Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #19

[Zella]

“The four-volume, 1,500 page report

That's interesting--thank you!

SBM I know it is probably a pipe dream to hope for something that thorough on this case ever (or anytime in the near future), but I would read every page of it if it existed.

As is, I suspect whatever is released about this case in the form of a report is probably going to be more like the 40-ish page one released about the Toronto shooting that other people have referenced--detailed but not massive.

Compiling a 1,000+ page report on anything is a huge undertaking and probably isn't the norm if it isn't the result of a formal inquiry?

 

[MistyWaters]

Who says they had no use of data/smartphone or computer?

Which is why I think a personal appeal attempted by a family member either by cellphone message or written words online would be far more effective if made privately in the hopes it might be read or heard by either or both at some point. Just because it wasn’t broadcast by the media doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Any televised plea is not going to be front page news for more than a day or two.

 

[Kubirai]

Can they do this if they were filming videos here and there on a phone, maybe after July 19th?

Yes, but requires some knowledge of settings. They probably just used airplane mode.

 

[NJSleuth91]

The overall picture we have a Bryer before his crimes is quite disturbing to me. While you could dismiss any one of these things, of course, it shows a consistency, to me, that just shows where his head was at. Because it's not just him pretending to masturbate to a framed photo of Hitler. There is far, far more.

How about a list?

- First and foremost, we have the benefit of hindsight. This man was a willing participant in the brutal murder of 3 innocent victims. He then killed himself to avoid capture.

SBM

Yes, I agree with the benefit of hindsight, it looks significantly more disturbing. But that's my point. With the benefit of hindsight. My point is that tons of people, especially socially awkward teenagers trying to be edgy, have equally disturbing behavior and never hurt anyone.

There's a reason why nobody who knew him said anything about reporting his behavior to his parents, the school, etc. Because there's always the "weird kids" in every school and usually they turn out fine in the end. And especially with gamer culture, this type of behavior is common. His gamer friends have even been interviewed and said that making Nazi jokes and using offensive pictures is common in gamer culture and they didn't think much of it. I mean, a gaming group he was part of on Steam is now using his picture on their page. You may be offended by that type of humor and you're perfectly within your rights to be. But it's very common, especially in certain subcultures.

- "when they were playing video games, like 'Can you imagine if this was real?' kind of a thing. And he'd get a little too excited about it." (source)

If you look at the original interview she said immediately after that "But, I mean, lots of kids do that and they don't turn out to be suspected murderers."

- “There were times he would tell me and my friends ways he wanted to kill us and then himself, which is scary,” she said. “One of my friends commented that Bryer said he wanted to kill his whole family.” (source)

She also said she thought he was joking to get attention from people because he didn't have many friends.

- "One friend said he was on a camping trip with Mr. Schmegelsky and Mr. McLeod. Mr. Schmegelsky was wearing a Nazi armband and military fatigues and using a replica Nazi knife to crush up Ritalin tablets and snort them. “I’m so dumbfounded that Kam would be a part of this,” said the teen." (source)

That is bizarre, but TBH I'm still not entirely sure that wasn't meant to be some elaborate attempt at trolling, given that he trolled people a lot. It seems like a lot of things he did were some weird hybrid of trolling and serious -- and certain subcultures he identified with are known for that sort of thing, that "Am I joking or am I not? Nobody knows for sure!" thing.

- "Another online gamer recalled Mr. Schmegelsky making jokes on SnapChat about cutting people’s heads off." (same source as previous)

Yes, and those were described as "jokes."

This was not a guy with a quirky sense of humor. This guy should have been dealt with long before he killed three people. If there is an inquiry, that's what it's going to be about. This is not a normal person, and it seems blindingly obvious that he had violent, homicidal, and suicidal fantasies.

BBM

I totally agree that if there is an inquiry, it's going to be about a "How did this happen and why didn't anyone notice the warning signs? How can we prevent this from happening again?" thing. And I've made many posts on that myself, because I still absolutely 100% believe this could have been prevented.

And I'm not saying that with the benefit of hindsight, these weren't warning signs. I'm just saying that they're not that much out of the realm of typical "teenagers trying to be edgy" behavior, and that's why they were overlooked for many years.

 

[Jan424]

Yes, but requires some knowledge of settings. They probably just used airplane mode.

Oh, that's right, thank you. I'm sure they did know the settings. IMO

 

[MistyWaters]

That's interesting--thank you!

SBM I know it is probably a pipe dream to hope for something that thorough on this case ever (or anytime in the near future), but I would read every page of it if it existed.

As is, I suspect whatever is released about this case in the form of a report is probably going to be more like the 40-ish page one released about the Toronto shooting that other people have referenced--detailed but not massive.

Compiling a 1,000+ page report on anything is a huge undertaking and probably isn't the norm if it isn't the result of a formal inquiry?

The nursing home failed to protect the safety of the residents who were in their care, which is of public concern to us all.

But it wasn’t another entity who was responsible for protecting LD, L&C from crossing paths with B&K, as they were independent adults who had the right to travel where they chose.

 

[MistyWaters]

I totally agree that if there is an inquiry, it's going to be about a "How did this happen and why didn't anyone notice the warning signs? How can we prevent this from happening again?" thing. And I've made many posts on that myself, because I still absolutely 100% believe this could have been prevented.

And I'm not saying that with the benefit of hindsight, these weren't warning signs. I'm just saying that they're not that much out of the realm of typical "teenagers trying to be edgy" behavior, and that's why they were overlooked for many years.

Couldn’t that be said for any homicide? Why did it happen and why didn’t anyone notice the warning signs? Are people to be held liable if they fail to notice warning signs? And even if they are concerned, then what? In Canada we don’t arrest people just because a parent or friend has concerns about something another “might” do if the only evidence is warning signs, such as “joking” about killing people.

The “what went wrong” is very broad topic always of high interest concerning, police, social services, and psychologists along with a whole host of other professionals but unfortunately there’s no one answer that’s applicable across the board and it’s far greater than a Canadian issue than can ever be resolved from review of only one example.

 

[Gina20]

RCMP tentatively connected them to the murders on July 19, soon after their burning truck and a nearby body was reported.

Their cellphone records between July 12 and July 19 were collected before they were named as suspects. We can assume KM/BS took measures to prevent locating their phones after July 19.

People make public appeals to missing family members without knowing that they will see the appeal. Liana White's husband made such an appeal. He surely knew she would not see it, because he was found guilty of murdering her.

 

[sandbar]

That's what I think also. These articles are full of poor word choices that confuse people. If there was contact, I don't think he would have shown the unanswered texts.

Some reporters, don't investigate and develop a story, they paraphrase an already published article, which can alter the original meaning.

 

[copkid]

It has been pointed out in long discussions here that the wording of both DS and KM's statements to the media is similar. IMO, it could have been taken from the same script.

We have no context for most of what has happened in this case. It bears repeating now, in light of new information, that none of the parents made a direct public appeal to their children to give themselves up. That is not a judgment. It is a fact. It also stands in contrast to what has become the norm in today's media age, where families appeal to their loved ones on the run from police to stand down and turn themselves in.

We might learn why this was in the near future when the RCMP release their report.

It does stand out, which is why I am repeating what has already been discussed here at length. It may have to do with the existence of videos.

Agreed, it is odd that parents did not make a media plea for their sons to come home or to turn themselves in.

Possibly the plea from all parents was done by personally calling the cell phones of BS/KM, especially when they were first reported as missing. I would be frantically and repeatedly be calling my sons cell phone.

When the phones were not answered the parents would leave a voice message begging them to call back. BS/KM would be more likely to hear a voicemail than to see a media plea when on a road trip. JMO

 

[FactFinder3000]

But that's my point. With the benefit of hindsight. My point is that tons of people, especially socially awkward teenagers trying to be edgy, have equally disturbing behavior and never hurt anyone.

Well, we will continue to agree to disagree. Any one joke, maybe. But not when he is clearly obsessed.

I'll say one last thing, because this is clearly just going to go in circles, Bryer's former friends knew something was wrong. They just didn't know what to do about it. So they didn't need the benefit of hindsight and neither would I. I would never hang out with somebody consistently displaying these behaviors. Because it's disturbing.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Couldn’t that be said for any homicide? Why did it happen and why didn’t anyone notice the warning signs? Are people to be held liable if they fail to notice warning signs? And even if they are concerned, then what? In Canada we don’t arrest people just because a parent or friend has concerns about something another “might” do if the only evidence is warning signs, such as “joking” about killing people.

The “what went wrong” is very broad topic always of high interest concerning, police, social services, and psychologists along with a whole host of other professionals but unfortunately there’s no one answer that’s applicable across the board and it’s far greater than a Canadian issue than can ever be resolved from review of only one example.

When did I ever say anything about holding people liable for failing to notice warning signs, or putting people in jail for joking about killing people?

 

[Gina20]

Agreed, it is odd that parents did not make a media plea for their sons to come home or to turn themselves in.

Possibly the plea from all parents was done by personally calling the cell phones of BS/KM, especially when they were first reported as missing. I would be frantically and repeatedly be calling my sons cell phone.

When the phones were not answered the parents would leave a voice message begging them to call back. BS/KM would be more likely to hear a voicemail than to see a media plea when on a road trip. JMO

Missed opportunity to reach out and use the media attention for a last-ditch appeal to their children?

Or did they know there was no turning back and an appeal was completely futile? It seems odd that all of them were on the same page. Even AS seemed resigned to their fate.

What went on in private? We don't know. There was no public appeal to Bryer and Kam directly to turn themselves in.

 

[Esprite]

Couldn’t that be said for any homicide? Why did it happen and why didn’t anyone notice the warning signs? Are people to be held liable if they fail to notice warning signs? And even if they are concerned, then what? In Canada we don’t arrest people just because a parent or friend has concerns about something another “might” do if the only evidence is warning signs, such as “joking” about killing people.

The “what went wrong” is very broad topic always of high interest concerning, police, social services, and psychologists along with a whole host of other professionals but unfortunately there’s no one answer that’s applicable across the board and it’s far greater than a Canadian issue than can ever be resolved from review of only one example.

Yes, and the focus for all systems, including education, court and medical, is always on the protection of minors, and very little on when the child turns deadly. In my experience, this can happen even with very young children in seemingly perfect homes. One thing I've learned is that you never know what's going on behind closed doors.

 

[Satchie]

Couldn’t that be said for any homicide? Why did it happen and why didn’t anyone notice the warning signs? Are people to be held liable if they fail to notice warning signs? And even if they are concerned, then what? In Canada we don’t arrest people just because a parent or friend has concerns about something another “might” do if the only evidence is warning signs, such as “joking” about killing people.

The “what went wrong” is very broad topic always of high interest concerning, police, social services, and psychologists along with a whole host of other professionals but unfortunately there’s no one answer that’s applicable across the board and it’s far greater than a Canadian issue than can ever be resolved from review of only one example.

I agree, inquiries are only conducted when there is some perceived failure of the "system", ie a bureaucracy where people are paid to interact with the public and make decisions.

I don't think these guys were in any kind of system except school, and they had both finished before they committed any crimes.

When police talk about motives , I think they refer to motives along the lines of the 7 deadly sins: robbery, sexual assault, an argument that got out of control, a deep grudge. IMO, 'mental disturbance' will be alluded to only if the person or the family sought help for it from a professional, or if witnesses can describe behaviour that was violent and felt threatening.

Acting "weird", or being antisocial, or posting bad things online is not a reason to prevent them from being a free citizen, able to travel where they want in their own country.

If someone finds internet posts to be offensive, then they can complain to the poster or community, or maybe launch a human rights complaint about a hate crime. But going to parents or police insisting that the kid who posted it will inevitably kill some people someday, would not produce good results.

 

[Jan424]

Missed opportunity to reach out and use the media attention for a last-ditch appeal to their children?
Or did they know there was no turning back and an appeal was completely futile? It seems odd that all of them were on the same page. Even AS seemed resigned to their fate.
What went on in private? We don't know. There was no public appeal to Bryer and Kam directly to turn themselves in.

Exactly. Agree 100%

 

[CanadianSleuther]

Or did they know there was no turning back and an appeal was completely futile? It seems odd that all of them were on the same page. Even AS seemed resigned to their fate.

Didn't Alan say he wouldn't believe his son is responsible without proof?

 

[Esprite]

Here's the bitter irony: a narcissistic child, who turn pathological, can be created by over compensation from those who perceive that child to be an eternal victim. The child might start to believe that they are truly special, even omnipotent. Bryer probably didn't care that he was mostly rejected by his peers, as he had a rich fantasy world fueled by violent gaming and acceptance of other gamers online. This became his reality.

 

[Zella]

Didn't Alan say he wouldn't believe his son is responsible without proof?

He did, but I didn't think the way he said it in the 60 Minutes interview was super defensive. I was actually surprised by how reasonable he seemed in that moment. If I remember correctly, he was teary-eyed and said it in a broken voice--that he couldn't just accept that without proof--but he didn't seem to be ruling out that he wouldn't be convinced if there was evidence. MOO

 

[sandbar]

It wouldn't have mattered if they did. By the time they were named as suspects, they were long gone into an area with no cell coverage.

Whether parental pleas to come home would have had any impact on the outcome, we'll never know. But that the parents didn't ask or plead speaks volumes (to me) about each of K&B's relationships with their parents.