Casey & Family Psychological Profile #1

[FLjay]

Amma - I think it has to be more than just abuse. at some point, she failed to develop a conscience or empathy for others. that usually happens when a child fails to bond with the mother. for whatever reason, Casey failed to bond with Cindy as a baby. that thus made her unable to bond with Caylee, or empathize with any of her victims....

Has anyone else noticed this? I have marveled over the lack of photos of Cindy & Casey, or photos of the two of them with Caylee. Have I just missed seeing them? At least, they are not as prominent as other photos are. In the "On the Record" interview (taped 8/_ & replayed Sat 8/9) that showed Casey's bedroom & photos -- there were none that I could see.

I posted this earlier (8/11), but want to mention it here: When Cindy took Greta through the bedrooms in the above-mentioned interview, there was a hospital photo of newborn Caylee with her eyes closed. Cindy said in a rather stern voice, "That's a typical Caylee look. [It's as if she's saying] You'd better behave, she's got her eye on you." How odd!

I can see Cindy saying this to Casey over the past years, either to honestly warn or to threaten Casey (remember her talking about getting custody), and it becoming more of a real problem as Caylee got older and Casey was champing for freedom.

Caylee looks a LOT like Cindy: her eyes, even the shape of her cheek (I know, I know, she has a baby face, but still seems to be there) below her eyes. I do not, I CAN not understand how Cindy is not totally in Casey's face for answers as to where that sweet baby is. Casey is not the only one with a problem.

 

[FLjay]

PEOPLE OF THE LIE

M. Scott Peck, in his bookPeople of the Lie, suggests that truly evil people demonstrate "malignant narcissism", a term coined by Erich Fromm.

...

Dawn Treader -- I'd posted about this before I saw your post, and wanted to credit you with it.

Lacking my copy to refer to, here's a link that gives info on the book from my own google search -- I've only read this page of the website, and post it here only for the info on "People of the Lie": http://ejm.tripod.com//people.htm

Excerpts from the book mentioned on this website include:

Page 75 "Utterly dedicated to preserving their self-image of perfection, they are unceasingly engaged in the effort to maintain the appearance of moral purity. They are acutely sensitive to social norms and what others might think of them. They seem to live lives that are above reproach. The words "image", "appearance" and "outwardly" are crucial to understanding the morality of 'the evil'. While they lack any motivation to be good, they intensely desire to appear good. Their goodness is all on a level of pretense. It is in effect a lie. Actually the lie is designed not so much to deceive others as to deceive themselves. We lie only when we are attempting to cover up something we know to be illicit. At one and the same time 'the evil' are aware of their evil and desperately trying to avoid the awareness. We become evil by attempting to hide from ourselves. The wickedness of 'the evil' is not committed directly, but indirectly as a part of this cover-up process. Evil originates not in the absence of guilt but in the effort to escape it.

It often happens then that 'the evil' may be recognized by its very disguise. Because they are such experts at disguise, it is seldom possible to pinpoint the maliciousness of 'the evil'. The disguise is usually impenetrable."

Page 77 "They are not pain avoiders or lazy people in general. To the contrary, they are likely to exert themselves more than most in their continuing effort to obtain and maintain an image of respectability. They may willingly, even eagerly, undergo great hardships in their search for status. It is only one particular pain they cannot tolerate: the pain of their own conscience, the pain of realization of their own sinfulness and imperfection.

The evil are the last people to ever go to a psychotherapist. The evil hate the light- the light of goodness that shows them up, the light of scrutiny that exposes them, the light of truth that penetrates their deception. "

 

[DAWN TREADER]

:wave: FLjay

No problem - just glad to know others are as interested as I am in this topic! FYI -I'm no expert on narcissism but have done a considerable amount of research on the subject, including reading material from the site listed below. DT

-----------------------

The coherence of the narcissist's dysfunctional and precariously-balanced personality depends on the plausibility of his stories and on their acceptance by his Sources of Narcissistic Supply. The narcissist invests an inordinate time in substantiating his tales, collecting "evidence", defending his version of events, and in re-interpreting reality to fit his scenario. As a result, most narcissists are self-delusional, obstinate, opinionated, and argumentative.

The narcissist's lies are not goal-orientated. This is what makes his constant dishonesty both disconcerting and incomprehensible. The narcissist lies at the drop of a hat, needlessly, and almost ceaselessly. He lies in order to avoid the Grandiosity Gap - when the abyss between fact and (narcissistic) fiction becomes too gaping to ignore.​

The narcissist lies in order to preserve appearances, uphold fantasies, support the tall (and impossible) tales of his False Self and extract Narcissistic Supply from unsuspecting sources, who are not yet on to him. To the narcissist, confabulation is not merely a way of life - but life itself.​

We are all conditioned to let other indulge in pet delusions and get away with white, not too egregious, lies. The narcissist makes use of our socialization. We dare not confront or expose him, despite the outlandishness of his claims, the improbability of his stories, the implausibility of his alleged accomplishments and conquests. We simply turn the other cheek, or meekly avert our eyes, often embarrassed.

Moreover, the narcissist makes clear, from the very beginning, that it is his way or the highway. His aggression - even violent streak - are close to the surface. He may be charming in a first encounter - but even then there are telltale signs of pent-up abuse. His interlocutors sense this impending threat and avoid conflict by acquiescing with the narcissist's fairy tales. Thus he imposes his private universe and virtual reality on his milieu - sometimes with disastrous consequences.​

http://samvak.tripod.com/​

 

[Oakley]

Reply to future_criminologist

I agree, Casey isn't mentally ill. <snipped> I wish I were among the minority who believe she is alive. That would be a miracle and a wonderful thing. My heart breaks for that child.

That's my two cents as far as how Casey thinks.

This is one of the best posts I've read regarding this case. Agree 100%

 

[Oakley]

This is a great thread. Can someone here please render an opinion on the following:

Casey allowed her mother to "drag" her home, report her to the police, make her talk on the phone to the 911 operator. Why didn't she say something smart aleck like she did from jail, including "I'm outta here Mama buh-bye". She just let her mother lead her by the . . . uh . . . nose. Sounds so compliant.

There is just something strange about that scenario to me. I hope someone can shed some light on it for me. Thanks.

In her police interview, Casey states at one point that she is terrified of Cindy finding out (not exact words)

 

[beetrue]

Yeah, I think the standards are very, very different. If I remember from law school (I don't do crim law), not guilty by reason of insanity meant the person did not understand the nature of what they were doing (such as strangling someone but thinking they are squeezing a lemon) or the person did not think what they did was wrong (such as Andrea Yates thinking that if she did not kill her kids, they would not go to heaven, so what she did was right under the eyes of God). Most mentally ill people would not fall under either category. They can be hideously mentally ill, under the table in Court with full blown psychotic hallucinations, but still guilty as sin, as long as their illness did not cause them to not understand what the nature of what they were doing or that it was wrong. It is a VERY hard defense and they have to be able to prove they were legally insane. I don't believe anyone has been deemed not guilty by reason of insanity due to a personality disroder like sociopathology (they do call it anti-social personality disorder now, instead of sociopathic), and I don't think anyone should be able to get by with that kind of defense. These types know exactly what they are doing.
Anyhow, I, like you, am also and have been very interested in the "why" of criminal behavior. It drives me nuts to not understand what creates such monsters. And I've often wondered what would happen if you put these types together on an island or in a cell. Would be interesting!

Actually, putting these people together would only harm us. When I look at past serial killing duos or teams; I shiver to think of these people largely grouping together. Even those who were non-violent sociopathic groups caused and can cause mass harm. ick!

 

[Oakley]

Has anyone else noticed this? I have marveled over the lack of photos of Cindy & Casey, or photos of the two of them with Caylee. Have I just missed seeing them? At least, they are not as prominent as other photos are. In the "On the Record" interview (taped 8/_ & replayed Sat 8/9) that showed Casey's bedroom & photos -- there were none that I could see.

I posted this earlier (8/11), but want to mention it here: When Cindy took Greta through the bedrooms in the above-mentioned interview, there was a hospital photo of newborn Caylee with her eyes closed. Cindy said in a rather stern voice, "That's a typical Caylee look. [It's as if she's saying] You'd better behave, she's got her eye on you." How odd!

I can see Cindy saying this to Casey over the past years, either to honestly warn or to threaten Casey (remember her talking about getting custody), and it becoming more of a real problem as Caylee got older and Casey was champing for freedom.

Caylee looks a LOT like Cindy: her eyes, even the shape of her cheek (I know, I know, she has a baby face, but still seems to be there) below her eyes. I do not, I CAN not understand how Cindy is not totally in Casey's face for answers as to where that sweet baby is. Casey is not the only one with a problem.

On the 20/20 there was a video clip of Casey holding Caylee, who was holding a cupcake, standing near Cindy. Cindy took Caylee's hand and pushed it toward Casey, casing the cake to smush in Casey's face (sort of as a bride and groom would do.) Casey then did the same toward her Mom. It was an interesting exchange.

 

[beetrue]

On the 20/20 there was a video clip of Casey holding Caylee, who was holding a cupcake, standing near Cindy. Cindy took Caylee's hand and pushed it toward Casey, casing the cake to smush in Casey's face (sort of as a bride and groom would do.) Casey then did the same toward her Mom. It was an interesting exchange.

yikes. that is a weird sense of humour. sounds disrespectful.

EDITED: I just saw it. looks innocent to me.

 

[DAWN TREADER]

Personally, I think it's clear that Casey wasn't just lying or telling tall tales - she was living a virtual lie. Remember the emails from her "fake" employer? IIRC, these emails even discussed work shifts, what to wear, etc. That's just one example, I can think of several others.

 

[DAWN TREADER]

Something else ....

According to LP, Casey ordered him out of her house after he made it clear he wasn't interested in the Zanny the Nanny (Zenaida) story.

My way or the highway ....??

DT

 

[packerdog]

My hubby was listening to the radio one day and said that a shrink was on. (this was a long time ago when the Scott Petterson trial was going on) He was talking about sociopaths. He said that he asked these patients many questions and their answers told a lot about them. One question he asked was: there was a girl and her sister whose mother had died and they had a big funeral. The girl found the man of her dreams. Two weeks later the girls sister died, why did she die? Think about this question for awhile. The person that answers like a sociopath would is on my next post.

 

[packerdog]

My hubby was listening to the radio one day and said that a shrink was on. (this was a long time ago when the Scott Petterson trial was going on) He was talking about sociopaths. He said that he asked these patients many questions and their answers told a lot about them. One question he asked was: there was a girl and her sister whose mother had died and they had a big funeral. The girl found the man of her dreams. Two weeks later the girls sister died, why did she die? Think about this question for awhile. The person that answers like a sociopath would is on my next post.

The girl killed her sister so that she could have another funeral and see the man of her dreams again.
Sounds a lot like Casey doesn't it?

 

[sharpar]

I know ....I know but will let you reveal it

these wingnuts do not think like us - they are wired much differently

without empathy or a conscience low has no bottom

 

[Betty Boop]

This is a great thread. Can someone here please render an opinion on the following:

Casey allowed her mother to "drag" her home, report her to the police, make her talk on the phone to the 911 operator. Why didn't she say something smart aleck like she did from jail, including "I'm outta here Mama buh-bye". She just let her mother lead her by the . . . uh . . . nose. Sounds so compliant.

There is just something strange about that scenario to me. I hope someone can shed some light on it for me. Thanks.

In her police interview, Casey states at one point that she is terrified of Cindy finding out (not exact words)

Thanks, Lacey Clementine. I guess Casey develops a certain bravado when bars separate her and Cindy. I wonder what happens with that terror when they are in the same house? Cindy is basically back in control of Casey's life again. The very person that Casey tried to get away from is now her warden.

And we know from Cindy's MySpace statements about the betrayal by her daughter, that when all is said and done, Cindy will pull that same 'ol martyr hook out and say,

"After ALL I've done for you, look what you have done to me."

 

[Brini]

Check out this EXCELLENT op-ed!


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diane-dimond/a-missing-child-a-silent_b_124535.html

 

[Betty Boop]

Check out this EXCELLENT op-ed!


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diane-dimond/a-missing-child-a-silent_b_124535.html

Wow, Brini, that certainly sums it up! Thanks for the link!

 

[DAWN TREADER]

It's a family affair ... it's a family affair ... just can't get that song out of my head for some reason.

 

[Rudolf]

Where does George fit into all of this? I'm wondering what role he played in the family dynamics. My guess is that he might be a narcissist too. Or at least controlling and selfish. If Cindy had an inconsistent, *head in the sand*, personality (one day she was calling the police, the next day defending her daughter, etc. Plus, she was unable to see that Casey would be a reluctant mom.) the effect of a controlling, manipulative father would have overwhelmed a young Casey. She would have learned to manipulate and lie just to have some order in her world.

 

[Oakley]

yikes. that is a weird sense of humour. sounds disrespectful.

EDITED: I just saw it. looks innocent to me.

I've watched this clip a few times. Since Cindy instigated it, IMO it was hostile (in a teasing way.) I am Cindy's age and I can't imagine doing that to my grown daughter. And if I did, she would not be too happy with me even if I did it in jest.

It just seemed a bit aggressive to me. JMO.

 

[curiositycat]

Where does George fit into all of this? I'm wondering what role he played in the family dynamics. My guess is that he might be a narcissist too. Or at least controlling and selfish. If Cindy had an inconsistent, *head in the sand*, personality (one day she was calling the police, the next day defending her daughter, etc. Plus, she was unable to see that Casey would be a reluctant mom.) the effect of a controlling, manipulative father would have overwhelmed a young Casey. She would have learned to manipulate and lie just to have some order in her world.

I agree with this! George always has to look perfect. Perfect hair, ironed shirts and shorts. There are so many dynamics going on in this family! I agree with your assessment! Good stuff!