Cause of Death and Time of Death *MERGED* (Warning: Contains Graphic Content!)

[WhyaDuck?]

Regarding # 1: I think LE photographs would suffice. No need to remove that portion of drywall. What evidence can you obtain from empty space (i.e; hole)

Regarding #3: Same as above.

That leaves me looking at #2, and I can't see any earthly way that cancer/poison/neglect would cause bodily fluids to be on a wall.

JMO

If Zahra was killed by being slammed against the wall, I should think it would be possible that LE would remove the drywall for testing, *after* the photos. Maybe not the whole thing, but I could see where WenWe is coming from, I think.

ETA: And I apologize for not knowing this (modding gives me little chance to really consider the cases themselves, sadly), but are we certain LE removed that section of the wall? Perhaps someone else did, before, in order to cover evidence of the above? (Just a thought.)

 

[TxLady2]

I do not buy the story that Zahra's cancer returned and they were too scared to report it. I do believe she could have died from some virus or other illness that went untreated, but I have trouble believing a father could be that oblivious and not know something was wrong long before she succumbed to the illness.
Not having the money for a burial is no excuse for not reporting a death or for hiding/disposing a body. Most funeral homes will work with you, let you pay it off over time. There is always the option of having a graveside service only, which cuts the cost down some. There is also the option of cremation, which would certainly not be any worse than dismembering.
My stepson died unexpectedly 15 or so years ago, and neither his mom & stepdad, or his dad & me had the money for his burial. The county picked up the costs, and we all pitched in to pay it back so he could get a tombstone, the county would not cover that cost. But he had a decent funeral and burial, and the debt to the county was paid off in less than a year. He has a very nice tombstone, too. There are ALWAYS alternatives, if you have the decency to inquire. I can't believe EB or AB did not know this.

 

[tlcya]

good morning sleuths. I have finally caught up on what I missed after retiring last night and have come to the conclusion I am glad I left when I did. Kept me outta trouble :angel:

I sincerely hope that the remains found thus far (both locations) will be confirmed as Z's and further will offer ample evidence as to COD. I really want this thing tied up in a nice little bow come trial time.

 

[tlcya]

If Zahra was killed by being slammed against the wall, I should think it would be possible that LE would remove the drywall for testing, *after* the photos. Maybe not the whole thing, but I could see where WenWe is coming from, I think.

ETA: And I apologize for not knowing this (modding gives me little chance to really consider the cases themselves, sadly), but are we certain LE removed that section of the wall? Perhaps someone else did, before, in order to cover evidence of the above? (Just a thought.)

We have reports from local news affiliates during the search of Baker home stating that drywall was being removed from the home (pretty sure, may have to go looking for links). We DO NOT know if that drywall was removed in order to access areas that were inaccessible (as may have been the case in sections of flooring that were also removed during search) or whether drywall and/or flooring was removed in order to preserve some sort of evidence on it as theorized.

ETA http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5961468/zahra_baker_case_prosthetic_leg_found.html?cat=17

Police have also found two mattresses in a landfill and they are currently removing items from the Baker family home including the drywall from the walls in Zahra's bedroom for evidence.

NOTE: there are other links available, this is just the first one I pulled.

 

[epiphany]

I believe COD was a rage-fueled beating. Investigators took the drywall with them because it is likely going to be used for DNA evidence in the case. Believe they would have left it there, had they not found some preliminary evidence on it:

SNIPPED...investigators emerged, clutching a section of drywall from the room about 4 feet across, splotched pink on one side and gray on the other. They also brought out other evidence, concealed in brown paper bags larger than their torsos.

http://www2.hickoryrecord.com/news/...-return-baker-house-seize-evidence-ar-502595/

 

[wenwe4]

Thank You Duck and Epiph!
There is something that is vital to this case in the drywall from Zahra's room - I am convinced. We know the 2 sink drains were taken but do we know if the bathtub drain was taken? Seems to me that would prove to be of vital importance as well. At this point it is difficult to determine what the COD is and the manner of disposal related items. I still think that bringing the info that we know to be taken is a way for us to determine what LE feels was vital to the evidence for eventual prosecution.

I agree that if only a hole in the wall - it would be only needing to take pictures and not destroy the house. The hole in the ceiling in the kitchen does not appear to be "removed" but rather something fell through (probably related to the leak in the roof making that area of the kitchen ceiling spongy. Could Zahra have fallen through the ceiling? (since we have had reports she may have been living in the attic of the one previous address).

there has to be dna and blood spatter or bodily fluids on the wall, floor and bed in her room.

Why is there no furniture in this house? no kitchen table - no sofa, no Computer? Who took all of that ? When? Why was it related to Zahra's COD? (ie: bodily fluids on those items as well?)

 

[tlcya]

wenwe, you could try checking out the photos inside the Baker home link showing what it looked like after LE was done with search. I am pretty sure there is a photo of the bathroom. If I recall, there was a toilet stool but sink had been completely removed and there was no tub visible in shots.

Gonna have to go back and look at those now I am unsure if I recall correctly.

ETA I was wrong. The tub remains, but it appears the wall (in linen closet) has been removed in order to access the tub's plumbing fixtures. Photo 16 of 18

http://www.wsoctv.com/slideshow/news/25649131/detail.html

 

[panthera]

Thank You Duck and Epiph!
There is something that is vital to this case in the drywall from Zahra's room - I am convinced. We know the 2 sink drains were taken but do we know if the bathtub drain was taken? Seems to me that would prove to be of vital importance as well. At this point it is difficult to determine what the COD is and the manner of disposal related items. I still think that bringing the info that we know to be taken is a way for us to determine what LE feels was vital to the evidence for eventual prosecution.

I agree that if only a hole in the wall - it would be only needing to take pictures and not destroy the house. The hole in the ceiling in the kitchen does not appear to be "removed" but rather something fell through (probably related to the leak in the roof making that area of the kitchen ceiling spongy. Could Zahra have fallen through the ceiling? (since we have had reports she may have been living in the attic of the one previous address).

there has to be dna and blood spatter or bodily fluids on the wall, floor and bed in her room.

Why is there no furniture in this house? no kitchen table - no sofa, no Computer? Who took all of that ? When? Why was it related to Zahra's COD? (ie: bodily fluids on those items as well?)

As to the furniture, it had to be somewhere in the house that media didn't have access to or photograph. Otherwise what was the purpose of the large U-Haul at the house last weekend? I agree regarding the drywall in the bedroom and believe someone painted over, in an attempt to cover up evidence, what LE revealed with luminol. MOO

 

[tlcya]

I have a feeling the furnishings were only moved out of the way (perhaps into backyard or other rooms) while search was ongoing. We saw shots of Z's BR (empty of all furnishings) and the bathroom (minus a sink). Living room (apparently still furnished after search) and I think a couple of shots of SOME furnishings in Adult Baker BR.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

If Zahra was killed by being slammed against the wall, I should think it would be possible that LE would remove the drywall for testing, *after* the photos. Maybe not the whole thing, but I could see where WenWe is coming from, I think.

ETA: And I apologize for not knowing this (modding gives me little chance to really consider the cases themselves, sadly), but are we certain LE removed that section of the wall? Perhaps someone else did, before, in order to cover evidence of the above? (Just a thought.)

Well, I suppose we can't be absolutely positive that LE removed those sections of wall. We can't be absolutely positive that they also cut the hole in her bedroom floor. BUT, I did see LE enter the home with saws and axes, and I did see LE removing 2 paper evidence bags with something in them that was exactly the same shape and dimensions as those sections of removed wall. In fact, several of us commented on those pictures, saying that it looked like they were removing drywall...and this was before we had access to the photo's of the inside of the house. So...I'm comfortable making the assumption that the portions of wall and floor were removed by LE. But, of course, that's only my opinion.

(I don't have a link to those pictures handy, but they can be easily found in Sherlock Homey's photo's).

 

[WhyaDuck?]

Well, I suppose we can't be absolutely positive that LE removed those sections of wall. We can't be absolutely positive that they also cut the hole in her bedroom floor. BUT, I did see LE enter the home with saws and axes, and I did see LE removing 2 paper evidence bags with something in them that was exactly the same shape and dimensions as those sections of removed wall. In fact, several of us commented on those pictures, saying that it looked like they were removing drywall...and this was before we had access to the photo's of the inside of the house. So...I'm comfortable making the assumption that the portions of wall and floor were removed by LE. But, of course, that's only my opinion.

(I don't have a link to those pictures handy, but they can be easily found in Sherlock Homey's photo's).

I was only asking because I truly didn't know. I was not making that argument.

Thank you for answering.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I was only asking because I truly didn't know. I was not making that argument.

Thank you for answering.

No no, I understood you were just looking for clarification, Duck. No worries. It was a good question, I thought. It forced me to take a second look at why I'm so convinced that LE removed the drywall. Re-evaluation and review is ALWAYS a good thing.

ETA: And you know, actually it IS assumption. Logical assumption, imo, but still assumption.

 

[tlcya]

just for clarity. I am taking part in discussion about drywall, flooring and furnishings left or not left in the Baker home because it goes directly to whether those items where removed etc because they may have given LE a belief or theory on COD.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

just for clarity. I am taking part in discussion about drywall, flooring and furnishings left or not left in the Baker home because it goes directly to whether those items where removed etc because they may have given LE a belief or theory on COD.

Same here, TL.

So let's take a look at that. Set aside possible blood evidence being on the wall, what other reasons might LE have had for removing it? Bearing in mind the dimensions of the removed section of wall, and the facts we already know about the case.

ETA: I'm stumped. At least wenwe came up with something...I can't come up with anything at all.

 

[DLT88]

ETA I was wrong. The tub remains, but it appears the wall (in linen closet) has been removed in order to access the tub's plumbing fixtures. Photo 16 of 18

http://www.wsoctv.com/slideshow/news/25649131/detail.html

Do we know if they went below the house to get the plumbing from underneath that would have come directly from the tub?

 

[Beagle]

To clarify further after a surgery a nurse accidently put the wrong size of tensor bandage on her stump do to a surgery on her hip. Within 5 hours the infection had spread throughout her system, she was immediately taken to surgery for an additional amputation unrelated to the hip surgery simply from the tightness of the tensor bandage. It then required a further debriment and a week of specialized bath treatments. This can happen slowly or very quickly but it will happen when the prothesis is not fitting correctly and made to wear it......:banghead:

1 This would certainly be one possibility as we know that she was seen healthy on 25 September.

2 She was abused and accidentally killed from the injury.

3 She was intentionally killed.
a) because she had become a nuisance in their eyes
b) some sort of bizarre ritual

Just some points to ponder.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Okay, I finally got one!

What if LE saw evidence of wipe marks on the wall and that's why they took out that section? But then...why would the wall have been wiped in the first place if there wasn't blood? That's pretty much the same thing, isn't it?

I give up.

 

[epiphany]

I'm not sure where the wall of the linen closet is removed in photo 16/18. Can you describe location in photo for me? TIA

http://www.wsoctv.com/slideshow/news/25649131/detail.html

 

[Linda7NJ]

I believe COD was a rage-fueled beating. Investigators took the drywall with them because it is likely going to be used for DNA evidence in the case. Believe they would have left it there, had they not found some preliminary evidence on it:

SNIPPED...investigators emerged, clutching a section of drywall from the room about 4 feet across, splotched pink on one side and gray on the other. They also brought out other evidence, concealed in brown paper bags larger than their torsos.

http://www2.hickoryrecord.com/news/...-return-baker-house-seize-evidence-ar-502595/

It's my opinion, but LE take EVERYTHING that could be possible evidence, it doesn't mean that it actually is.

 

[Beagle]

It's my opinion, but LE take EVERYTHING that could be possible evidence, it doesn't mean that it actually is.

I agree with this point, not all evidence is immediately visible. If they take everything that could contain evidence they can test it then rule it in or out of the case.