Casey & Family Psychological Profile #3

[bookworm474]

Wasn't Casey doing 'ok' until she began to live up to, compete, and mirror the standards of her peers? Can't be just the parents.

 

[radio]

Until I know further details about circumstances of her daughter's death, I've yet to be convinced KC is a sociopath. What we do know from research, clinical and behavioral studies is that it is well-established one needn't be born w any particular genetic disorder, birth defect, innate sociopathic neuronal network, or malformed pre-frontal cortex to respond to narcissistic parenting, or a personality disordered home eg, the way in which KC appears to have. JMHUO
arrot:

kiki ---- I am so glad to see someone finally say this!!!! YES!!

 

[Whisperer]

Until I know further details about circumstances of her daughter's death, I've yet to be convinced KC is a sociopath. What we do know from research, clinical and behavioral studies is that it is well-established one needn't be born w any particular genetic disorder, birth defect, innate sociopathic neuronal network, or malformed pre-frontal cortex to respond to narcissistic parenting, or a personality disordered home eg, the way in which KC appears to have. JMHUO
arrot:

I was not aware we needed circumstances of death to determine sociopathy. In fact, to my knowledge most sociopaths do not murder. kc exhibits every symptom of narcissism. She also fills much of the criteria of anti-social behavior, granted her youth behavior is missing to fill out 100%; however, her narcissism is pathological which comes under the umbrella of a sociopath or psychopath.

 

[debs]

Wasn't Casey doing 'ok' until she began to live up to, compete, and mirror the standards of her peers? Can't be just the parents.

For lack of a better analogy, Casey is a sponge who soaked up the personalities, likes and dislikes, mannerisms, lifestyle, dress code, and goals in life of those she had around her. She started partying with college kids and became one in her storyline. Her own personality was never developed beyond what she was WITH someone else, just like she was a "good girl" with Jesse, enough so that his whole family declares they don't recognize this person.

 

[radio]

I was not aware we needed circumstances of death to determine sociopathy. In fact, to my knowledge most sociopaths do not murder. kc exhibits every symptom of narcissism. She also fills much of the criteria of anti-social behavior, granted her youth behavior is missing to fill out 100%; however, her narcissism is pathological which comes under the umbrella of a sociopath or psychopath.

LOL!! Oh, so many kabuki dances over this

 

[kiki the parrot]

Wasn't Casey doing 'ok' until she began to live up to, compete, and mirror the standards of her peers? Can't be just the parents.

You mean until she began (at age 20!) to try to break away, ie finally find an independent identity or separate 'voice' of her own? That is quite typical of the narcissistic parenting cycle so we can't assume everything was just "fine" up until this point. The ensuing trouble which followed had IMO (and per most experts) been in the works for years and doesn't just happen "overnight." JG was useful in reconstructing that transition period (which seems to also coincide w end of their relationship). I have no idea if NPD is the extent of KC's problems or what other coexisting disorders there may be. But I do know defiant acting out is a classic textbook reaction w narcissists after having been formerly compliant as children under a controlling parent's thumb--and that this is often incorrectly perceived as "coming out of nowhere." There is much research describing this but here's an excerpt from concise article summarizing this point. JMHUO

"Often, the children of narcissistic parents learn that their only option in searching for "voice" is to engage in self-destructive behavior... Ironically, in hurting themselves, they sometimes shatter their narcissistic parents' self-deception. "We didn't know they were in such pain. Why didn't they tell us? Where did we go wrong?" By then, of course, the questions are too late."

http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/relationships/grossman/voicewars.html

 

[kiki the parrot]

I was not aware we needed circumstances of death to determine sociopathy. In fact, to my knowledge most sociopaths do not murder. kc exhibits every symptom of narcissism. She also fills much of the criteria of anti-social behavior, granted her youth behavior is missing to fill out 100%; however, her narcissism is pathological which comes under the umbrella of a sociopath or psychopath.

Whisperer I did not say murder was a prerequisite for sociopathy--not even close. I simply said *I* wasn't convinced KC is a sociopath and would need more info--including (at minimum) eg the very telling circumstances surrounding her child's death which *I* believe could be extremely revealing--before even hazarding as much as a guess! I myself have long said I'd observed what *I* suspect are traits of narcissism--which I've also repeatedly said would require an expert to diagnose whether pathological and/or if there are coexisting disorders. In addition *I* have pointed out there are elements of narcissism in all of the major personality disorders. And that *I* am not pretending to dx nor am *I* qualified as an expert. Am merely making observations of what *I* believe is consistent w NPD. JMHUO

 

[kageykaren]

From a retired specialist point of view I would love to see the results of her MMPI test. Her court appointed psychologist is holding some important info we will get at trial. Psychiatry and the law are immeshed together in this case but will not be allowedas a defense for Casey. Thank goodness for society these young women are few and far between. As for narcisstic women I'm sure there are many who haven't crossed over to pathological sociopathic tendencies leading to psychopathy.

 

[Searchfortruth]

Until I know further details about circumstances of her daughter's death, I've yet to be convinced KC is a sociopath. What we do know from research, clinical and behavioral studies is that it is well-established one needn't be born w any particular genetic disorder, birth defect, innate sociopathic neuronal network, or malformed pre-frontal cortex to respond to narcissistic parenting, or a personality disordered home eg, the way in which KC appears to have. JMHUO
arrot:

Very interesting post ! Thank you !

 

[Whisperer]

From a retired specialist point of view I would love to see the results of her MMPI test. Her court appointed psychologist is holding some important info we will get at trial. Psychiatry and the law are immeshed together in this case but will not be allowedas a defense for Casey. Thank goodness for society these young women are few and far between. As for narcisstic women I'm sure there are many who haven't crossed over to pathological sociopathic tendencies leading to psychopathy.

I don't expect very much from the MMPI. I am going to take a stab at this as say her test, at least her first if not both will come up as invalid. She would not be able to answer question with any validity whatsoever. Invalids show up when a client is malingering, dishonest or totally psychotic.

So this leaves the psychologist with giving an opinion based on different tests, if she obliges or on observations, videos and by interviewing her. Corrections medical staff and family interviews may be solicited

 

[kiki the parrot]

From a retired specialist point of view I would love to see the results of her MMPI test. Her court appointed psychologist is holding some important info we will get at trial. Psychiatry and the law are immeshed together in this case but will not be allowedas a defense for Casey. Thank goodness for society these young women are few and far between. As for narcisstic women I'm sure there are many who haven't crossed over to pathological sociopathic tendencies leading to psychopathy.

Yes how *we* too would love to be a fly on the pages of that MMPI! Besides which, she could never use any kind of 'psychological defense' for a crime she has yet to even admit to omg! Like come up off of ZG already!! If there is any chance sticking w this is on JB's advice, we need to order an MMPI on him too!! JMO

 

[kiki the parrot]

I don't expect very much from the MMPI. I am going to take a stab at this as say her test, at least her first if not both will come up as invalid. She would not be able to answer question with any validity whatsoever. Invalids show up when a client is malingering, dishonest or totally psychotic.

So this leaves the psychologist with giving an opinion based on observations of videos and by interviewing and by corrections staff and possibly by family but unlikely.

Which is why I imagine she would not likely benefit from, but presumably only manipulate any therapy or counseling (which she would even agree to participate in). And leaves me to wonder too, hypothetically, how well she would perform on a poly. JMHUO

 

[indicat]

Which is why I imagine she would not likely benefit from, but presumably only manipulate any therapy or counseling which she would be even agree to participate in. And leaves me to wonder too, hypothetically, how well she would perform on a poly. JMHUO

I just got done reading "The Stranger Beside Me" again, it had been years, and the similarities in personality was pretty comparable as far as psyc testing. There is also a similar pic of KC and Ted, along with the one posted of Scott....the three of them share some similar personality traits IMO.

 

[kiki the parrot]

Hi Indicat! The possible scenarios (ranging from premeditated murder to negligence w cover-up which to date I'm personally unable to exclude) are so totally disparate w vastly differing implications that I guess it is just impossible for me to yet form this comparison... she is a piece of work, that's for sure (my official, very expert dx!) JMHUO
arrot:

 

[kageykaren]

Very good Kiki! These test were given upon her first incarceration. The invalid showings actually showed the psychologist newly assigned to KC alot! We on this forumn are now dicussing her malingering dishonst self that we have witnessed since her interviw with her assigned psychologist. I'm feeling those test results are the reason JB & his team are keeping such close tabs on hr while in jail. My opinion is the defense doesn't want anyone aware of her thought process.

 

[indicat]

Hi Indicat! The possible scenarios (ranging from premeditated murder to negligence w cover-up which to date I'm personally unable to exclude) are so totally disparate w vastly differing implications that I guess it is just impossible for me to yet form this comparison... she is a piece of work, that's for sure (my official, very expert dx!) JMHUO
arrot:

I guess what I'm thinking of is their ability to fit into their surroundings, their ability to appear 'normal' if given an evaluation. I certainly don't see "serial killer" in KC but I do see the personality traits. I just can't wrap my head around accident and then cover up. I think I understand her actions if it was murder much better then if it was an unplanned accident and then the way she behaved.

 

[Whisperer]

I just got done reading "The Stranger Beside Me" again, it had been years, and the similarities in personality was pretty comparable as far as psyc testing. There is also a similar pic of KC and Ted, along with the one posted of Scott....the three of them share some similar personality traits IMO.

It is very interesting when you follow the criminals. Same pathologies share the same traits. Ed Kemper and Jeffrey Dahmer were identical. Listening to them speak, you can't tell which one it is, if you didn't see their face. Differences in psychopaths' criminal behavior would likely be related to their intelligence.

 

[Whisperer]

Very good Kiki! These test were given upon her first incarceration. The invalid showings actually showed the psychologist newly assigned to KC alot! We on this forumn are now dicussing her malingering dishonst self that we have witnessed since her interviw with her assigned psychologist. I'm feeling those test results are the reason JB & his team are keeping such close tabs on hr while in jail. My opinion is the defense doesn't want anyone aware of her thought process.

Are you saying they disclosed the results? I am surprised!

 

[aprilshowers]

I have borderline personality disorder, and I wanted to comment on what "I" saw and felt about this paragraph below. What I want to point out will be in bold, and my words will be in red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnTCB
KC: I don’t know what I CANthink anymore

I know this is part of BPD, because without medication, I too, truly feel that I don't know what I CAN think. In other words, those with BPD, go from feeling one thing to another very quickly, we can feel angry, then guilt about that anger, then depression from the guilt, etc. etc. and we're never really sure WHAT we feel, or what we SHOULD feel, because we have NO confidence in ourselves at all, and we have no trust in anyone else.

Many times, this is caused by not having the proper love and care, when we were children. And even though we see that she may have been loved, she was also 'spoiled' and 'coddled', and wasn't given the proper discipline ... that in itself is neglectful, since discipline (done in the right way) portrays love to children, since then they know they are loved, since their parents CARE what they do and don't do, where they are, etc. etc.

So in that sense, BPD starts to develop, because the child has no real sense of being loved and truly cared for, since she can do whatever she wants. Oh, she may enjoy that as she goes along, but truly deeply inside the soul of a child, they WANT and NEED control and discipline, it tells them they are loved.
MOM, just keep saying it BECAUSE IT'S THE TRUTH It’s all we want. OUR FAMILY IS BROKEN.

Here, she is telling her MOM to keep saying it, because this is her way of placing the burden and responsibility on her Mom, so she can come across as the victim ... the child who needs to feel completely loved, since she never truly did as a child, because of the lack of discipline and them allowing her to do whatever she wants.

She then points out that it's the TRUTH ... that our family is broken. Here I see two things she may be meaning. One is that she feels the family IS broken, because of the lack of discipline and rules, etc. and who knows what else she's referring to. Two is that SHE feels broken. Trust me, BPD's DO feel broken, absolutely feeling they have NO idea where they belong in this world, and without the guidance of rules, when they're young, that gives them even MORE of a sense of being lost.

We want to have that fixed.

"I" want to have that fixed, us fixed .. I wish I felt totally loved and cared about, but you always let me do whatever I wanted to, never held me accountable for anything, and all though it was fun at the time, it hurt to know you didn't care enough to stop me. So now ... who am I and what am I .... and what purpose do I fill here on earth?

We know what that means to have our family broken apart by something now. By tragedy. We don’t want this to any longer be a tragedy.

Notice that she uses WE allot? She's actually both talking about herself, and also trying to once again, bring them together as a family, hoping against hope, that she's 'rescued' ... to show she is loved. I truly think she WANTS them to be more forceful ... and firm .. therefore holding her responsible FINALLY for something.

I don’t want to be one of those thousands of parents that, that has to deal with the possibility of never seeing their, their child again. With the potential of knowing that their child’s alive and that they’re with someone else.

The paragraph above? I think that's only for sympathy, empathy, to be felt sorry for ... to get their love and attention .. and to 'play' them into giving her attention. (but it's still about 'love', not surface love, but REAL love, meaning rules, regulations, restrictions, because they CARE about her well being and that she becomes a responsible adult).

The thought of that every day makes me sick.

This can be about any number of things, But trust me, if she's truly BPD, she isn't talking about what she 'appears' to be talking about. BPD's find it VERY hard, if not impossible, to say how they're REALLY feeling, because the moment they do, they let down their sheild of the fear of not being loved and of being abandoned.

So I think here, she may be expressing that SHE makes herself sick, that she feels what many BPD's feel, loathing of themselves, sometimes hating themselves, feeling invisible, no direction in life.

She also may be speaking of the fact that it makes her sick, that it came to this ... that she took her child's life, because she is so FOOKED up.

I know this all may seem crazy to you guys .... and I am NOT saying most BPD's kill their children or anyone for that matter, usually if anyone, they attempt to kill THEMSELVES, but in this case, if a BPD feels SO alone and lost, they may turn to this ... all though I believe that may have been the 'sociopath' side of her.

Also one more thing: Many BPD's go a bit on the wild side, drinking, sex, stealing, etc... some of it is to cover up how they REALLY feel totally empty, void of purpose, and lost. The other part of it is, to show the world that they're ok ... adjusted like everybody else is. They can NOT show the truth, their TRUE feelings of being lost, and of being scared to death of not being loved.

Sorry this was so long, and I'm not saying I'm right in every single thing here, but just thought I'd give you the perspective from the BPD's side.

Also, I'm NOT defending her doing what she did in ANY sense! Just so you know.... but letting you in on the BPD's psyche a bit.

 

[mitzi]

AprilShowers, thank you for that insider's view. You have given me alot to think about. Hugs to you, for the honesty you have given us, in what you feel in your life. :blowkiss: