Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #18

[Zella]

Thanks for that, a new photo I didn't see before! I was reading through the threads, it doesn't seem like this was sent to the media, maybe that's why the original was deleted? Good thing other people grabbed it! I can't tell if he has something in his hand, it does looklike the gas tank hatch has been popped open for filling, though.

Yeah I've only ever seen it here.

And I noticed that about the gas tank. Looks like he's standing there, maybe talking to Bryer, who I assume is in the passenger seat, while he fills up.

 

[Schmoosh]

Note sure why folks are ignoring the fact that the site C Dam, one of the biggest projects going in BC right now, is right on the route B and K took. If you were looking for work, it seems to me that stopping in Fort St John is a no brainer. Why is everybody still mystified regarding why they took the route they did? I don't get it.

Perhaps because
a. they didn't tell anyone that was their intention, and
b. because they didn't have the qualifications even if they wanted a job there?

Jobs with Site C | Site C

 

[sandbar]

This cases are getting me worried, so out of curiosity I took a quick look and without any effort at all immediately found three studies that say there’s no correlation between violent video games and aggression. Two I ignored, since I’ve never heard of the universities those studies are associated with - but one was from Oxford Internet Institute - associated with Oxford University - and that one I took a look at, because Oxford. It’s been many a long decade since I studied statistics, so I skimmed through the methodology section and I can’t say much about it one way or another, my brain is has turned to mush. But from what I read, the researchers did seem to go into that study with a fairly strong pro-video game bias, imo. Nonetheless: Oxford. Can’t deny the validity of that.

Then there’s the over 400 studies mentioned by the American Academy of Pediatrics that demonstrate a significant link between exposure to violent media and aggressive behaviour and thoughts. I didn’t read them and can’t comment on their methodology/validity at all.

I did read the American Psychological Association’s Resolution on Violent Video Games and to quote: “WHEREAS scientific research has demonstrated an association between violent video game use and both increases in aggressive behavior, aggressive affect, aggressive cognitions and decreases in prosocial behavior, empathy, and moral engagement” ….

And, more relevant to this discussion: “WHEREAS many factors are known to be risk factors for increased aggressive behavior, aggressive cognition and aggressive affect, and reduced prosocial behavior, empathy and moral engagement, and violent video game use is one such risk factor” (my bold)

I also read the American Academy of Pediatrics Guideline on Media Violence which asserts more or less the same thing and, interestingly, discusses why people tend to deny any correlation.

So do violent video games contribute to aggressive behaviour or is there no correlation? There are studies that support both hypotheses, which is super-duper common in such a soft science as psychology. You can find studies to support anything at all really. I remember, back in the day when I was a smoker, finding a study from UGA that demonstrated that nicotine improves cognitive function. I had that study pretty much memorized because it supported my smoking addiction; in between puffing and hacking I could almost quote that study verbatim.

IMO, studies can be manipulated - and they sure can be used to manipulate us.

But statistical correlation between violent video games and aggression or not, at this point I think it’s important to try (and I am trying) to keep an open mind either way regarding this issue. And I think it’s even more important to apply that rarest of things: a little common sense.


MOO (and sorry for the essay)

I like your essay, and I've been struggling along the same lines. I know the studies and results, and as you say all good research is done by forming a hypothesis and trying to prove yourself wrong. NOT to prove yourself right.

I'm into that common sense stuff you speak of and here's where I land:

How can we, on the hand, say to kids, "practice your 3-point shot/knitting/nine-times-tables/whatever, learn from your mistakes, and you'll get good at it." And think that practising for hours and days and years in a high-res, player initiated violent video game has zero effect on a developing brain? A WSer posted a great article a few pages, back called something like "Your Kid's Brain on Video Games". And it talks about the human neuro-chemical reaction that plays out during the fight, flight or freeze response that is triggered by the live or die kind of ethos of violent video games present.

I think an individual's ability to metabolize cortisol plays a huge role in determining why the VAST majority of gamers do not go on murderous rampages and some do.
(from wikipedia):

"Sleep, stress, and mood
Sustained stress can lead to high levels of circulating cortisol, which can create an allostatic load.[39] An allostatic load can lead to various physical modifications in the body's regulatory networks.[39] Changed patterns of serum cortisol levels have been observed in connection with abnormal ACTH levels[citation needed], mood disorders(such as major depressive disorder), anxiety disorders, psychological stress, and physiological stressors such as hypoglycemia, illness, fever, trauma, surgery, fear, pain, physical exertion, or temperature extremes. Cortisol levels may also differ for individuals with autism or Asperger's syndrome.[40] Also, significant individual variation is seen, although a given person tends to have consistent rhythms"

 

[FactFinder3000]

Perhaps because
a. they didn't tell anyone that was their intention, and
b. because they didn't have the qualifications even if they wanted a job there?

Jobs with Site C | Site C

But that's where they went and they don't have qualifications anywhere.

 

[Schmoosh]

But that's where they went and they don't have qualifications anywhere.

Sorry, I've missed your train of thought here. Could you expand on it? If I recall several weeks ago, Site C was discussed (but I wasn't really paying attention)

 

[sandbar]

@Shlock Homes and @Jan424: here's a post with both pics. I can't see what is in his hand, but I see people hold phones like that all the time. I can't think he would hold keys or anything else that way.

Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #17

It DOES look like he's typing with his thumbs to me!

 

[sandbar]

dbm

 

[sandbar]

Why is everybody still mystified regarding why they took the route they did? I don't get it.

To know where K&B were and when.
To know where LD was and when.
To know where C&L were and when.

 

[JoshuaTree]

Assuming that KM and BS had been up in Whitehorse, they would have been traveling in the opposite direction to LF and CD (who's van was on the northbound side). But there isn't much light, so unless LF & CD had some lights on around their vehicle, it would have been hard to spot them from far away. KM & BS would have had to do a u-turn on that highway to check them out. The police haven't said anything of that nature. They haven't said anything about what actually ties KM & BS to their murders, other than the fact they were in the area, like probably hundreds of other people.

BUT ....... Kam and Bryer left Port Alberni om July 12. (
Northern B.C. homicides and manhunt: A timeline )

So IF they took the route (attached pic), then they could have reached Liard Springs (or Fort Nelson?) on July 13 or 14.

Lucas and Chynna left Hudson's Hope on July 13. (
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...-centre-of-2-northern-b-c-mysteries-1.5221041

) Hudson's Hope to Liard Springs is 8.5 hrs. Easily done in 1 day, but I'm speculating they made many stops along that drive (or were dealing with mechanical issues all along) as they were not in Fort Nelson (which is over 4 hrs from Hudson's Hope and 4 hrs to Liard springs) on July 14 ( https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...ead-british-columbia-alaska-highway-1.5220377 )

Lucas and Chynna were murdered somewhere between the night of July 14 and early pre-dawn hours of July 15.

Prof. Dyck's body was discovered on July 19. Thus giving Kam and Byer 4 days to travel to Whitehorse (7+ hrs), arriving same day, July 15 (the same day Lucas and Chynna were murdered).

Kam and Bryer were spotted in Jade City on July 18, ( https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...g-persons-lucas-fowler-chynna-deese-1.5221657 ) giving them 2 days July 15 – 17, Mon - Wed) to “look for work” in Whitehorse (and subsequently reporting to Bryer's G-ma that it wasn't working out?). So leaving Whitehorse July 17 towards Jade City. (Whitehorse to Jade City is 6'ish hrs) , thus the siting on July 18.

Jade City to Dease Lake is 1.5 hrs, so they hung out somewhere between then and Prof. Dyck's body being discovered on July 19.

So basically what I am getting at is they could have murdered Lucas and Chynna before they made it into the Yukon and then murdered Prof. Dyck on their way back in B.C. IMO/MOO (shrugging shoulders )

 

[NJSleuth91]

I like your essay, and I've been struggling along the same lines. I know the studies and results, and as you say all good research is done by forming a hypothesis and trying to prove yourself wrong. NOT to prove yourself right.

I'm into that common sense stuff you speak of and here's where I land:

How can we, on the hand, say to kids, "practice your 3-point shot/knitting/nine-times-tables/whatever, learn from your mistakes, and you'll get good at it." And think that practising for hours and days and years in a high-res, player initiated violent video game has zero effect on a developing brain? A WSer posted a great article a few pages, back called something like "Your Kid's Brain on Video Games". And it talks about the human neuro-chemical reaction that plays out during the fight, flight or freeze response that is triggered by the live or die kind of ethos of violent video games present.

I think an individual's ability to metabolize cortisol plays a huge role in determining why the VAST majority of gamers don not go on murderous rampages and some do.
(from wikipedia):

"Sleep, stress, and mood
Sustained stress can lead to high levels of circulating cortisol, which can create an allostatic load.[39] An allostatic load can lead to various physical modifications in the body's regulatory networks.[39] Changed patterns of serum cortisol levels have been observed in connection with abnormal ACTH levels[citation needed], mood disorders(such as major depressive disorder), anxiety disorders, psychological stress, and physiological stressors such as hypoglycemia, illness, fever, trauma, surgery, fear, pain, physical exertion, or temperature extremes. Cortisol levels may also differ for individuals with autism or Asperger's syndrome.[40] Also, significant individual variation is seen, although a given person tends to have consistent rhythms"

Exactly...and what are two things that make someone terrible at metabolizing cortisol? Growing up in an unstable, dysfunctional, and violent environment, and also likely having a genetic predisposition to mental illness.

And there was a study posted here a while ago that said teenagers who commit murder either during the course of a robbery, or for no apparent reason, often have a psychological profile that includes an inability to cope with stress.

 

[Jan424]

Thank you! I discover all sorts of interesting things about this case when I'm supposed to be doing other things, like working.

 

[Zella]

It DOES look like he's typing with his thumbs to me!

Yeah it makes me think Kam at least kept his phone awhile. I'm wondering if he kept his phone off but connected at stores and gas stations to see if there was any reporting about them. MOO

<modsnip>

 

[JoshuaTree]

Are you talking about going up to the Sundance Camp area? Maybe they were searching for camp, and then they found Sundance near Gillam and were going to check it out? But that would mean they were accessing the internet, and the police haven't said anything about their phone use during the time they were reported missing.

Sorry, no.
My original post was about their original choice of route to Whitehorse.

 

[JoshuaTree]

I'm one of those that has traveled the route up to Whitehorse but in the reverse of these guys. We drove up through Dease Lake and came home through the Fort Nelson route. Our only reason was that we didn't want to drive the same route there and back. We'd get to see more of the province by doing the circle route.

I certainly have nothing to back this up other than talking to other friends who have done the trip to Whitehorse over the years but they all did the circle route too. I think from my experience, it's pretty common. It may not come up as the first route on mapquest or other sites but if you glanced at a map before leaving, it would seem the obvious choice for someone on vacation to see northern B.C.

JMO

 

[JoshuaTree]

@ Iwondertoo

Thank you so much for your input!

ETA: I tried including your quote, but it didn't work for some reason

 

[Zella]

Dang, guess my eyes are not as good as yours! I can’t tell if it’s a phone.... is he looking down or to the right towards the open door? If he checked the internet here and there, then it would have pinged and tracked their locations, no? I’ll say I do believe the phone they used to record their last message was Kam’s. But I am gonna keep looking at this pic. Thank you for finding it!

Yeah I can't tell for sure it is a phone. I just can't think of what else he would be holding that way.

To me, in the first pic, he seems to be looking in the distance, not back at the car or at a phone. But in the second one, it looks to me like his head is turned around looking into the car, so my theory is he is talking to Bryer. It almost looks to me like he is answering a question or literally just turned around to tell Bryer something since he is still holding what looks to be a phone. I never saw pics of Bryer from Fairview, so I assume he stayed in the car.

All MOO.

 

[Grouper]

Hello — I’m the one who posted the Fairview gas station photo. I understand why it was deleted now — I didn’t attach a “credible” source link for the photo.

I found the photo in a Facebook group that I’m a a part of on the case, and I traced the photo back to a twitter post made by a resident of Fort McMurry, who saw it posted at Abasand Esso.

I’d be happy to share it again, if anyone is interested in seeing it, with a link to the twitter post. I just don’t know if it is allowed to be posted? Some guidance would be appreciated as I’m fairly new here and more a lurker than anything

 

[FactFinder3000]

It was reported that they initially kept in touch on their trip. It appears Bryer's phone didn't have a data plan, since he never received the text messages his father sent. That means that Kam's phone would have had to have been used. It makes sense that he would be the one with the data plan, coming from the more affluent family.

 

[Zella]

Hello — I’m the one who posted the Fairview gas station photo. I understand why it was deleted now — I didn’t attach a “credible” source link for the photo.

I found the photo in a Facebook group that I’m a a part of on the case, and I traced the photo back to a twitter post made by a resident of Fort McMurry, who saw it posted at Abasand Esso.

I’d be happy to share it again, if anyone is interested in seeing it, with a link to the twitter post. I just don’t know if it is allowed to be posted? Some guidance would be appreciated as I’m fairly new here and more a lurker than anything

Hey, Grouper, check with the mods to be on the safe side, but I think the rule is law enforcement or mainstream media for social media links.

 

[sandbar]

This is a link to a map that otto (a poster here) drew up many, many days ago when we were hashing out their route. It makes the most sense to me. Why KM and BS chose that route though, I have no idea.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/upload_2019-8-6_19-31-40-png.197239/

@otto's maps rock.

Ahh, this brings back memories...
I haven't seen seen it for a while and what pops out at me now is, where were K&B on the 16th and 17th?