Found Deceased Canada - Norah, 11 & Romy Carpentier, 6, Quebec, 9 July 2020 *father died of suicide*

  • #241
I wonder if he had a head injury that made him go crazy and kill them?
That's what I am wondering.

Or could he have thought that for some reason the accident would mean he would lose access to his daughters and he felt he couldn't live with that? Has there been any evidence MC might have been drinking or on drugs at the time of the crash?

It seems as if the theory is that he panicked after the accident? Would a head injury do that? He had to hustle the girls out of the car and across the highway before witnesses got there, right? Was it still light enough that they would have been seen crossing the highway?

It doesn't appear to have been a long-planned act of venegance against the girls' mother like the man who butchered his children and called the children's mother as he did it. Although for Norah and Romy's mother and loved ones, it is small consolation.

What could cause such sudden despair or desparation that he'd run away with the girls immediately after the crash. So confounding. I'm heartbroken for the girls' mother.
 
  • #242
Martin Carpentier and his daughters were dead the day Amber Alert was issued: police | Montreal Gazette
''Spokesperson Guy Lapointe said autopsies have confirmed that Martin Carpentier, 44, and his two daughters were all dead by July 9.

Carpentier had picked up the two girls on the evening of July 8. His car was later found damaged after an accident on Highway 20 just west of Quebec City. Police and volunteers searched for days in the area around the accident, before calling off the land search on July 18.

The collision was an accident, not intentional, Lapointe said.

“Up to that time there was nothing premeditated,” he added''

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/sq-update-martin-carpentier-news-conference-1.5658615

"The reality is, the suspect has died and there are some things we will never really know," said Lapointe.

But Lapointe said a crash on Highway 20 on the evening of July 8 seems to have been a "tipping point" for Carpentier.

Lapointe said that up until that moment, Carpentier showed no signs of violent behaviour. The accident investigation team said the crash did not appear to have been deliberate. But Carpentier left his cellphone in the car, and fled the scene with the two girls.

Police say he then broke into a trailer for some supplies. Shortly after, he killed the girls in the woods''.

That the car accident was some sort of triggering event to this tragedy makes a lot more sense to me than a premeditated murder scenario. I wonder, did MC incur brain injuries as well, causing his thought process to become scrambled? If so, coupled with fear, guilt, avoidance of reality can sometimes cause wild, irrational thoughts. If by chance the girls incurred severe brain injuries because they weren’t strapped in by seatbelts, their deaths may not have been immediate. But even if so, the answers may never be known.

Regardless, my thoughts are with the girls’ mother and other family members. What probably seemed like an ordinary event when he picked up the girls that day turned into an unimaginable horrid, worst nightmare. It’s good his body was finally discovered and it’s now known he posed no additional risk to others because the public notoriety probably added to their great trauma and heartbreak. My condolences.....
 
  • #243
Oh man. This is terrible.
What the heck happened?

I am somewhat relieved that they don't think this was premeditated.
I think this will help the family come to terms with it a bit more, if that is at all possible.
 
  • #244
RIP to those beautiful girls.
Hard for me to believe the story that is being told, Accident occurred then he just snapped, within minutes to hours? MOO.
 
  • #245
RIP to those beautiful girls.
Hard for me to believe the story that is being told, Accident occurred then he just snapped, within minutes to hours? MOO.

Here, come sit with me. I'm having troublke swallowing this too.
 
  • #246
July 24 2020
Coroner Sophie Regniere appointed to investigate Romy, Norah and Martin Carpentier's deaths
''The Coroner's Office issued a news release Friday saying that the aim of the Regniere's investigation will not be to lead to a trial, but hopes to provide answers on the elements that led to the deaths, with the goal of preventing future tragedies. Coroners systematically intervene when a death occurs in violent circumstances.''

''The Coroner's Office added that certain facts stated during the Surete du Quebec (SQ) news conference on July 22 on Romy, Norah and Martin Carpentier's death, including the estimated date of their deaths, are based on preliminary analyses and that they could be reviewed based on the elements brought to light during the coroner's investigation.''
 
  • #247
Thank you to those who continue to follow & update the thread.

I thought the presser was quite good, they gave more information than I expected, but I do have certain difficulties with the idea that everything was totally normal then car accident -> double infanticide -> suicide in the space of ~12 hours :(.

However, IIUC the coroner has wider access to medical files/other background than police may do, so there may eventually be further elucidation on that.

Des précisions sur le rôle du coroner Communiqué about the case.

It’ll be a while before the coroner’s report is published (on average 11 months). In the meantime I hope that the family and the people who discovered the bodies are receiving all possible support and help.
 
  • #248
Thank you to those who continue to follow & update the thread.

I thought the presser was quite good, they gave more information than I expected, but I do have certain difficulties with the idea that everything was totally normal then car accident -> double infanticide -> suicide in the space of ~12 hours :(.

However, IIUC the coroner has wider access to medical files/other background than police may do, so there may eventually be further elucidation on that.

Des précisions sur le rôle du coroner Communiqué about the case.

It’ll be a while before the coroner’s report is published (on average 11 months). In the meantime I hope that the family and the people who discovered the bodies are receiving all possible support and help.
The first anomaly was running away from the crash site and leaving means of communication (his phone) behind. Of course one could speculate that he tried to find help, but he could receive help from other drivers.

Did he think he would lose partial custody of the children because of the accident? This was no reason to kill them. Either he thought they could not live without him (why?) or it was some sort of revenge against his ex, which would imply premeditation.

Another option would be that he had an irrational persecution complex, thinking that he and the children were hunted and would be harmed. In that case they would likely have stayed together (or died together) until they were located.

By hanging himself he admitted his responsibility for their deaths. He must have known that they (and he) would eventually be found. I can't imagine how he justified wandering through the woods for hours to the kids.

I wonder if his daughters would still be alive if there was no car crash. It would also be interesting to know where he took them right before the accident.
 
  • #249
My co worker divorced in Quebec ! They have an agreement who has the kids , and when. If they travel they need a month notice written in agreement letter. I know cause she missed 3 days work and apparently they kid were missing



Choosing my words *very carefully*: we don’t know that he “took” the children... There has been no official information or comment on what custody or residency or visitation agreement exists.

Generally speaking, in QC separated/divorced parents have equal parental authority, then there are all sorts of permutations regarding children’s habitual residence (with which parent) etc.
 
  • #250
The first anomaly was running away from the crash site and leaving means of communication (his phone) behind. Of course one could speculate that he tried to find help, but he could receive help from other drivers.

Did he think he would lose partial custody of the children because of the accident? This was no reason to kill them. Either he thought they could not live without him (why?) or it was some sort of revenge against his ex, which would imply premeditation.

Another option would be that he had an irrational persecution complex, thinking that he and the children were hunted and would be harmed. In that case they would likely have stayed together (or died together) until they were located.

By hanging himself he admitted his responsibility for their deaths. He must have known that they (and he) would eventually be found. I can't imagine how he justified wandering through the woods for hours to the kids.

I wonder if his daughters would still be alive if there was no car crash. It would also be interesting to know where he took them right before the accident.

A paylocked Globe and Mail article reported the girls were injured as a result of the accident although no mention of the extent of their injuries.

Quebec police say father killed two daughters, died later by suicide

I’ll add my speculation, that his distorted brain thought he had somehow flawed or imperfected the children and so they were all better off dead.

Or a combination of the above - he believed criminal negligence charges from the car accident would occur, so he essentially destroyed all the evidence and convicted himself through the taking his own life.
 
  • #251
Wow. This is a situation where I'd like to see medical examiner's reports but I feel like we never will. Did he go get supplies to try to treat the girls or did he get weapons to kill them? We don't know and it makes a big difference. Did he have a head injury too? I could certainly run away while carrying 11 and 6 year old girls especially if I had been reduced to animal brain but I wouldn't have shut the doors, I don't think. Do I remember that in the picture of the car all the doors were closed? How much blood was in the car?
 
  • #252
My co worker divorced in Quebec ! They have an agreement who has the kids , and when. If they travel they need a month notice written in agreement letter. I know cause she missed 3 days work and apparently they kid were missing

So did I.

I was pointing out that there is no standard “one size fits all” child custody/visitation/residency etc agreement. Mine had quite a few ‘personalized’ details written in and endorsed by a judge. Just like your co-worker’s does. Some agreements are or can be more flexible than others.

AND we have no idea what the one concerning Norah & Romy specified. If you check the info from the press conference, widely reported, there was initially NO concern about MC kidnapping or harming the children from their family, both maternal and his.It seems he was just taking them out for ice cream locally, no “travel” planned or involved.
 
  • #253
Wow. This is a situation where I'd like to see medical examiner's reports but I feel like we never will. Did he go get supplies to try to treat the girls or did he get weapons to kill them? We don't know and it makes a big difference. Did he have a head injury too? I could certainly run away while carrying 11 and 6 year old girls especially if I had been reduced to animal brain but I wouldn't have shut the doors, I don't think. Do I remember that in the picture of the car all the doors were closed? How much blood was in the car?

BBM: the coroner’s report will - eventually - be public, but we’re about a year out from that.

Re the car: I’ve seen pictures with 1 and 2 of the doors open, but they didn’t come from LE/verified MSM so I don’t think we know whether that’s how the car was found immediately after the accident, or if witnesses/first responders opened them to check for occupants.

Re blood in car: not yet specified/revealed.
 
  • #254
FWIW, imo.
Characteristics of 4 Types of Family Murderers
2018 rbbm. snippets.
''August was found to be the most common month for the killing to take place, accounting for 20 percent of cases. Just under half of all murders were committed over weekends, especially on a Sunday.''

''Also refuted is the idea that murderers may be unhappy or frustrated men with a long life history of failure. Some had been highly successful in their careers before the murder.''

''The Four Types of Family Murderers
The researchers identified the following four types of family murderers:''

''Self-righteous: The killer seeks to locate blame for his crimes upon the mother whom he holds responsible for the breakdown of the family.''

''Disappointed: This killer believes his family has let him down or has acted in ways to undermine or destroy his vision of ideal family life''

''Anomic: In these cases the family has become firmly linked in the mind of the killer to the economy. The father sees family as the result of his economic success, allowing him to display his achievements. However, if the father becomes an economic failure, he sees the family as no longer serving this function.''

''Paranoid: Those who perceive an external threat to the family. This is often social services or the legal system, which the father fears will side against him and take away the children''

''In all of these cases masculinity and perceptions of power sets the background for the crimes. The family role of the father is central to their ideas of masculinity and the murders represent a last ditch attempt to perform a masculine role.''
 
  • #255
I wonder if the girls were afraid while they were with him. When the accident happened, could the girls have fled and he ran after them in pursuit?

It would explain, leaving the phone behind. If he was angry enough at that point I could see a tipping point. The girls were scared, they ran, they screwed up his plan and he lashed out.

We'll never know but just a thought.
 
  • #256
I wonder if the girls were afraid while they were with him. When the accident happened, could the girls have fled and he ran after them in pursuit?

It would explain, leaving the phone behind. If he was angry enough at that point I could see a tipping point. The girls were scared, they ran, they screwed up his plan and he lashed out.

We'll never know but just a thought.
According to one of the news reports he was seen crossing the highway with both daughters, carrying the younger one, so it's unlikely that they ran away from the accident scene on their own.
 
  • #257
According to one of the news reports he was seen crossing the highway with both daughters, carrying the younger one, so it's unlikely that they ran away from the accident scene on their own.
Wondering now if MC was a perfectionist and his beautiful "works of art" were now "flawed" so he ''destroyed'' them? Complete speculation, imo.

What investigators revealed about deaths of girls, father in Quebec
July 22 2020 rbbm.
''Police accident analysts concluded Carpentier tried to regain control of the car and the crash was not deliberate.

- The father and daughters are last seen crossing the highway into a wooded area. Carpentier is barefoot and is carrying one of the girls.

- They walk south into the woods, covering 1.7 kilometres before reaching an empty trailer. DNA evidence puts Carpentier inside the trailer, and police believe the girls were still with him. He steals items, including a shovel and a lighter.

- About 750 metres further south, the bodies of Norah and Romy are found on July 11. Autopsy results show the girls had been injured in the crash but died from being struck with a blunt object by Carpentier''.
 
  • #258
Wondering now if MC was a perfectionist and his beautiful "works of art" were now "flawed" so he ''destroyed'' them? Complete speculation, imo.

I am pretty sure the older daughter was not his biological daughter but perhaps he had the same bond with them both.
 
  • #259
I fear the motive will never really be known. This is a fairly compressive summary -

SQ reveals how the Carpentier family's deaths played out | Montreal Gazette
“Up until he crashed his car with his two daughters in it on the night of July 8, there was nothing to indicate Martin Carpentier posed a danger to his family, police said Wednesday.

He was travelling on the route he was expected to be taking after going out for ice cream, along Highway 20 near St-Apollinaire, close to Quebec City. Forensic investigation of the scene indicates the crash was an accident, that Carpentier lost control of his vehicle and tried to regain it before smashing. A partially eaten ice cream cone was found left behind. Blood traces indicated at least one of the girls had been injured in the accident.

Police contacted the girls’ family to say there had been an accident and the victims were missing. Family members did not say they were worried Carpentier was trying to kidnap his girls, or would harm them, Sûreté du Québec chief inspector Guy Lapointe said. Carpentier was no longer with the girls’ mother, but was reportedly still on friendly terms with her. It was not until the next day that the SQ would issue an Amber Alert, indicating they feared for the safety of the children, Norah and Romy Carpentier, aged 11 and 6.

By that time, police now know, both the girls and the father were already dead.......

.....“For us, up until the moment of the accident, there was nothing that was premeditated or deliberate,” Lapointe said. “It seems the accident was a tipping point because it was as of then that the behaviour, that we can all, I think, qualify as abnormal, came into play.”

Witnesses spotted Carpentier crossing the highway, carrying one child in his arms, the other walking alongside him. It was the last time they were seen alive. Carpentier left behind one of his sandals in the car, and his cellphone. Records show his parents-in-law called him about an hour after the accident.

Within the next 12 hours, Carpentier walked 1.7 kilometres south into the forest with his daughters, breaking into a trailer. He took a shovel and a lighter.

About 750 metres further south “is where the irreparable happened,” Lapointe said. The two girls were killed with a blunt object. Carpentier made it another 2.5 kilometres further south, stealing a ladder from a resident’s property along the way, then took his life. Police would not say how he killed himself.

“What we know now today is that all these events … all occurred in a very small time frame,” Lapointe said. “On the morning of July 9 all the sad events had played out and all three were already dead.”....”
 
  • #260
There have been several cases on Ws where after relatively minor car accidents, the driver inexplicably went missing. Trying to remember some of them so i can post those threads here, just in case there is some commonality between them.
The first one that comes to mind is Patricia M., can anyone easily recall the others to add to this one?
MT - MT - Patricia Meehan, 37, Circle, 20 April 1989
 

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