer hoped—that the survivors would be disabled for a period of time. Feeling powerless in some ways.

Interesting, wonder who the killer expected to find the bodies, if it was for that persons shock value. It could be they knew the body staging would be shown to everyone via media or that family would be aware

Otherwise who was expected in the home, basement, pool area specifically, IMO that is hidden out of the way space that no one was using and only real estate showings would have any expectation to go in that area. Was that who the shock value was for, the real estate agent or the interested potential buyers?

Unless maintenance or cleaning of this area was scheduled for Thursday or Friday.

Just had a memory recall, did we ever get more intel on the virtual showing earlier that week or month, did they go into the pool area for part of that tour?

 

[INSP MORSE]

Donovan initially reported that Barry’s coat was pulled down, immobilizing his arms. He has since gotten a better look at the crime scene photos and has changed his interpretation. He noticed that Barry’s back is against the railing support and his coat is bunched up because of the way he’s positioned.

I’m not sure the “coat pulled down” detail survives scrutiny if the only person who claimed this happened is now saying otherwise.

That's interesting. To me it suggests that barry was strangled elswhere then brought down to the pool area and when placed in position the perpetrator used the vertical part of the railing to support Barry's back/body whilst they then placed the belt around the neck to pose the body.

 

[INSP MORSE]

The M/S theory stuck early on because the house was totally secure. Since there were no broken windows and nothing was missing, the police defaulted to a domestic tragedy. This tunnel vision got worse when they saw Honey had facial bruises and Barry didn't; they just assumed he was the aggressor. On top of that, a junior pathologist found that the tiny hyoid bone in Barry’s neck wasn't broken. Based on an old-school forensic myth, the police thought an unbroken bone meant suicide rather than a violent murder. These few details were enough to make them ignore the signs of a professional setup and stick with the wrong story for weeks.

Well what really didn't help is the fact that the senior investigator didn't even bother attending the scene. In the UK we call this a schoolboy error. In this case a schoolgirl error.