CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough Ont, 19 June 1990 #1

[eyesonly]

"""the window is open and she sees an orange and blue striped cloth on the drivers seat"""

so it wasn't a blanket, it was a cloth on the seat. i'm not sure if it was still there, but a cloth is not going to cover a body.

 

[eyesonly]

CB has said that the "Andre" that was mentioned in her sisters diary was a friend of her sister's that used to like bicycling through the wooded valley where EB was killed.

Andre wasn't a "friend" so to speak. EB met him while jogging and her sister CB got the impression he was into drugs. Andre has never been found or has never come forward as far as anyone knows. unless the detectives found him and suppressed another statement.

BTW i found out how to quote now, duh me, lol.

 

[eyesonly]

Without a body the forensics are obviously tricky to prove. Some would say impossible. Pretty much like the chance of getting a conviction.
The only blood evidence is the blood in her car and on the door sill plus the brain matter. None other was found. Whether she was put in the car immediately or after a few hours hidden in the bush, the forensic theory was that she did take some time to die.

forensics aren't tricky to prove without a body. you don't need a body to tell you what the blood is telling you. the blood is saying that she wasn't killed
in the valley bushes and left there for two or more hours, because there wouldn't have been the amount of blood found in the car and the color and consistency. also there was no decomposing body transferred in the car due to absence of odor and bugs.
and there is no evidence, forensic or otherwise that says how long it took her to die. i would imagine it was fairly quick thats jmo

what the blood tells us is that she was killed or mortally wounded outside the car, immediately put into the car and either transported somewhere, or left there for an amount of time consistent with transporting her somewhere, and removed from her car before decomposing odors set in and decomposing
bugs set in.
jmo

 

[eyesonly]

Of all the names floated:

RW - not in the province
PB - tenuous connection at best and too many stretches of circumstance
PM - working that night
MB - means (yes), motive (?), opportunity (?). I don't believe he would hide his sister's body.
EG - means (yes), motive (?), opportunity (yes) I don't know what the motive would be (jealousy?) or if he had the opportunity to move the body
RB - means (yes), motive (yes), opportunity (yes) Crown Attorney believed RB slipped out of his house that night and moved the body
/QUOTE]

RW; out of province, yes
PM; initials have slipped my mind as to who that is
MB; the brother
means-yes, motive-yes, for accidental death imo (EB had recently sent his gf a letter telling her to break up with him because of his abuse of her. "don't get used to abuse, you will never know anything else" EB wrties her) opportunity-yes, has no alibi for the night, he lied on the stand about being at class, says he stayed the night at his gf's place but she doesn't actually remember that. Mr. Bain called the gf's house several times to make sure they knew MB stayed at their place all night. he had a quick temper, and is a huge narcisist.
EG#1, RB's friend. nothing ever was mentioned in any way that this person was a suspect. this person is a theory of snively's, and will keep an open mind
to it.
RB; means-no, his times are all accounted for, motive-possibly, but he never knew for sure if she was seeing other people, EB got quite upset because everytime she thought she would have made him angry he only became more loving. he never abused her, in fact quite the opposite. he was never violent with her, in fact i don't know if anyone in his life ever saw him violent.
opportunity-no, his times are all accounted,

PB; i never thought he was involved and to some degree still don't. however everything about what happened and the sightings makes this a PB 101 scenario. The blond guys spotted with her on several occasions. the secret meetings. one of his ex gf's told police how he drove her to a remote area behind a factory, took her out of the car and almost beat her to death. EB's passenger seat was fully reclined, which PB did with one of the girls in st. catherines.
if you take any stock in the 3r and 401 sighting, the violence and hitting was typical PB as we now know, the 401 wtiness when he saw her suddenly disappear, driver could have had her held back down on the fully reclined seat.
PB took a gf down in the valley near the principals house thingy to fool around with, almost same area as RB said he was with EB that sunday night making love. RB found a book in EB's room after author was Andrew Carnegie, who PB was really into for motivational self help stuff. Could the Andre that was into drugs who never came forward maybe be PB using a false name. if it was PB and he was there tuesday night with EB and RB came by and PB realized EB had a boyfriend, that would absolutely set him off into a violent rage, we know that as a fact now.

but still not convinced PB was responsible, even though everything fits, and no more scarborough rapes occurred after EB's disappearance.

 

[eyesonly]

the crown conceding at the appeal;

one of the biggest reasons the crown had to concede at the appeal was this. i have read this on the internet so it is not inside information. i had it bookmarked long time ago but have changed computers few times and have lost it.

Mr. Bain prior to the appeal, went into the crown attorney's office and told him that he would say whatever he wanted him to say to keep RB
locked up. the crown attorney immediately informed the defense counsel of this incident due the impropriety of it.

What this tells me is that if mr. bain was that confident to walk into a crown att. office and basically offer to lie on the stand for them if they wanted him to,
is that this is pretty much what happened in the original trial with the detectives and original crown att, as mr. bain thought this new crown att would act in
the same manner. jmo

and i'm not speaking badly of mr. bain here, if i truely thought that someone killed my daughter, i'm sure that i would have to be held back from killing the sob myself, so lying on the stand or altering my story somewhat to lock him away and keep him away, i cannot say for sure that i wouldn't do that. jmo

 

[Woodland]

A rock conjures up an outdoor occurrence for me. Here's a nasty fellow that has never been caught - makes me want to change my user name.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...n-Ontario-1992-1995&highlight=Woodland+Rapist

The WL Rapist crimes are '92 - '93 against children - Waterloo Region and Oakville. No one knows who this person is, so no one can say what he may have been doing in 1990. Olson taught us a victim is a victim - they don't necessarily need a 'type'. Jmo.

 

[Woodland]

the crown conceding at the appeal;


Mr. Bain prior to the appeal, went into the crown attorney's office and told him that he would say whatever he wanted him to say to keep RB
locked up. the crown attorney immediately informed the defense counsel of this incident due the impropriety of it.

RSBM - I can conjure up another reason based on info in post #464.

 

[Snively]

The real violent sexual assaults in the Scarborough area in the days very close to the 19th, and there were about 5, were considered to have been committed by PM. When he was about to be turned in by a family member he fled the country back to his native Ireland where a sexual assault baring the hallmarks of his Scarborough attacks occurred within weeks of his arrival to his hometown. He was described as 56, muscular, with copper coloured hair and a mustache. The police confirmed PM was working the night of the 19th. The police always believed there were two rapists in the area at the time (PB and PM) but neither had killed at this point and both had attacked using knives and/or strangulation.

RB at two points (and yes it may be for only 15 or 20 minutes, but it's also possibly as long as 30 minutes) was alone in his car and by his own admission in the same park where Liz's car was. I'll still contend that 15 minutes is enough time to hit somebody with a rock and put a body in a car and change from shorts and a t-shirt, especially if the car is close by. Bold to put a body in when it's light out but not when it's dark. He certainly suspected something was going on and in Liz's own words she felt he was following her and although RB's friends tried to say they didn't know exactly what a Dear John letter was, they did admit that RB had received a letter from Liz and it wasn't a nice one.

The one big thing I don't like about it being MB is I don't believe he would hide his sisters body all these years and while he could have done it by accident I don't believe he would kill her on purpose. If it was an accident, he would have not hid her body.

For me that brings it back to either RB (3 for 3 on means, motive, opportunity) and/or EG#1 (but I don't know what his motive would be, but he definitely was at the campus that night, he tried to get a witness to change testimony then said he forgot to tell police he had seen RB in the gym).

 

[Woodland]

With all due respect Snively, not seeing how you are nailing down RB had the means that night. It's not enough in my mind to say he x number of minutes to do something. It worked for LE and the Crown - for a while. With no hypothesis on how he could have carried this out - they may end up paying him $13 mil.

EB's skull was opened with a rock (or whatever), exposing and spilling brain matter. Did the spill just happen in the car? Imo, there had to be remnants of that act somewhere in the park. If you can post that find by searchers - I will be most interested.

Would also find it helpful if you could walk us through your scenario - he was meeting EB at this spot? He stumbled across her at this spot? He lured her into the woods - with a change of clothes? He came out of the woods needing a change of clothes? He was not panicked and made sure he picked up every last little item so as not to leave evidence behind?

He got EB into her own car - then? Now he has 2 vehicles to contend with - what could he have done and in which order did he deal with these issues? Did he work-out? Did he play volleyball? Was he at EB's classroom at 9:00 pm? Did he go to EB's home and speak with her mom?

Then? He's got a body to deal with - why is he running all over campus and to EB's house? Have not seen anyone say he seemed strung out, hyper etc. Just that he changed his clothes.

Fwiw, I'm not interested in RB's actions that evening unless I can see it was possible that he committed this crime. Then they might mean something in my mind - at the moment they don't. Jmo.

Can't wait to read the movements of the Bain family that night and in the days that followed. Jmo.

 

[kemo]

From what I can tell, the critical evidence that establishes RB's probable innocence (or at least totally blows out the theory of the crime) is the "mutual sighting" of RB and the "olive-skinned" ex boyfriend of EB at the class EB should have been leaving at around 9:00. Withholding that information from the defense was an act of Legal malfeasance that should be critical evidence to RB's lawsuit.

The "mutual sighting " of the two people who didn't know each other but knew who each other was clearly establishes that RB was there at the classroom around 9:00. This extends RB's account of his whereabouts that night but it is more important than that, it establishes that RB did not know where EB was at 9:00 (and certainly assumed she was alive).

There are only two reasons RB would be waiting for EB's class to get out. He was either setting up an alibi for himself or he was waiting for her.

I've never killed anyone and I've never had to set up an alibi but understand the concept: someone has to see you there, remember you were there and then report it to the police, (like what happened in the gym). RB did nothing to draw attention to himself. He knew a friend of EB was in that class but he didn't approach her (he did call her latter). He wasn't setting up an alibi, he was looking for EB. Any juror would see that.

If RB was looking for EB at 9:00, he didn't know where she was and he certainly hadn't killed her by then. This blows away the Crown's theory of the case, which was that RB killed EB around 7:00. RB's whereabouts are pretty well verified until after 10:30 yet EB seems to have vanished before 7:00 when she missed her class. Jurors would agree that whatever happened to EB happened before 7:00 and RB had nothing to do with it.

 

[Snively]

RB was looking for Liz that night and at three different times (6:45, 9:20 and just after 10:30) was in the same parking lot where her car was and he was driving his own car each time. There is a clear 15-20 minute window, at least, in all three circumstances.

It was no secret that Liz did try to hide from him on occasion because she didn't want to see him. How about he did see her duck back into the woods and follows her.

While in the woods she freaks because he's followed her and she finally does tell him she's breaking up with him. He becomes enraged and either pushes her and she hits her head on a rock or he picks up a rock and hits her. Forensics does make it sound like she bled out over time. Maybe most of the blood was only on the rock.

Now he has a body to deal with. If it's the earlier time it's light out and he has to take a chance to carry a body back to her car. But he did just kill somebody, so he has to take the chance. If it was the later time, it wouldn't be so difficult or risky to move a body. The body is carried then dragged into her car. I don't know the content of RB's car but the two were certainly known to use blankets in the park so I'd bet he had a blanket in his car or a towel he was using at the gym. His car wasn't seized and searched until the 25th so who knows if he had a box of garbage bags in there even. He puts the rock in the car to be disposed of with the body or tosses it in the creek. The testimony of the witness who was walking her dog and saw Liz's car in the parking lot says she saw a "rust and blue coloured blanket on the passenger seat." Whether it was a cloth or a blanket either could be big enough to cover a body. For all we know, even if it was a cloth, it could be a table cloth. 2 blankets were recovered from the trunk, but this never was which was one of the key details of MMV's testimony. She saw it, but the police never found it.

Since he had been coming and going to the gym he would have his gym bag with him. Take off what he's wearing and change right there and put his bloody clothes (if they were even bloody) in his gym bag or a plastic shopping bag. They did eventually track down his multi coloured shorts but did the police ever even look for the lycra bicycle shorts he had also been seen in? He leaves her car there and goes back to the gym and if it's the later time he is seen sitting in the bleachers by the volleyball court wearing his jeans, crew neck sweater and running shoes so he wouldn't even need to bring his gym bag back inside.

There isn't as much running around as you think. I do know an unofficial test was run to see how long it would take and it was completed in under 18 minutes including the 3 minute drive back to the campus.

At 10:30 he leaves the gym and goes home with her car with her body in it still at the park. Later that night after his parents go to bed he sneaks out and goes back to the park, leaves his car and takes her car with the body in it and disposes of the body and the rock.

Don't forget that she was reported missing the next morning but the police are not actively searching at this point. There were not any real organized search parties until after her car was found on the 22nd at 2:00PM and then not until the following day. A small group of family and friends had been out looking for her between the 20th and 22nd but it was definitely not an organized search and certainly not looking for forensics.

Yes I do believe he was outside her classroom and at 9:15 at the Bains speaking to her mother, but right after that he went back to the car park looking for her and it is only his word he didn't see her car. What if he was lying and actually did see her car and find her?

As for whether he appeared stressed, there was lot's of testimony that he certainly seemed concerned with it all put down to him looking for his girlfriend.

The 3r sighting and the 401 sighting (if accurate) would eliminate the 6:45PM time. I think you could also eliminate it because it does seem more likely a body would be moved when it was dark and there were few if any people around. The 9:20PM time seems more likely.

Scenario 2

EG#1 did try to get KN to change his testimony of the time he saw RB at the gym to a later time of 7:15. What if EG#1 was not just doing this to improve an alibi for RB but also to get an alibi for himself? Was EG#1 the blonde guy who had been seen with Liz, weeks prior? Was he seeing Liz on the side and actually the guy that RB suspected? Was he the guy driving her car that night that was seen at 3r and on the 401 at 8:30? Don't forget that EG#1 forgot to tell the police he saw RB sitting in the bleachers about 9:10PM. Was EG#1 in fact trying to provide his own alibi since he wasn't actually there himself at this time? After the 401 did they head back to get his car and at 9:20PM were they spotted by RB. Was RB already there waiting when the pulled up and Liz and EG#1 were caught together and that's when a fight or an argument broke out and either on purpose or by accident Liz was hit and killed? Now you have two people to move a body and it's after dark. Definitely easier than one person doing it. EG#1 worked at the campus and apparently intended to go to the gym at some point, which means both he and RB could have had their gym bags in their cars with them. RB could get changed in the woods and it does seem likely EG#1 had his car parked at the campus. If he was meeting her in secret he wouldn't want to leave his car parked right beside hers in the small parking area and she probably wouldn't want to pick him up outside the campus. It's not a long walk from the campus to the parking area or she could have picked him up as he was walking down the road to the parking area. RB gives EG#1 a ride back to his car where EG#1 can change quickly near the campus and they both go inside to play volleyball until 10:30 when they both have to leave. Did RB then sneak out that night and dispose of her body or did EG#1 leave straight from the campus and do it when RB dropped him off as he drove past the parking area the 3rd time supposedly looking for her car? Or did EG#1 come back later that night himself to dispose of the body? Did RB follow EG#1 to 3r Auto Body after 10:30 so EG#1 could leave his car parked there and then bring EG#1 back to Liz's car and RB went home and then EG#1 drove Liz's car to dispose of the body then brought it back to 3r where he exchanged parking places with his own car and then go home? RB would need the alibi more since the police are most likely to look at family members and then the boyfriend. Even the range Liz's car was driven was estimated by, it seems, measuring the remaining fuel in her car and the Lake Scugog idea was based, initially it seems that PM had a cottage or something in the area, then when RB was made the prime suspect it was because he had worked at a summer camp (?) or had knowledge of the area at least. Plus DD seeing the car in the area and the owner of Haugen's BBQ in Manchester just outside Port Perry. DD claimed to see the car on the 22nd, but his testimony was certainly questioned. JE at Haugen's was 80% sure he saw her car at 5:30AM to 6:30AM on the morning of the 20th. Did RB or EG#1 have a jerry can in their car they used to top up the fuel to confuse the police? Many people do carry a jerry can in their car. Was EG#1 not taking her body to Lake Scugog but to Muskoka Woods where he does have knowledge of the area?

EG#1 seems to be linked with Muskoka Woods but I'd like to know if he worked there or just visited. It is interesting that Muskoka Woods head office is in Scarborough near Warden and Steeles and the resort would be if you are coming from Scarborough, most likely straight north up Hwy. 12 to Hwy. 11. Hwy. 12 would take you right back to Haugen's BBQ just south of Hwy. 7A and only about a 45 minute drive from 3r Auto Body.

Possibly this could also mean that RB did have nothing at all to do with the murder and disposing of the body and it was EG#1 all by himself.

I do wonder if the police had checked on EG#1 or were they entirely fixated on RB? EG#1's own testimony puts him at the campus that night. Did he leave at any time? It does seem likely he knew Liz since he did work with RB but did he have anything else to do with her?

 

[eyesonly]

From what I can tell, the critical evidence that establishes RB's probable innocence (or at least totally blows out the theory of the crime) is the "mutual sighting" of RB and the "olive-skinned" ex boyfriend of EB at the class EB should have been leaving at around 9:00. Withholding that information from the defense was an act of Legal malfeasance that should be critical evidence to RB's lawsuit.

kemo;
the "olive-skinned" person waiting outside EB's class at 9pm was NOT the ex-boyfriend. RB just wondered if it was because he looked similar to EB's description of him.
but the police did find the guy and take his statement and he confirmed seeing RB up on the second level.

 

[eyesonly]

RB was looking for Liz that night and at three different times (6:45, 9:20 and just after 10:30) was in the same parking lot where her car was and he was driving his own car each time. There is a clear 15-20 minute window, at least, in all three circumstances.

Yes I do believe he was outside her classroom and at 9:15 at the Bains speaking to her mother, but right after that he went back to the car park looking for her and it is only his word he didn't see her car. What if he was lying and actually did see her car and find her?

snively;
RB did NOT go to the valley lot to look for her car AFTER 915pm from the Bain house. I have stated a few times that RB went to the valley lot area after he left EB's class and BEFORE he went to the bains.
then above i related RB's account of going to the campus from the bain house after he talked to mrs. bain, and all the things he did before 10pm.
that would take up all his time from 920pm - 10pm.

 

[Woodland]

It won't be a financial hardship to pay RB the $13 mil he's looking for - all the Ontario Attorney General has to do is, step up the drug/organized crime raids and seize about a dozen houses, a couple of dozen vehicles and some nice furniture. There should even be a little left over for the salaries involved.

Hope he gets it.

 

[eyesonly]

Liz's youngest brothers' initials are PB, the same initials as a possible suspect listed above PB (paul bernardo). i think it is ok for us to just use
bernardos' name from now on so we don't get the two confused.

What would your reaction be to the following situation;

On friday june 22, 1990 liz's younest brother PB is driving down like a block or so west of morrish rd, gets to the most south point where it ends at kingston rd, (not old kingston rd) and sees his brother MB's gf coming across kingston rd on foot on her way to their house. He picks her up, and continues in like a U shape manner which comes onto morrish rd, heading north from kingston rd.
He suddenly stops the car. "holy ......., there's her car" ( not verbatim).

What would you do at that point, as her youngest brother, looking for his missing sister for the last 2+days.

 

[Snively]

Re: Post #473

I found a report of the testimony that shows RB went to the park AFTER he went to the Bains. Bains (9:15) and the park (9:20).

 

[Woodland]

I admire your tenacity Snively - so why did RB leave EB in her car (at whatever point) in the parking lot on Tuesday night, go home, then return in the wee hours of Wednesday am to finally move her and her vehicle? Why did he even leave EB's car after he supposedly put her in it and 1. appear at her class when it ended, 2. go to the Bain residence and 3. play volleyball? Alternatively, according to you, he may have even put her in her car and worked out before the above 1, 2 and 3.

We are talking about a fairly well educated man - not a drug crazed nut case.

Fwiw, I'm going to move on to family members until I see a smoking gun for RB.

 

[Woodland]

Liz's youngest brothers' initials are PB, the same initials as a possible suspect listed above PB (paul bernardo). i think it is ok for us to just use
bernardos' name from now on so we don't get the two confused.

What would your reaction be to the following situation;

On friday june 22, 1990 liz's younest brother PB is driving down like a block or so west of morrish rd, gets to the most south point where it ends at kingston rd, (not old kingston rd) and sees his brother MB's gf coming across kingston rd on foot on her way to their house. He picks her up, and continues in like a U shape manner which comes onto morrish rd, heading north from kingston rd.
He suddenly stops the car. "holy ......., there's her car" ( not verbatim).

What would you do at that point, as her youngest brother, looking for his missing sister for the last 2+days.

Good way to go about this eyesonly - I like it since I have absolutely no info on what happened!

I would run up to the car and look inside to ensure it was my sisters car. Upon not seeing her, I would call my mom first but take it no cell phone available then. So would run into 3R office (it was open?) and call my mom. Mom would likely come running to the location and LE would be called soon after.

I would be super hyper and have all kinds of scenarios running through my head to the point that I would be unable to think clearly. I would want some serious help!

So, what happened?

 

[eyesonly]

The older brothers (mb's) gf did exactly as you stated woodland. Took off right out of the car
ran right to liz's car hyper and looking to see if Liz was there.
The younger brother driving (PB) stayed in the car and shouted from his open window for
her to make sure she doesn't touch the car. He never got out of his car.

 

[eyesonly]

Re: Post #473

I found a report of the testimony that shows RB went to the park AFTER he went to the Bains. Bains (9:15) and the park (9:20).[/QUOTE/]

What report and who's testimony. Was it from a news article. Who's testimony,
because no one saw RB to testify at what time he went other than RB himself.