Canadian hostage, wife & children freed from Afghanistan, husband arrested for abuse, Oct 2017 #3

[otto]

Thanks Otto I appreciate your input.

I get it. Parents have access and custody rights and this bill gives grandparents the right to file an application with the courts to gain some sort of access or custody of grandchildren.

We don't know if the Boyle's filled an application with the court for visitation.

But that is all moot now. JB's charges have all been dismissed, his strict bail conditions revoked and IMO it will be full steam ahead in their divorce and custody battle.

We don't know whether Coleman made any effort to ensure that the children got to know their Canadian grandparents, or whether the grandparents filed applications to see the children.

If the grandparents requested visitation with the grandchildren and that was denied, it demonstrates an absence of good will on behalf of Coleman. Canadian custody proceedings may automatically factor that into the decision. That is, given there have already been issues, a clause regarding visitation and access for grandparents may be included without the grandparents having to make a separate application.

 

[MyBelle]

Came across this statement from JB's lawyer, Lawrence Greenspan to CNN, regarding gaining access and then custody of the children

Joshua Boyle verdict: Charges dropped against freed Taliban hostage - CNN DEC 20, 2019

Greenspon said Doody spent three and a half hours reading his decision to the court.
"He went through all the evidence of both Joshua and Caitlan, and reached a decision with which Joshua and his family, and we are very pleased," Greenspon said. "For them, this is really the first step to obtaining their main priority, which is access and eventually hopefully custody of the four children."

Joshua Boyle’s lawyer says ‘very pleased’ with dismissal of charges | Watch News Videos Online

At the 50 second mark

Video of Greenspan outside the Ottawa Courthouse with reports where he states JB's priority has always been getting access and hopefully, someday custody of his children

------------------

I think he'll petition the court to order the mother to return the children to Canada. If she doesn't comply, she's just continuing to dig a bigger hole for herself.

It was very foolish for her to flee the country with the children and then accuse him of abuse. Tons of our taxpayer dollars go to services to assist victims of domestic violence. I assume Canada has similar protections.

JMO

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. There's no way he's going to set foot in the US. Jurisdiction issues I don't think are so cut and dry... The kids are US citizens who have been living in the US for several years now. I'm sure they have relationships with therapists, doctors, teachers, social workers, etc. I don't think a court would decide that uprooting them from a stable environment after the trauma they were born into would be in their best interest.

Of course, a good lawyer could keep an international custody fight going until they are all adults.

 

[Stunned]

I don’t really care what the courts decided. I think he is a very ill man. I would not let another child around. When I think what some people do to finally win the custody thing, I shudder.

He will want those children, not because he is the dad of the year, he’ll want them because she has them. Somebody better watch this intensely, or this will blow!

 

[LadyL]

Vomit.

I doubt it, still. Just playing everyone around him.

He will move on. Screenplay? Book?

vomit is right
this ruling made me sick to my stomach
and yeah he thinks he's special so a book for sure

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Of course, courts can do whatever they want, but... The children are habitually resident in the US for well over a year now; CC did not abduct them, she had a court order allowing her to move them to the US (sorry, Otto); the children have no real connection with Canada as they only lived there for a few months; all evidence of their current health, education, and welfare is in the US, not Canada; and I believe CC filed for divorce, and I would presume custody, and a restraining order in her current location in the US.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5145716x

The judge also seems to think favorably of CC:

The judge was presented with wildly different stories by Boyle and Coleman, but ultimately decided that it was in the best interests of the children to allow them to return to Pennsylvania with their mother. “Under the exceptional circumstances of this case, requiring C.C. (Caitlan Coleman) and the children to remain in Ottawa would be akin to once again holding them hostage.”
...
Justice Engelking, however, said she received no evidence to support the contention that Coleman suffers from a mental health issue that could affect her suitability as a parent.

“The court does have evidence, on the other hand, that C.C. is healthily and protectively parenting the children,” Engelking noted before concluding: “Based on all of the evidence before me, I can find little to suggest C.C. would not be a suitable temporary custodian of the children.”
Ex-hostage American Caitlan Coleman accuses Canadian husband Joshua Boyle of abuse, in court documents

My guess is that the Ontario judge will defer to the US court handling the divorce, where CC and the children have lived for the past couple of years.

Child Custody Jurisdiction in Canada | The Law Office of Jeremy D. Morley

BBM

c. Ontario

-In Ontario, the rules are contained in Sections 22 and 23 of the Children's Law Reform Act. Those provisions are as follows:

Jurisdiction

22. (1) A court shall only exercise its jurisdiction to make an order for custody of or access to a child where,

(a) the child is habitually resident in Ontario at the commencement of the application for the order;

(b) although the child is not habitually resident in Ontario, the court is satisfied,

(i) that the child is physically present in Ontario at the commencement of the application for the order,

(ii) that substantial evidence concerning the best interests of the child is available in Ontario,

(iii) that no application for custody of or access to the child is pending before an extra-provincial tribunal in another place where the child is habitually resident,

(iv) that no extra-provincial order in respect of custody of or access to the child has been recognized by a court in Ontario,

(v) that the child has a real and substantial connection with Ontario, and

(vi) that, on the balance of convenience, it is appropriate for jurisdiction to be exercised in Ontario.

R.S.O. 1990, c. C.12, s. 22 (1).m

 

[otto]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. There's no way he's going to set foot in the US. Jurisdiction issues I don't think are so cut and dry... The kids are US citizens who have been living in the US for several years now. I'm sure they have relationships with therapists, doctors, teachers, social workers, etc. I don't think a court would decide that uprooting them from a stable environment after the trauma they were born into would be in their best interest.

Of course, a good lawyer could keep an international custody fight going until they are all adults.

The children have dual citizenship, and the current "temporary custody" order was opened in Canada in 2018. The children spent more time in captivity than in the USA.

"Shortly after the family landed on Canadian soil, Boyle told reporters that his wife had been raped and one of their children was killed during their time in captivity. The allegations were later denied by the Taliban.

After a short stay with Boyle’s parents the family attempted to build a normal life in Ottawa, renting an apartment and giving their children their first-ever taste of freedom.

Months later, the couple was locked in a custody battle in an Ontario court. ... “The court does have evidence, on the other hand, that CC (Caitlan Coleman) is healthily and protectively parenting the children,” the judge noted as she granted Coleman temporary custody of the children.

“To say that the circumstances of this case are tragic in the extreme would be an understatement,” the judge added. “Under the exceptional circumstances of this case, requiring CC and the children to remain in Ottawa would be akin to once again holding them hostage.”
...
The pair was abducted after leaving a Kabul guesthouse in a taxi, and held by the Taliban-linked Haqqani network.​

Sept 2018
Ex-hostage says husband abused her while family held captive in Afghanistan

 

[MyBelle]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. There's no way he's going to set foot in the US. Jurisdiction issues I don't think are so cut and dry... The kids are US citizens who have been living in the US for several years now. I'm sure they have relationships with therapists, doctors, teachers, social workers, etc. I don't think a court would decide that uprooting them from a stable environment after the trauma they were born into would be in their best interest.

Of course, a good lawyer could keep an international custody fight going until they are all adults.

I disagree. I also think the court will act in the best interest of the children. They had a relationship with their father and he continues to have parental rights. With no proof of child abuse no court is going to deny access to his children. They have rights, too.

The children lived with both parents in Canada before the mother absconded with them to another country. Nothing good ever comes out of a court battle for custody. The kids are the biggest losers. The mother needs to pull up her big girl undies and get them back to Canada.

I saw an interview with Dorothy Lee Barnett a year or so ago about her kidnapping her baby twenty years ago. She had no remorse whatsoever for denying the father access to his child and for denying the child access to her father. The child grew up believing another man was her father. Very sad case.

JMO

 

[otto]

Of course, courts can do whatever they want, but... The children are habitually resident in the US for well over a year now; CC did not abduct them, she had a court order allowing her to move them to the US (sorry, Otto); the children have no real connection with Canada as they only lived there for a few months; all evidence of their current health, education, and welfare is in the US, not Canada; and I believe CC filed for divorce, and I would presume custody, and a restraining order in her current location in the US.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5145716x

The judge also seems to think favorably of CC:

The judge was presented with wildly different stories by Boyle and Coleman, but ultimately decided that it was in the best interests of the children to allow them to return to Pennsylvania with their mother. “Under the exceptional circumstances of this case, requiring C.C. (Caitlan Coleman) and the children to remain in Ottawa would be akin to once again holding them hostage.”
...
Justice Engelking, however, said she received no evidence to support the contention that Coleman suffers from a mental health issue that could affect her suitability as a parent.

“The court does have evidence, on the other hand, that C.C. is healthily and protectively parenting the children,” Engelking noted before concluding: “Based on all of the evidence before me, I can find little to suggest C.C. would not be a suitable temporary custodian of the children.”
Ex-hostage American Caitlan Coleman accuses Canadian husband Joshua Boyle of abuse, in court documents

My guess is that the Ontario judge will defer to the US court handling the divorce, where CC and the children have lived for the past couple of years.

Child Custody Jurisdiction in Canada | The Law Office of Jeremy D. Morley

BBM

c. Ontario

-In Ontario, the rules are contained in Sections 22 and 23 of the Children's Law Reform Act. Those provisions are as follows:

Jurisdiction

22. (1) A court shall only exercise its jurisdiction to make an order for custody of or access to a child where,

(a) the child is habitually resident in Ontario at the commencement of the application for the order;

(b) although the child is not habitually resident in Ontario, the court is satisfied,

(i) that the child is physically present in Ontario at the commencement of the application for the order,

(ii) that substantial evidence concerning the best interests of the child is available in Ontario,

(iii) that no application for custody of or access to the child is pending before an extra-provincial tribunal in another place where the child is habitually resident,

(iv) that no extra-provincial order in respect of custody of or access to the child has been recognized by a court in Ontario,

(v) that the child has a real and substantial connection with Ontario, and

(vi) that, on the balance of convenience, it is appropriate for jurisdiction to be exercised in Ontario.

R.S.O. 1990, c. C.12, s. 22 (1).m

It's a tough call at this time. I think the sticking point might be that she has "temporary custody" and she was allowed to leave the country with the children because of her 5 years captivity. Status quo is a consideration especially with minor children.

Regardless of custody, the children should have access to both parents, so something has to be sorted out for visitation one way or another. I'm not expecting Boyle to be granted full custody, but I do expect that he will be given access and visitation. Someone has to pay to transport the children back and forth.

 

[Stunned]

It's a tough call at this time. I think the sticking point might be that she has "temporary custody" and she was allowed to leave the country with the children because of her 5 years captivity. Status quo is a consideration especially with minor children.

Regardless of custody, the children should have access to both parents, so something has to be sorted out for visitation one way or another. I'm not expecting Boyle to be granted full custody, but I do expect that he will be given access and visitation. Someone has to pay to transport the children back and forth.

And While I don’t agree. He should be watched like a hawk. Who was the father who set bombs go off while DSS dropped his boys off? I’m embarrassed I don’t remember their names! Powell’s?

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

It's a tough call at this time. I think the sticking point might be that she has "temporary custody" and she was allowed to leave the country with the children because of her 5 years captivity. Status quo is a consideration especially with minor children.

Regardless of custody, the children should have access to both parents, so something has to be sorted out for visitation one way or another. I'm not expecting Boyle to be granted full custody, but I do expect that he will be given access and visitation. Someone has to pay to transport the children back and forth.

As it stands now, he should get visitation. The issues with that are that he won't set foot in the US, the children are too young to travel without an adult accompanying them, and I presume they are all in regular therapy (trauma as well as developmental). Would a judge force the kids to suspend therapy for visits to Canada, just because JB refuses to cross the border? Regardless of the court, I could easily see a deal where he gets visitation but must travel to the US due to the unique situation with the children, he proclaims victory, but then never visits because he won't cross the border. And everyone lives happily ever after.

I also presume CC will continue to press her allegations of abuse, and the standard is much lower in civil proceedings.

ETA. I think it also must be recognized that the judge, in allowing the move to the US, certainly was aware that the children's lives would become enmeshed in the US and that, regardless of the result of the criminal case, relocating them back to Canada would be problematic at best. In other words, I think the judge already made her decision.

 

[human]

How much would a custody battle cost?
I doubt if he wants to waste money in that when he can use money for other things more fun for him

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

How much would a custody battle cost?
I doubt if he wants to waste money in that when he can use money for other things more fun for him

Across an international border? That would be the BIG bucks. He has no money. I wonder how much his father is willing to spend? Being a judge, I'm sure he has a very clear idea of how this will all play out, and I bet he has no illusions about his son. I'm sure he's been paying all the lawyers so far. I wonder if/when he'll pull the plug on the money.

 

[MyBelle]

As it stands now, he should get visitation. The issues with that are that he won't set foot in the US, the children are too young to travel without an adult accompanying them, and I presume they are all in regular therapy (trauma as well as developmental). Would a judge force the kids to suspend therapy for visits to Canada, just because JB refuses to cross the border? Regardless of the court, I could easily see a deal where he gets visitation but must travel to the US due to the unique situation with the children, he proclaims victory, but then never visits because he won't cross the border. And everyone lives happily ever after.

I also presume CC will continue to press her allegations of abuse, and the standard is much lower in civil proceedings.

ETA. I think it also must be recognized that the judge, in allowing the move to the US, certainly was aware that the children's lives would become enmeshed in the US and that, regardless of the result of the criminal case, relocating them back to Canada would be problematic at best. In other words, I think the judge already made her decision.

I disagree. I think in both the U.S. and Canada, cases involving allegations of domestic violence and child abuse, the standard is very high. Bogus claims of abuse are made in attempts to get emergency orders of protection or gain the upper hand in custody disputes and judges don't like it one bit.

This case reminds me of actress Kelly Rutherford and her many attempts over several years to manipulate jurisdiction in her favor. She filed for an order of protection and her attorney made allegations which got her German husband deported. Since he could no longer visit his children, she agreed to a 50/50 custody order which required her to fly to Europe so the children could see their dad. She tried to get full custody in the U.S. because her lawyer's fees and those trips were getting very expensive. The Court ruled against her.

I think the Canadian court is going to order the mother in this case to return the children to Canada so their father can have his parenting time.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

It's a tough call at this time. I think the sticking point might be that she has "temporary custody" and she was allowed to leave the country with the children because of her 5 years captivity. Status quo is a consideration especially with minor children.

Regardless of custody, the children should have access to both parents, so something has to be sorted out for visitation one way or another. I'm not expecting Boyle to be granted full custody, but I do expect that he will be given access and visitation. Someone has to pay to transport the children back and forth.

She only had temporary custody. Now that his case is over, I think her attorneys are advising her to get those kids back to Canada before the dad and his Judge father turn it into an international parental kidnapping.

JMO

 

[JDG]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. There's no way he's going to set foot in the US. Jurisdiction issues I don't think are so cut and dry... The kids are US citizens who have been living in the US for several years now. I'm sure they have relationships with therapists, doctors, teachers, social workers, etc. I don't think a court would decide that uprooting them from a stable environment after the trauma they were born into would be in their best interest.

Of course, a good lawyer could keep an international custody fight going until they are all adults.

I think the children are also Canadian citizens as their father is Canadian. IMHO, he's the last person who should have custody, of any kind, of those children. There was a news clip of him with one of the boys in his parents garden and the way he grabbed the child was just horrific.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

I think the children are also Canadian citizens as their father is Canadian. IMHO, he's the last person who should have custody, of any kind, of those children. There was a news clip of him with one of the boys in his parents garden and the way he grabbed the child was just horrific.

Agree. And it will be interesting to see what the children have told their therapists about life with their father (if that's ever made public).

 

[human]

I cannot understand why anyone thinks he should have custody of the children.

what possible good could he do? Just because someone is a “ father” does not mean he is capable of providing love .

Rather, it sounds as if it would be very rough on the children with his views of humanity.

 

[MyBelle]

Agree. And it will be interesting to see what the children have told their therapists about life with their father (if that's ever made public).

If the children have told their therapists in the U.S. that their father is abusive, an investigation should be opened and the mother should have the therapists testify.

So far, I don't believe any of that has happened.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

I cannot understand why anyone thinks he should have custody of the children.

what possible good could he do? Just because someone is a “ father” does not mean he is capable of providing love .

Rather, it sounds as if it would be very rough on the children with his views of humanity.

That's just the way the law works. Fathers have parental rights. A court isn't going to take them away without solid evidence of abuse.

JMO