Cause of Death and Time of Death *MERGED* (Warning: Contains Graphic Content!)

[docwho3]

I do make this note as to Elisa's type of abuse towards Zahra:

Although I have seen posts speculating that she poisoned Zahra to make her sick I
have never seen any news report indicating any such thing.

All the news report accounts of actual abuse of Zahra indicate violence.
I read of a picture of Zahra sporting a black eye. More importantly I read of accounts from
people saying they saw her beat Zahra for little or no provocation.

'. . . She was beaten almost every time I was over there for just -- just the smallest things.
Lisa would get mad and take it out on Zahra -- things the kid didn't deserve. . . .'
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/12/earlyshow/main6949915.shtml

'. . . The case has generated numerous reports from Baker family members and friends that
Elisa Baker often beat Zahra and kept her locked in a bedroom for most of the day. . . ."
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...-for-zahra-baker/story-e6frf7l6-1225939455790

'. . . Those who know Elisa say she has a tendency to lie, has a bad temper
and beat the little girl. . . .'
http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-na...e-search-pond-for-missing-north-carolina-girl

From news reports it appears that evidence indicates Elisa is most likely the main person
who killed Zahra. The reports indicate Elisa was violent towards Zahra but none said anything
about her having been poisoned.

Therefore it seems likely that Zahra was the victim of violence rather than any
poison or illness or infection.

Note: Adam's demeanor towards his child was cold but not seen to be violent & that was
why I believe Zahra's death was not the result of violence by him.

'. . . Bentley responded, "That's the crazy thing. I never saw Adam spank her,
punish her, do anything. But he would sit there and watch Elisa do it to his child.
He would just sit there and not say anything. . . .'
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/12/earlyshow/main6949915.shtml

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Thank you DocWho3 for putting those statements together, and yes, it does seem most likely that she died from injuries sustained after a beating. What was Adam thinking to simply sit by and watch? What is going on there...

 

[tlcya]

I think that whatever the COD, little Zahra was dead before ED found out where she was. EB and AB were probably just going to keep going on with their lives in hopes that no one asked. And if someone asked, the most logical answer would have been that she went back to Australia with her mom or something along that lines (in a hospital far away for treatment, etc). When they found out that ED was looking for her, they panicked. KB was reportedly (by ED's account) the one who found out that ED knew where Zahra was. KB may have contacted AB and then wanted to speak to Zahra, etc., on top of ED now knowing where they were also. Not being able to ever use the story of Zahra going back to ED (or worse - ED must have "taken" her), AB/EB realized that they needed a another story and came up with the ransom note, etc.

I wholeheartedly do not believe that ED's search was the reason for Zahra's death but rather the reason for the cover-up.

(not sure if this is the right thread - just didn't know where to put it)

:clap: ITA with your theory. ED's finding out where Z was did not prompt her death but was the proverbial straw that caused the frantic, really stupid coverup.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

:clap: ITA with your theory. ED's finding out where Z was did not prompt her death but was the proverbial straw that caused the frantic, really stupid coverup.

tl - here's a "scenerio" or "theory" that might play in -


What if Zahra had overheard AB and EB talking about ED fiinding them? Zahra would have questions and quite a bit of them too. Both AB and EB wouldn't want to deal with her and "her questions" so they struck out at her? My Lord, I truly don't hope that is what happened for ED's sake. I can't imagine having to live knowing what happened to Zahra was either directly or indirectly related to her mom having found her.

 

[tlcya]

also very possible wise. But the whole Z was already dead and disposed of feels more right to me. Absolutely nothing I can link to back it up. Just my own feel.

Like you, I really hope ED's location of AB and Z had nothing to do with this sweet child's death.

 

[epiphany]

I do make this note as to Elisa's type of abuse towards Zahra:

Although I have seen posts speculating that she poisoned Zahra to make her sick I
have never seen any news report indicating any such thing.

All the news report accounts of actual abuse of Zahra indicate violence.
I read of a picture of Zahra sporting a black eye. More importantly I read of accounts from
people saying they saw her beat Zahra for little or no provocation.

'. . . She was beaten almost every time I was over there for just -- just the smallest things.
Lisa would get mad and take it out on Zahra -- things the kid didn't deserve. . . .'
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/12/earlyshow/main6949915.shtml

'. . . The case has generated numerous reports from Baker family members and friends that
Elisa Baker often beat Zahra and kept her locked in a bedroom for most of the day. . . ."
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...-for-zahra-baker/story-e6frf7l6-1225939455790

'. . . Those who know Elisa say she has a tendency to lie, has a bad temper
and beat the little girl. . . .'
http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-na...e-search-pond-for-missing-north-carolina-girl

From news reports it appears that evidence indicates Elisa is most likely the main person
who killed Zahra. The reports indicate Elisa was violent towards Zahra but none said anything
about her having been poisoned.

Therefore it seems likely that Zahra was the victim of violence rather than any
poison or illness or infection.

Note: Adam's demeanor towards his child was cold but not seen to be violent & that was
why I believe Zahra's death was not the result of violence by him.

'. . . Bentley responded, "That's the crazy thing. I never saw Adam spank her,
punish her, do anything. But he would sit there and watch Elisa do it to his child.
He would just sit there and not say anything. . . .'
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/12/earlyshow/main6949915.shtml

May I take the liberty of adding more?

SNIPPED: Rotenberry and Green said they noticed bruises on Zahra. But when they asked the girl about it she wouldn't say anything. When they asked her parents what happened, Green said: "It was always, Zahra fell down. Zahra fell out of bed. It was always, Zahra had done something."

SNIPPED: Libby Brown, a spokeswoman for the Caldwell County Schools, told the Observer that staff had visited the girl's home and sought help for Zahra from an "outside partner" because staff was concerned. But she wouldn't elaborate, citing confidentiality laws.

SNIPPED: ...family friend Lindsay Parker told the crowd that family members had reported suspected abuse of Zahra to the Department of Social Services on three occasions.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/10/17/1767517/missing-girls-case-highlights.html

 

[panthera]

also very possible wise. But the whole Z was already dead and disposed of feels more right to me. Absolutely nothing I can link to back it up. Just my own feel.

Like you, I really hope ED's location of AB and Z had nothing to do with this sweet child's death.

For ED's sake, and not feeling anything she did contributed to Zahra's death, I hope you are right. I can't help but think that AB/EB knew she was getting close, however. MOO

 

[epiphany]

IMO, EB is a child abuser. I'm confident, we'll learn more as the case progresses.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39617740/ns/us_news-life

The stepmother also had a short temper, Rotenberry said.

Rotenberry said about six months ago she noticed that Elisa Baker's hand was swollen. "She told me that she was trying to spank Zahra, but hit her on her prosthetic leg," she said. "When Adam asked her about the injury, she said she fell and hurt her hand. She didn't want him to know. She knew he would be mad."

Another former neighbor, Brandy Stapleton, 22, of Lenoir, said that Elisa Baker told her the same story about how she injured her hand. "She wasn't the person everyone thought she was."

 

[Lera213]

IMO, EB is a child abuser. I'm confident, we'll learn more as the case progresses.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39617740/ns/us_news-life

The stepmother also had a short temper, Rotenberry said.

Rotenberry said about six months ago she noticed that Elisa Baker's hand was swollen. "She told me that she was trying to spank Zahra, but hit her on her prosthetic leg," she said. "When Adam asked her about the injury, she said she fell and hurt her hand. She didn't want him to know. She knew he would be mad."

Another former neighbor, Brandy Stapleton, 22, of Lenoir, said that Elisa Baker told her the same story about how she injured her hand. "She wasn't the person everyone thought she was."

LOL on the part where EB lied and said she wrote songs for Daughtry

 

[wenwe4]

EB was indeed reported to inflict corporal punishment on Zahra. AB was reported to have not intervened in EB's disciplining of Zahra. If EB was indeed using drugs (ie: meth) which could potentially cause what I call "speed meanies". I mention the drugs as EB's own Father mentioned it, as well as how much weight she had lost over the past 2 yrs. I also think that the mattress holds valuable clues, as does the wall, floor, sink drains, bed rails, etc. I have to say, I never remember a case in which the bed rails were taken - seems quite telling.

 

[Reannan]

I hate to even post this, but here goes. LE would not have cut out the wall behind where Zahra's bed was and the floor beside it unless there was solid reason to do so. They have a lot of evidence to sift thru, and they don't need busy work. I bet the luminol showed it to be of value as evidence. That means something horrible happend there. An "accident" does not happen in a child's bed. I am sticking by pre-meditation with malice. As far as Zahra's bio-Mom finding her 3 DAYS before she was reported missing... I think that is a spiritual coincidence and little Zahra, who was already in Heaven, was contacting her Mom who she had probably always wanted to meet, and for the first time in her immortal life had the opportunity to reach out to.

 

[panthera]

I hate to even post this, but here goes. LE would not have cut out the wall behind where Zahra's bed was and the floor beside it unless there was solid reason to do so. They have a lot of evidence to sift thru, and they don't need busy work. I bet the luminol showed it to be of value as evidence. That means something horrible happend there. An "accident" does not happen in a child's bed. I am sticking by pre-meditation with malice. As far as Zahra's bio-Mom finding her 3 DAYS before she was reported missing... I think that is a spiritual coincidence and little Zahra, who was already in Heaven, was contacting her Mom who she had probably always wanted to meet, and for the first time in her immortal life had the opportunity to reach out to.

I agree regarding the forensic evidence, and thank you for the beautiful explanation of the timing coincidence with ED. MOO

 

[Meagain]

IMO - It IS possible the chemo, etc. she's undergone took a toll on her heart. Weakened it. People have been known to be affected by chemo and I personally know them. Just look at Zahra's hearing.

I do think it's possible she had a virus and it's possible she might've had a heart attack or something.

Unfortunately, they had a reason to hide the death/body. Either they were paranoid/crazy, or one or both did bad things or neglected.

 

[passionflower]

Murder

 

[watcher9]

WS Thank you for all of your insights into possible causes of Zahra's death. This thread is a wealth of ideas and information that has been collected.

When I heard LE had taken a portion of the sheetrock from Zahra's bedroom, I felt like she had been brutally beaten causing blood splatters on the wall. Reading back it would seem that body fluids of any sort could have been splattered.

There was speculation one time that her room had been painted, apparently to try and cover up the evidence. Weren't there paintbrushes collected in the house search?

One thought I wanted to add - if she had sepsis, would the gangrene smell have penetrated into the wall? What about decomposition odor if she had died in her bed? Would the taking of the wall also give the possibility of a smell analysis, such as in the Caylee case?

 

[panthera]

WS Thank you for all of your insights into possible causes of Zahra's death. This thread is a wealth of ideas and information that has been collected.

When I heard LE had taken a portion of the sheetrock from Zahra's bedroom, I felt like she had been brutally beaten causing blood splatters on the wall. Reading back it would seem that body fluids of any sort could have been splattered.

There was speculation one time that her room had been painted, apparently to try and cover up the evidence. Weren't there paintbrushes collected in the house search?

One thought I wanted to add - if she had sepsis, would the gangrene smell have penetrated into the wall? What about decomposition odor if she had died in her bed? Would the taking of the wall also give the possibility of a smell analysis, such as in the Caylee case?

How quickly could sepsis or gangrene set in and be fatal? :waitasec: She was seen in the furniture store approximately two weeks before being reported missing and there haven't been any reports that anything seemed abnormal. Just curious. MOO

 

[watcher9]

How quickly could sepsis or gangrene set in and be fatal? :waitasec: She was seen in the furniture store approximately two weeks before being reported missing and there haven't been any reports that anything seemed abnormal. Just curious. MOO

To clarify further after a surgery a nurse accidently put the wrong size of tensor bandage on her stump do to a surgery on her hip. Within 5 hours the infection had spread throughout her system, she was immediately taken to surgery for an additional amputation unrelated to the hip surgery simply from the tightness of the tensor bandage. It then required a further debriment and a week of specialized bath treatments. This can happen slowly or very quickly but it will happen when the prothesis is not fitting correctly and made to wear it......:banghead:

Panthera.
I don't know myself but without treatment I would think it could be pretty fast on a child.

I brought down Allusonz's quote describing how fast an infection can spread.
I don't know though if an infection can mean sepsis or gangrene or neither.

 

[panthera]

Panthera.
I don't know myself but without treatment I would think it could be pretty fast on a child.

I brought down Allusonz's quote describing how fast an infection can spread.
I don't know though if an infection can mean sepsis or gangrene or neither.

Thanks. My brain must be tired as I had read what Allusonz posted but didn't make the connection. It does help however in trying to figure out if this is a possibility.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

How quickly could sepsis or gangrene set in and be fatal? :waitasec: She was seen in the furniture store approximately two weeks before being reported missing and there haven't been any reports that anything seemed abnormal. Just curious. MOO

panthera - a matter of days (if even). I posted in the general threads about a friend who got it (from clipping one of her toenails too short and walking around barefoot). Within 2 days she was in the hospital and they were talking about amputating her whole leg. Thank God that didn't happen but I was shocked (and so was she) that something could set in that fast.

If Zahra had gotten blisters or raw - maybe even open sores on her stump and the bacteria entered there - very close to her femural artery and I would imagine it would be very quick. Symptoms are fever, rapid breathing, rapid heartbeat - could be mistaken for flu. If that happened AB and EB wouldn't have even realized that was what was wrong.

 

[writer7]

I do make this note as to Elisa's type of abuse towards Zahra:

Although I have seen posts speculating that she poisoned Zahra to make her sick I
have never seen any news report indicating any such thing.

All the news report accounts of actual abuse of Zahra indicate violence.
I read of a picture of Zahra sporting a black eye. More importantly I read of accounts from
people saying they saw her beat Zahra for little or no provocation.

'. . . She was beaten almost every time I was over there for just -- just the smallest things.
Lisa would get mad and take it out on Zahra -- things the kid didn't deserve. . . .'
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/12/earlyshow/main6949915.shtml

'. . . The case has generated numerous reports from Baker family members and friends that
Elisa Baker often beat Zahra and kept her locked in a bedroom for most of the day. . . ."
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...-for-zahra-baker/story-e6frf7l6-1225939455790

'. . . Those who know Elisa say she has a tendency to lie, has a bad temper
and beat the little girl. . . .'
http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-na...e-search-pond-for-missing-north-carolina-girl

From news reports it appears that evidence indicates Elisa is most likely the main person
who killed Zahra. The reports indicate Elisa was violent towards Zahra but none said anything
about her having been poisoned.

Therefore it seems likely that Zahra was the victim of violence rather than any
poison or illness or infection.

Note: Adam's demeanor towards his child was cold but not seen to be violent & that was
why I believe Zahra's death was not the result of violence by him.

'. . . Bentley responded, "That's the crazy thing. I never saw Adam spank her,
punish her, do anything. But he would sit there and watch Elisa do it to his child.
He would just sit there and not say anything. . . .'
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/12/earlyshow/main6949915.shtml

I'm curious enough about a possible poisoning that I would check for poisons, is all. It's because of her having Munchausen's by Proxy with her own children. That can be a very dangerous condition for the kids, especially if she wished the child away

But the wall and floor seem to tell a very violent end. That goes back to the abuse, most probably. There could have been traditional physical abuse and Munchausen's kind of abuse both, imho.

If LE took that large a section of wall after Luminoling it, I'm thinking EB and AB will have a very hard time saying they found her dead in her bed. That's for sure.