Found Safe Canada - O’Driscoll-Zak sisters, 2 & 5, abduction by aunt & grandmother, Cochrane, 12 Mar 2021

[Mystrywrtr62]

I have thought a lot about what the end game is. From the judges comments, there has been significant efforts to alienate the children from the father. Could this be an intensive effort to “finish the job”, ie work on the children to claim abuse? Kids the ages of these two girls are very susceptible to making false claims, to make a parent/grandparent happy. I am concerned about the intent and the long-term wellbeing of the kids. The mom is losing the court battle but getting the kids to claim sexual abuse is the only game changer I can see.

 

[iQuill]

This situation is heartbreaking. That’s all.

 

[MistyWaters]

Day 12 - no updates so far that I’ve noticed.

The investigation into the disappearance of the four, seeking information. is still pinned at the top of Alberta RCMP’s twitter acct.
https://twitter.com/RCMPAlberta/status/1373115311159980033

 

[Seattle1]

I have thought a lot about what the end game is. From the judges comments, there has been significant efforts to alienate the children from the father. Could this be an intensive effort to “finish the job”, ie work on the children to claim abuse? Kids the ages of these two girls are very susceptible to making false claims, to make a parent/grandparent happy. I am concerned about the intent and the long-term wellbeing of the kids. The mom is losing the court battle but getting the kids to claim sexual abuse is the only game changer I can see.

I don't see claims of sexual abuse (while in the care of RMZ) surfacing after the abduction by grandmother and aunt because JOZ has long prevented and/or interfered with reunification with the father for nearly a year.

There's also been a court-appointed therapist involved here and I believe if any suspicion of abuse (i.e., a motive for mom prevent children seeing dad) probably satisfied long ago by physical examinations of the children.

Also, if both children attend preschool and/or primary school, most require physicals prior to entrance.

In other words, I think the children have already been examined to nip any prior abuse claims and present claims would be impossible.

MOO

 

[Mystrywrtr62]

I don't see claims of sexual abuse (while in the care of RMZ) surfacing after the abduction by grandmother and aunt because JOZ has long prevented and/or interfered with reunification with the father for nearly a year.

There's also been a court-appointed therapist involved here and I believe if any suspicion of abuse (i.e., a motive for mom prevent children seeing dad) probably satisfied long ago by physical examinations of the children.

Also, if both children attend preschool and/or primary school, most require physicals prior to entrance.

In other words, I think the children have already been examined to nip any prior abuse claims and present claims would be impossible.

MOO

I hope that you are correct - we don’t get details as to what specific allegations were made, but in the judgment Justice Price does make the comment that”countervailing allegations of abuse/alienation are exchanged”. They have to come back at some point, so just trying to understand what their “plan” in abducting the children might be.

 

[iQuill]

Checking in for an update, I’m surprised they have not been located. We don’t know the real story and there’s always three sides “his, hers, and the truth”.

What we do know is that two little girls have been and continue to be greatly impacted by the breakdown of their parents relationship and the unfolding drama happening now with their grandma and auntie. Shame on all the adults that have caused this tragedy and not protected these innocent children from physical and emotional harm. Moo

 

[Mystrywrtr62]

Checking in for an update, I’m surprised they have not been located. We don’t know the real story and there’s always three sides “his, hers, and the truth”.

What we do know is that two little girls have been and continue to be greatly impacted by the breakdown of their parents relationship and the unfolding drama happening now with their grandma and auntie. Shame on all the adults that have caused this tragedy and not protected these innocent children from physical and emotional harm. Moo

I get the both sides aspect of the custody battle. However there isn’t two sides to abducting the child. Mother’s family is the party in the wrong and they need to return the children. I don’t think they intend to stay away permanently, so I would like to understand the purpose of the abduction. They know they are committing a criminal offence. For what ultimate purpose? They must have had a plan.

 

[Dre]

I get the both sides aspect of the custody battle. However there isn’t two sides to abducting the child. Mother’s family is the party in the wrong and they need to return the children. I don’t think they intend to stay away permanently, so I would like to understand the purpose of the abduction. They know they are committing a criminal offence. For what ultimate purpose? They must have had a plan.

Did they have a plan though? I feel like it was an overwhelming and frantic emotional reaction of thinking they were doing the “right” thing.. very short sighted as they are in heaps of trouble now. The better plan would have been to wrangle up the best of the best lawyers and fight tooth and nail to get a different judge. I feel for them, but they have messed up big time and are traumatizing the little ones and everyone else involved. I don’t think theyd thought through the fact they would be in the middle of a manhunt, and they are likely struggling every day to figure out what the heck to do. Moo

 

[Inthedetails]

Did they have a plan though? I feel like it was an overwhelming and frantic emotional reaction of thinking they were doing the “right” thing.. very short sighted as they are in heaps of trouble now. The better plan would have been to wrangle up the best of the best lawyers and fight tooth and nail to get a different judge. I feel for them, but they have messed up big time and are traumatizing the little ones and everyone else involved. I don’t think theyd thought through the fact they would be in the middle of a manhunt, and they are likely struggling every day to figure out what the heck to do. Moo

I agree. I think there is no long-term plan, which is good in that they will get caught/turn themselves, but bad, of course, for the kids to be living in uncertainty and confusion.

jmo

 

[Seattle1]

I don't think the abduction was a last-minute idea. The parents have been in court for more than a year. I think JOZ's previous attorney warned her she was on very shaky ground with the court just before she terminated his representation end of December. JOZ was never going to let CMZ take the children -- not two years ago and not two weeks ago either. JOZ has not made a single plea to her sister and mother to return the children. MOO

 

[otto]

Did they have a plan though? I feel like it was an overwhelming and frantic emotional reaction of thinking they were doing the “right” thing.. very short sighted as they are in heaps of trouble now. The better plan would have been to wrangle up the best of the best lawyers and fight tooth and nail to get a different judge. I feel for them, but they have messed up big time and are traumatizing the little ones and everyone else involved. I don’t think they'd thought through the fact they would be in the middle of a manhunt, and they are likely struggling every day to figure out what the heck to do. Moo

This strikes me as a well planned decision that was hatched with weeks of organization. The children were last seen at 9:30AM on the day the children vanished. Court starts at 10:00AM, so the children were pre-emptively taken away before the hearing.

When the courts ruled that the father had full custody, the plan was already in place to keep the children hidden. The mother and her family knew that, because the mother interfered with resolving the family conflicts, it was unlikely that she could retain custody.

The family has ties to the legal community, and enlisted the help of several lawyers to both remove the Judge and to throw more wild allegations into the conflict. I think they had poor legal advice. I suspect that at least one lawyer escalated the emotional turmoil and did not dissuade them from the decisions they made.

I'm pretty sure that they knew their actions would result in an RCMP investigation. Perhaps they expected one or more lawyers to sort it out while the children were hidden, but that's impossible while the children are missing.

 

[Inthedetails]

I don't think the abduction was a last-minute idea. The parents have been in court for more than a year. I think JOZ's previous attorney warned her she was on very shaky ground with the court just before she terminated his representation end of December. JOZ was never going to let CMZ take the children -- not two years ago and not two weeks ago either. JOZ has not made a single plea to her sister and mother to return the children. MOO

I don't think it was a last-minute idea, but I also don't think they have a plan to maintain this situation for 16 years, until the youngest is an adult.

Does grandma collect retirement money? Does aunt need to work? Will aunt want to access retirement funds some day? Will the kids be enrolled in school or any activities at all? What if someone gets sick or injured and needs to go to doctor or hospital? What if they need police assistance at some point, like after a potential robbery or car accident? What are they doing long term for housing, transportation, utilities? Will someone outside the family really support and hide them for 16 years, at risk of their own liberty? Even if they have cash handy to last 16 years in hiding, you can't make all financial transactions in cash.

Then again, they haven't been caught yet so what do I know.

jmo

 

[Dre]

It just feels like such a stupid plan. Unless he is truly a wolf in sheep’s clothing and terribly abusive and worth the 16 years of hiding (no indication of this, he is a victim) it was just an absolute terrible plan. I could see a mother, raw with emotion to pull a stunt like this but the sister and mother risking so much? Just blows my mind.

 

[otto]

I don't think it was a last-minute idea, but I also don't think they have a plan to maintain this situation for 16 years, until the youngest is an adult.

Does grandma collect retirement money? Does aunt need to work? Will aunt want to access retirement funds some day? Will the kids be enrolled in school or any activities at all? What if someone gets sick or injured and needs to go to doctor or hospital? What if they need police assistance at some point, like after a potential robbery or car accident? What are they doing long term for housing, transportation, utilities? Will someone outside the family really support and hide them for 16 years, at risk of their own liberty? Even if they have cash handy to last 16 years in hiding, you can't make all financial transactions in cash.

Then again, they haven't been caught yet so what do I know.

jmo

I think a good first step regarding abducted children is to freeze the abductor's bank accounts. That doesn't mean that they don't have access to assets, as they could have access to other accounts without being listed as a joint account holder.

More problematically, as RCMP have stated, someone is probably helping them.

There was an organization that I heard about in the 1980s, women helping women by helping them abduct children and vanish. This was to protect children from dangerous spouses when the courts failed. I don't recall the name, but it was something like "underground." Perhaps one of the lawyers that provided endorsement or advice to the family can enlighten the RCMP.

Here's an article about it:

"The network that became known as Children of the Underground once gave these instructions to a runaway mother, People reported in 1989. Family abduction experts widely consider that group and its leader, Faye Yager, as the face of a movement that once helped men and women take their kids into hiding in order to escape partners they alleged were abusive, and whom the courts had granted custody."​

The underground networks that hid children decades ago still exist

 

[Inthedetails]

I think a good first step regarding abducted children is to freeze the abductor's bank accounts. That doesn't mean that they don't have access to assets, as they could have access to other accounts without being listed as a joint account holder.

More problematically, as RCMP have stated, someone is probably helping them.

There was an organization that I heard about in the 1980s, women helping women by helping them abduct children and vanish. This was to protect children from dangerous spouses when the courts failed. I don't recall the name, but it was something like "underground." Perhaps one of the lawyers that provided endorsement or advice to the family can enlighten the RCMP.

Here's an article about it:

"The network that became known as Children of the Underground once gave these instructions to a runaway mother, People reported in 1989. Family abduction experts widely consider that group and its leader, Faye Yager, as the face of a movement that once helped men and women take their kids into hiding in order to escape partners they alleged were abusive, and whom the courts had granted custody."​

The underground networks that hid children decades ago still exist

I wonder if that group has criteria the mom has to meet before they will help? We don't know what the father potentially did, if anything. I'm thinking the organization would need some assurance that this isn't just done out of spite or drama.

I have wondered if they crossed the border into USA, but are the borders even open right now? They could blend in here as probably the only people following this story in the States are WSers.

That's one reason I think they are in a city like Toronto - easier to blend in and the story is likely not known. And, perhaps there is a network ready to help them hide....but, still, hide from what?

jmo

 

[Inthedetails]

The family has close relatives who are lawyers Caroline O'Driscoll - Litigation Lawyer - Aird & Berlis LLP
and the sister who has disappeared is a legal assistant Team Profile Maverick Law Bragg Creek / Redwood Meadows
I don’t think they did this naively.

Wonder if they are risking their livelihoods by advising a client to defy judge orders. The authorities are not looking for them because they followed the law but because they broke it.

jmo

 

[Satchie]

It just feels like such a stupid plan. Unless he is truly a wolf in sheep’s clothing and terribly abusive and worth the 16 years of hiding (no indication of this, he is a victim) it was just an absolute terrible plan. I could see a mother, raw with emotion to pull a stunt like this but the sister and mother risking so much? Just blows my mind.

I think it may be a desperate power play. IMO, in a divisive custody case, what some families hate the most is that the other parent has any rights or claim whatever over the children. It's all about control.

IMO, the 'plan' is to bend the father to their will, possibly believing he might drop his claim or something, just to have the children returned and some possibility of seeing them, under the mother's total control.

I see it as a statement to the father 'we will go to any lengths, so just give up and submit.'

The other option is to kill him, which has certainly been done before, so perhaps these two decided a potential lifetime of hiding is preferable to a potential lifetime in jail.

 

[otto]

I wonder if that group has criteria the mom has to meet before they will help? We don't know what the father potentially did, if anything. I'm thinking the organization would need some assurance that this isn't just done out of spite or drama.

I have wondered if they crossed the border into USA, but are the borders even open right now? They could blend in here as probably the only people following this story in the States are WSers.

That's one reason I think they are in a city like Toronto - easier to blend in and the story is likely not known. And, perhaps there is a network ready to help them hide....but, still, hide from what?

jmo

What I recall of the organization is that, if the mother claims that they fear for their children, that's all the organization needs. It's overly emotional, fight the system, people who escalate emotions and tension to interfere with custodial rights and decisions.

The Canadian border is closed due to covid, so everyone crossing the Canadian border is checked. RCMP believe that the children are in Canada.

I hope that RCMP are able to obtain search warrants to search the properties and homes of the mother, grandmother and aunt. The children vanished from a rural home where there is no public transportation. Vehicles belonging to the aunt and grandmother are at their homes. Someone drove them to a different location, or they are hidden at the home.

Being hidden at the home seems like a good possibility to me, as it ensures that the mother continues to have access to the children, and no one can be charged with abduction.

 

[Satchie]

But now it occurs to me, possibly the grandmother/ aunt are concerned about what the mother or father might do to the children out of desperation, we've seen several recent cases of children being murdered by their parent rather than share custody, so perhaps it's more of a rescue until everyone settles down, than an abduction.

 

[Inthedetails]

I think it may be a desperate power play. IMO, in a divisive custody case, what some families hate the most is that the other parent has any rights or claim whatever over the children. It's all about control.

IMO, the 'plan' is to bend the father to their will, possibly believing he might drop his claim or something, just to have the children returned and some possibility of seeing them, under the mother's total control.

I see it as a statement to the father 'we will go to any lengths, so just give up and submit.'

The other option is to kill him, which has certainly been done before, so perhaps these two decided a potential lifetime of hiding is preferable to a potential lifetime in jail.

There are some people who react to everything with drama and chaos, and that what this case looks like to me. Even if the custody agreements were smooth, this type of person, imo, would still create chaos and drama. Rather than deal with it and make the best of it, throw everything around and make a mess of it.

As an outsider looking in, that's what it looks like. And when this drama is over, there will be more. Again. Repeat.

jmopinion