Cause of Death and Time of Death *MERGED* (Warning: Contains Graphic Content!)

[tlcya]

Perhaps the dismemberment was not necessarily to hide some specific thing but more to hide the fact that Zahra was Zahra. This whole dismemberment thing has been buzzing around in my head buzzing and buzzing. Couldn't make any sense of it> Multiple dump sites, multpiple risk zones of discovery.

What if she was dismembered because IF an entire 10 year old amputee's body were found, wehter skeletal remains or not, it would be pretty obvious it was Zahra.

Whereas, if you dismember the body and then toss the remains all over the countryside, especially in areas where animal bones are common, then IF a one is found, it would be less obvious immediately that it was Zahra. Does that make any sense? Not sure now that I typed it all out.

 

[tlcya]

I now understand why Zahra was not receiving medical care. And why, to our knowledge, they were not receiving any financial aid or food stamps.

If the following is indeed the case

http://charlotte.news14.com/content...ts-show-elisa-baker-may-have-committed-bigamy

then AB was definately no citizen, he was probably here on some sort of guest visa. NOw had their marriage been valid, they could have gotten him his citizenship here if they wanted. Gotta prove up a marriage tho. Can't do that when you are lying to your new hubby about the divorce from the old one.

Perhaps EB's convoluted deception about AY and the marriage/divorce/lying about who AY was thing, prevented her from pursuing many things that could have benefitted little Zahra (including medical card) because she feared having to put things on applications that might lead AB to discover her deception?

I don't know, maybe I am completely off the mark. But I cannot for the life of me figure out why they did not seem to have any medical care for little Z the entire time they were here (outside the racetrack hearing aid event).

ETA this makes me lean a little bit more towards the reason for Zahra's death being lack of seeking medical treatment, be it for illness such as sepsis or after a horrible beating.

 

[Mish]

Has there been any mention of a computer being taken from the house? My train of thought going back to Casey Anthony and the "unusual" computer searches that were found on their household pc...

 

[tlcya]

I have seen no confirmation of computers seized. IIR, LE declined to let us see the search warrant or a list of what was taken. The warrant was sealed wasn't it?

So they probably have computers, I would imagine cel records, texts, online time. Bet they are still working on all that stuff, letting it draw them a picture.

Any techy type people who can tell us, in reall life, how long does that sort of forensics take?

OOPS sorry that is sort of off topic. Maybe we should check and see if there is a technology forensics thread. If there isn't, is there interest in starting one?

 

[WhyaDuck?]

Please stay on topic. If there is not a thread on a topic you wish to discuss, please feel free to start one.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

I have seen no confirmation of computers seized. IIR, LE declined to let us see the search warrant or a list of what was taken. The warrant was sealed wasn't it?

So they probably have computers, I would imagine cel records, texts, online time. Bet they are still working on all that stuff, letting it draw them a picture.

Any techy type people who can tell us, in reall life, how long does that sort of forensics take?

OOPS sorry that is sort of off topic. Maybe we should check and see if there is a technology forensics thread. If there isn't, is there interest in starting one?

I'll try a little bit. I don't think reading the hard drives of any computer taken from these two "unusual" people would have been difficult. Probably no encryption and very minimal virus protection as well. What is going to take the time with this is the shear amount of time they both spent online. Literally hours a day. Having to go through all those chat logs and back-tracking of emails and messages will just take time.

Cell records - they had those pretty quickly. Wonder if their phones has GPS chips and to what extent those devices tracked each phone.

IMHO LE has quite a very distinct picture of their online personas. Whether all the dots have been connected or all the details spelled out - that may take some time.

Also, just MVHO - prepare yourself, this is going to be nastier than it already is.



ETA - sorry duck was already in the process of answering the computer question.

 

[tlcya]

dang it! I SO wanted catch it and add that thought BEFORE it was flagged OT, lol

carp!

 

[tlcya]

trying to find a forensics thread. Always check to see if one already exists before starting a thread. Saves mods and minis the headach

 

[bessie]

Perhaps the dismemberment was not necessarily to hide some specific thing but more to hide the fact that Zahra was Zahra. This whole dismemberment thing has been buzzing around in my head buzzing and buzzing. Couldn't make any sense of it> Multiple dump sites, multpiple risk zones of discovery.

What if she was dismembered because IF an entire 10 year old amputee's body were found, wehter skeletal remains or not, it would be pretty obvious it was Zahra.

Whereas, if you dismember the body and then toss the remains all over the countryside, especially in areas where animal bones are common, then IF a one is found, it would be less obvious immediately that it was Zahra. Does that make any sense? Not sure now that I typed it all out.

It makes perfect sense. The same thoughts keep buzzing around in my head, too. As you say, multiple dump sites increase chances of discovery. Still, they (whoever they happen to be) must know that identification could be made by even a part of a bone. So scattering remains would only delay identification for a short time. IDK. Wish I had the answer.

 

[tehcloser]

I honestly think the reasons behind the dismembering are two fold, one was just to try and destroy evidence of what they had done to her before her death, and the other, well, I think it fits in with their IMVU world. And I don't think I messed up mentioning that because that fact has been in msm. Fingers crossed............lol.

 

[tlcya]

IDK, I think someone thought it worth the risk of multiple dumpsites was minimal compared to the absloute that LE finding the whole body, buried, etc somewhere, no matter how many years down the road, would immeidately be connected with Zahra.

The immediate risk of multpile sites would be greater, but over time would greatly play into the perpetrator's favor as the bones were denuded by nature and scattered, everywhere. Especially if they buried the remains. That would mean some may not ever be dug up, come to surface. Still others would be dragged all over the place by the wildlife. Wildlife sticks to the wild, less chance of discovery in the wild areas.

ALL MOO.

but I really think that was the whole story behind the dismemberment. Sheer practicality. Hmmm, wonder who is the practical one in that relationship?

Food for thought.

ETA this is why I tend to think that dismemberment may not have been intended to hide COD but to aid in deception of indentification.

Think about it, if LE hadn't gotten the places from EB, where would we be right now as far as evidence?

That is one big, wild, wooded, hilly, hollary state.

They could have gotten away with it. If only it hadn't been for the fire/kidnapping. Still cannot figure our what the heck was the thought process there. That was the plan?

 

[tehcloser]

I think in their drugged state of mind it seemed like a plan to them......

 

[Kamille]

I keep reading about "multiple" dump sites and dismemberment but it appears that LE have only found remains at two locations, even though EB supposedly directed them to three. And at one of the two locations they only found one bone...in the same vicinity as where they found the prosthetic. Taking into account that the bone could have been moved by animals, at the moment we are only aware of two locations where remains were found. Is it possible that this dismemberment was strictly the removal of the one leg with the prosthetic that would positively identify Zahra? And could the third site that EB directed them to be the Indian Grave Rd site that they searched twice, one in secrecy without the media finding out about it? Where LE claimed that nothing was found. Was this third site just a red herring EB threw in there?

 

[ynotdivein]

I keep reading about "multiple" dump sites and dismemberment but it appears that LE have only found remains at two locations, even though EB supposedly directed them to three. And at one of the two locations they only found one bone...in the same vicinity as where they found the prosthetic. Taking into account that the bone could have been moved by animals, at the moment we are only aware of two locations where remains were found. Is it possible that this dismemberment was strictly the removal of the one leg with the prosthetic that would positively identify Zahra? And could the third site that EB directed them to be the Indian Grave Rd site that they searched twice, one in secrecy without the media finding out about it? Where LE claimed that nothing was found. Was this third site just a red herring EB threw in there?

RBBM... Given that the gel insert and the as-yet unspecified bone were found in close proximity hidden under brush but not buried, and the other remains that we know of so far were found not only 5 miles away but buried.... I don't think this is a "moved by animals" case.

I do not think that the bone found with the gel insert from the prosthesis was a bone from either of Zahra's legs.... But that is IMO only.

 

[tlcya]

I keep reading about "multiple" dump sites and dismemberment but it appears that LE have only found remains at two locations, even though EB supposedly directed them to three. And at one of the two locations they only found one bone...in the same vicinity as where they found the prosthetic. Taking into account that the bone could have been moved by animals, at the moment we are only aware of two locations where remains were found. Is it possible that this dismemberment was strictly the removal of the one leg with the prosthetic that would positively identify Zahra? And could the third site that EB directed them to be the Indian Grave Rd site that they searched twice, one in secrecy without the media finding out about it? Where LE claimed that nothing was found. Was this third site just a red herring EB threw in there?

I too think the Graves Road site may have been a lead from EB, but they can't find whatever she says was tossed there. Speculation!

How does the dismemberment theory you describe leave you feeling about Cause of Death?

 

[Kamille]

RBBM... Given that the gel insert and the as-yet unspecified bone were found in close proximity hidden under brush but not buried, and the other remains that we know of so far were found not only 5 miles away but buried.... I don't think this is a "moved by animals" case.

I do not think that the bone found with the gel insert from the prosthesis was a bone from either of Zahra's legs.... But that is IMO only.

And yet I see it as a distinct possibility that the bone found in the vicinity of the prosthetic which was described as a large bone and not a fragment, was a femur bone. And in that situation, it is entirely possible that it was originally with the prosthetic and moved by an animal(s).

I do agree that the buried bones do not fall into the "moved by animals" scenario and were disposed of separately.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

I too think the Graves Road site may have been a lead from EB, but they can't find whatever she says was tossed there. Speculation!

How does the dismemberment theory you describe leave you feeling about Cause of Death?

I do not believe that any dismemberment was accomplished prior to Zahra's death and that it is not a cause.

I'm really struggling with the cause of death in this case. With EB's history of abuse, it's entirely possible that she went too far and stuck Zahra in a way that killed her. The dismemberment in that scenario, other than to delay the identity of remains, doesn't fit though.

But if she really was "found dead" and infection was present in the amputated limb and that is a possible cause, it might explain why someone felt it needed to be disposed of separately. But you'd think it would have been buried as well so that's where it appears that there is more than one person responsible for the disposal. Each person had their task and handled it differently.

If her leg was dismembered with the prosthetic on however, it kind of negates the possibility that Zahra was "found dead" from illness. If she were that sick and in bed, she would not have been wearing the prosthetic at the time of her death and there would have been no need to dispose of it. Especially to fit in with the kidnapped from her bed story.

Just random thoughts based on what we've heard so far.

MOO

 

[tlcya]

I do not believe that any dismemberment was accomplished prior to Zahra's death and that it is not a cause.

I'm really struggling with the cause of death in this case. With EB's history of abuse, it's entirely possible that she went too far and stuck Zahra in a way that killed her. The dismemberment in that scenario, other than to delay the identity of remains, doesn't fit though.

But if she really was "found dead" and infection was present in the amputated limb and that is a possible cause, it might explain why someone felt it needed to be disposed of separately. But you'd think it would have been buried as well so that's where it appears that there is more than one person responsible for the disposal. Each person had their task and handled it differently.

If her leg was dismembered with the prosthetic on however, it kind of negates the possibility that Zahra was "found dead" from illness. If she were that sick and in bed, she would not have been wearing the prosthetic at the time of her death and there would have been no need to dispose of it. Especially to fit in with the kidnapped from her bed story.

Just random thoughts based on what we've heard so far.

MOO

B & U BM

Question: Do we know that prosthetic and bone were not buried or have we just surmised it?

If that is true and gel and bone were discovered above ground with no signs of having been buried, that would certain suggest two different people disposing of them, each with their own task and would also explain the dogs hits on both vehicle.

 

[Harmony 2]

I disagree that dismemberment was done to destroy evidence of what had been done to Zahra before her death. What could be worse than dismemberment? I also do not think it was to hide the fact that it was Zahra. The prosthetic leg was left out in the open in a bush and not buried. That would have been a very distinct linkage to Zahra.

IMO the dismemberment was symbolic of tearing apart and obliterating the glorious radiant persona of a beautiful being because of jealousy. This points to a rage filled psychopath. My opinion may change as more information is revealed but currently I believe that person was EB.

 

[Kamille]

B & U BM

Question: Do we know that prosthetic and bone were not buried or have we just surmised it?

If that is true and gel and bone were discovered above ground with no signs of having been buried, that would certain suggest two different people disposing of them, each with their own task and would also explain the dogs hits on both vehicle.

The prosthetic was not buried as per the police chief in a press conference...

The leg was discovered in a "brushy area," but was not buried, off a road in Caldwell County, N.C., late Tuesday afternoon, Hickory Police Chief Tom Adkins said in a news conference.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/zahra-baker-case-prosthetic-leg-discovered/story?id=11986193

To my knowledge the bone was found during a grid search of the area after the prosthetic was found so it's unlikely it was buried either but I'm not sure if that's ever been established.

MOO