Cause of Death and Time of Death *MERGED* (Warning: Contains Graphic Content!)

[writer7]

BBM
I thought so too,but it could also have been from the bathroom wall also. JMO

Since they took the entire section of the wall in the bedroom I thought the scraping probley came from a different place.

Oh! The dismemberment could cause tissue on walls, too, couldn't it? Shoot I was hoping that there was definitely going to be proof that it wasn't an accident. I want the responsible party/parties to face tons of proof.

I'm still leaning toward the bedroom wall and floor showing what happened before dismemberment. And I hope everyone involved left a smoking gun!

 

[Kathaboo K]

Welcome to WS Kathaboo! There are many threads that discuss this but her log in names usually had the 666 reference. You can search EB's internet activity on these threads and there are quite a few comments regarding her "gothfairy fantasy" stuff. There are some people who believe EB may have caused Zahra's death as a sadistic sort of statement for the 666 reference - although to my knowlege it is just speculation.

Thankyou for the welcome and useful information Wenwe4,the more I read on this case the more upset I get,boggles my mind that evil of this caliber exists.

 

[Reannan]

Thankyou for the welcome and useful information Wenwe4,the more I read on this case the more upset I get,boggles my mind that evil of this caliber exists.

Welcome to WS's Kathaboo...... this is a heavy case to enter into. We care deeply here, and we seek answers and justice. Sometimes, both of them are hard to find. Fresh perspectives are always welcome.

 

[Starwynn]

This is not therapy for wearing a prosthetic its cruelty. There is no way that an above knee or disartic amputation which is classed as an above knee will ever run or walk like a child with 2 legs; even with physiotherapy my daughter has gone through the gait is quite noticable.

The walk is more like a limp, and the run is like how Terry Fox ran it is like a very fast skip hop. For some reason EB seemed to feel that she should be able to walk run like children with 2 real legs. Impossible!!

I was going to say that I don't bet there is a doctor in the world who would recommend running up and down a hill in a prosthesis that isn't designed as an athletic device, but something to WALK with.

 

[Starwynn]

BBM
I thought so too,but it could also have been from the bathroom wall also. JMO

Since they took the entire section of the wall in the bedroom I thought the scraping probley came from a different place.

I was thinking that probably the majority of tissue scrapings came from the bathroom, particular the tile portion where obviously the Bakers tried to paint over the tile with latex. Derp. Scrapings would be more likely there as they didn't take wall sections, and the walls are mostly non-porous.

 

[Starwynn]

Welcome to WS Kathaboo! There are many threads that discuss this but her log in names usually had the 666 reference. You can search EB's internet activity on these threads and there are quite a few comments regarding her "gothfairy fantasy" stuff. There are some people who believe EB may have caused Zahra's death as a sadistic sort of statement for the 666 reference - although to my knowlege it is just speculation.

Additionally, her password to at least one of the online sites was "666". So she had a thing for it at the least.

 

[Starwynn]

Oh! The dismemberment could cause tissue on walls, too, couldn't it? Shoot I was hoping that there was definitely going to be proof that it wasn't an accident. I want the responsible party/parties to face tons of proof.

I'm still leaning toward the bedroom wall and floor showing what happened before dismemberment. And I hope everyone involved left a smoking gun!

Tissue on the wall and pattern of blood splatters (forgive me for saying all this) can show the manner of injury during life, whether it was during life or after she was dead, and then the manner of dismemberment. I suspect, particularly in regards to AB's job and experience/accessibility to power tools, that they are really going to want to nail down exactly what tissues were found where, and use those blood splatter experts that they called in to tell what exactly went on in the bedroom, bathroom, etc.

It seems to me that Zahra's room was very hastily painted; you can see the pink dripping down on the boards at the bottom of the wall. The bathroom was also done very hastily, as was the kitchen, which still makes me wonder if the Bakers didn't paint that tile to try to cover detectability of blood that they had cleaned up.

I only noticed today that some of the more recent warrants literally refer to the probability of EB being "a suspect" in the murder of Zahra. (See the documents from Nov. 18th where they request saliva/blood samples from EB for that purpose - even under force if necessary). I think this is the first time I personally have seen anyone saying it that concisely.

Incidentally, determining the type of blood splatter in the bedroom (and I suspect on the floor beneath the bed, the big piece of floor they took) can show whether poor Zahra died of a hemorrhage (possible if they're still talking about possibly sexual assault), or of something more active, or if she was already gone when the blood ended up on the walls.

Again please pardon the gruesome things I've talked about. I want so badly for them to cover all bases, and I've been wracking my brain trying to figure out what the answers might be when we finally get some.

Starwynn (who is new here)

p.s. Sorry for the repeat posts... I am just catching up.

 

[sherryk]

Will they ever be able to determine a cause of death being that the body is dismembered.

Why the dismemberment... to go to the trouble of dismemberment with all the evidence it would leave behind.. they really seemed to want to hide the manner of death. They could of left the body in tact and disposed of it far, far away. What were they so despartly trying to hide with the dismemberment... the acutal cause of death so no one could say for certain therefore making it difficult to charge anyone? Dismembering the body they were desperate it seems to at all cost not ever let there be a cause for death established...did they not have a clue that LE would be all over that home to look for evidence? The mess left behind from a dismemberment.. all the painting and cleaning in the world could not hide it.

The two men or the one that is suspected of raping her.. what would be the chances that they check the home and a matress is outside? The reason being that the man urinated on matress.. that is a lame reason... If I had an accident in bed I would not throw it away I would clean it..Especially being that these people seemed not to be the most weathy people in the world..buy a new matress.. EB and the men who may have raped her. what are the chances.... however if a child was raped and bled on a bed I would certainly want to get rid of it.. but why was the matress out the day the police went to question? Why not before that day? Why not take the matress to a dumpster?

I kind of believe the rape allegation. Even if from a third party.. it can not be discounted.. the matress, the one guy questioned and the other one can not be found the last I heard.

I strongly think that EB took Zhara there to be abused. Her statement that they "didnt really kill her" that could mean they didnt kill her.. they or she only took her to be raped in trade for drugs or somthing to that extent and things went wrong.

EB lifestyle, AB ignoring the abuse, the child reportly possibe in attack of previous home, the reports to cps, the keeping her from her mom.. and drug use and just plain odd and disturbing things that EB was into.. put them together and it all was a tragedy waiting to happen but nothing I have ever heard of is so gruesome.

When and if the truth comes out I suspect that we may even be more heartbroken. At this point just when we think we heard it all somthing more horrific comes out.. there is no telling what acutally happened and why. I pray that the peices will fit together. If there is an arrest it is a slim chance that we will not know details until there is a trial.

This case could haunt us and tug at our emotions for years.

 

[Kathaboo K]

Welcome to WS's Kathaboo...... this is a heavy case to enter into. We care deeply here, and we seek answers and justice. Sometimes, both of them are hard to find. Fresh perspectives are always welcome.

Thankyou Reannan for the warm welcome as well,I can tell that I am amongst some very deeply caring people here.This case is so heartbreaking to me as are all the cases where children are the victums.May who ever did this to Zahra be punished to the most severest of punishments,in this world and the next,this little girl stole my heart,the only solace
that I can feel so far is that she is no longer being tortured,she had such a miserable short life,upsets me so so much.

 

[wenwe4]

Tissue on the wall and pattern of blood splatters (forgive me for saying all this) can show the manner of injury during life, whether it was during life or after she was dead, and then the manner of dismemberment. I suspect, particularly in regards to AB's job and experience/accessibility to power tools, that they are really going to want to nail down exactly what tissues were found where, and use those blood splatter experts that they called in to tell what exactly went on in the bedroom, bathroom, etc.

It seems to me that Zahra's room was very hastily painted; you can see the pink dripping down on the boards at the bottom of the wall. The bathroom was also done very hastily, as was the kitchen, which still makes me wonder if the Bakers didn't paint that tile to try to cover detectability of blood that they had cleaned up.

I only noticed today that some of the more recent warrants literally refer to the probability of EB being "a suspect" in the murder of Zahra. (See the documents from Nov. 18th where they request saliva/blood samples from EB for that purpose - even under force if necessary). I think this is the first time I personally have seen anyone saying it that concisely.

Incidentally, determining the type of blood splatter in the bedroom (and I suspect on the floor beneath the bed, the big piece of floor they took) can show whether poor Zahra died of a hemorrhage (possible if they're still talking about possibly sexual assault), or of something more active, or if she was already gone when the blood ended up on the walls.

Again please pardon the gruesome things I've talked about. I want so badly for them to cover all bases, and I've been wracking my brain trying to figure out what the answers might be when we finally get some.

Starwynn (who is new here)

p.s. Sorry for the repeat posts... I am just catching up.

Starwynn,
Welcome to WS! We love hearing new points of view and theorizing here. You have brought up some very good points. I agree that LE would probably not take the tile from the bathroom - as it would probably not stay intact for a forensic review in the lab (although they may have ways of stabilizing it). But it is non-porous and all genetic material would just sit on top of the tiles and not be absorbed like drywall.

I am not sure if the painting was done by the B's or if the landlord just rented the house with this type of painting. Zahra's bedroom was painted (much like all the rage in the '90's with a sponge type painting).

I am intrigued by the mention of the door jamb being taken, as I don't remember even noticing that in the pictures. If it was Zahra's bedroom door jamb - then I think there was blood and/or tissue on it. Possibly from moving her body from the bedroom to the bathroom.

It looks as if the bathroom flooring (black wood patterned planks) were being removed before all of this took place. I mention that as there are numerous planks in the backyard on the ground that LE did not take with them.

I believe the dismemberment was finished in the bathroom, but something that involved blood and tissue was all over that bedroom.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Starwynn,
Welcome to WS! We love hearing new points of view and theorizing here. You have brought up some very good points. I agree that LE would probably not take the tile from the bathroom - as it would probably not stay intact for a forensic review in the lab (although they may have ways of stabilizing it). But it is non-porous and all genetic material would just sit on top of the tiles and not be absorbed like drywall.

I am not sure if the painting was done by the B's or if the landlord just rented the house with this type of painting. Zahra's bedroom was painted (much like all the rage in the '90's with a sponge type painting).

I am intrigued by the mention of the door jamb being taken, as I don't remember even noticing that in the pictures. If it was Zahra's bedroom door jamb - then I think there was blood and/or tissue on it. Possibly from moving her body from the bedroom to the bathroom.

It looks as if the bathroom flooring (black wood patterned planks) were being removed before all of this took place. I mention that as there are numerous planks in the backyard on the ground that LE did not take with them.

I believe the dismemberment was finished in the bathroom, but something that involved blood and tissue was all over that bedroom.

BBM

The warrant listed a cutting from a door frame.

http://www.filedropper.com/2121stavenw-searchwarrant10-29-10

Look at the pics of the kitchen door.

 

[wenwe4]

BBM

I believe the warrant listed a cutting from a door frame. Look at the pics of the kitchen door.

Thank you for clearing that up for me!

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Thank you for clearing that up for me!

It's hard to say if this section of doorframe that was removed came from the kitchen. If you look at the pictures, you can clearly see that the door frame has been pulled away from the wall, so I think it's at least reasonable to assume the cut section MIGHT have come from this door frame. On the other hand, we don't have any photos of the bedroom doorframe, or the bathroom door frame either, IIRC. So, it's also entirely possible the cut section could have come from one of those frames.

Clear as mud, eh?

 

[wenwe4]

OK, so let's assume the doorframe is part of the kitchen door frame. If so, they took the kitchen sink traps, possibly some of the ceiling (although that doesn't look as cleanly cut to me as the other areas in the house they obviously cut) in the kitchen, and part of the door frame.

Bathroom shows tub trap and sink and trap missing and although we see most of the floor missing there remains quite a few of those boards in the backyard after LE left.

There have been numerous reports that the "dismemberment occurred in the bathroom" and that makes the most sense to me. If we leave the bathroom evidence for the dismemberment - could we be looking at COD happening in the kitchen and/or her bedroom?

The kitchen sink, flooring (although it is not listed in the warrants), ceiling (not listed in warrants that I remember), and door frame (possibly from kitchen or bedroom I would assume). If Kitchen sink was used for cleaning after dismemberment (ie: washing down walls, mopping, handwashing, etc), it could be possible that the door frame from the kitchen to the (sideyard?) was the way they transported the dismembered body out of the home, thus leaving some evidence on the doorframe on their way out?

That would leave the unexplained hole in the kitchen ceiling (I think something fell through it vs LE cutting it out), flooring and wall in Zahra's bedroom, bed, bedding, bed frame and any furniture that might have been in her room. BTW, looking at s ome old video clips yesterday and saw pics of the new rental home that AB and his Mother were living. Out front of that residence was what appeared to be a headboard for a single bed. Thought that was odd, since he and EB had a waterbed and the only other bedroom in the house on 21st was Zahra's. Where did this headboard come from? Did someone they know give them a single mattress with a headboard to replace Zahra's old one?

The closet appeared relatively undisturbed after LE cleared the scene - which tells me the door may have been closed to the closet or at least no dna or forensic evidence was near that area.

What COD could involve wall sections, floor sections, and ceiling sections from the kitchen? (I am just trying to work backwards from what we know at this time)

 

[DLT88]

This is not therapy for wearing a prosthetic its cruelty. There is no way that an above knee or disartic amputation which is classed as an above knee will ever run or walk like a child with 2 legs; even with physiotherapy my daughter has gone through the gait is quite noticable.

The walk is more like a limp, and the run is like how Terry Fox ran it is like a very fast skip hop. For some reason EB seemed to feel that she should be able to walk run like children with 2 real legs. Impossible!!

Don't know if anyone remembers this daytime court show called "An Eye for an Eye". Anyway, I would like to see EB sentenced to having one of her legs chopped off above the knee. Then get her a prosthesis and force her to run like she made Zahra run. I'll be the sores alone would bring EB to the ground. THAT is what she deserves.

 

[sherryk]

OK, so let's assume the doorframe is part of the kitchen door frame. If so, they took the kitchen sink traps, possibly some of the ceiling (although that doesn't look as cleanly cut to me as the other areas in the house they obviously cut) in the kitchen, and part of the door frame.

Bathroom shows tub trap and sink and trap missing and although we see most of the floor missing there remains quite a few of those boards in the backyard after LE left.

There have been numerous reports that the "dismemberment occurred in the bathroom" and that makes the most sense to me. If we leave the bathroom evidence for the dismemberment - could we be looking at COD happening in the kitchen and/or her bedroom?

The kitchen sink, flooring (although it is not listed in the warrants), ceiling (not listed in warrants that I remember), and door frame (possibly from kitchen or bedroom I would assume). If Kitchen sink was used for cleaning after dismemberment (ie: washing down walls, mopping, handwashing, etc), it could be possible that the door frame from the kitchen to the (sideyard?) was the way they transported the dismembered body out of the home, thus leaving some evidence on the doorframe on their way out?

That would leave the unexplained hole in the kitchen ceiling (I think something fell through it vs LE cutting it out), flooring and wall in Zahra's bedroom, bed, bedding, bed frame and any furniture that might have been in her room. BTW, looking at s ome old video clips yesterday and saw pics of the new rental home that AB and his Mother were living. Out front of that residence was what appeared to be a headboard for a single bed. Thought that was odd, since he and EB had a waterbed and the only other bedroom in the house on 21st was Zahra's. Where did this headboard come from? Did someone they know give them a single mattress with a headboard to replace Zahra's old one?

The closet appeared relatively undisturbed after LE cleared the scene - which tells me the door may have been closed to the closet or at least no dna or forensic evidence was near that area.

What COD could involve wall sections, floor sections, and ceiling sections from the kitchen? (I am just trying to work backwards from what we know at this time)

To dismember a body it is not a clean cut as to just let it drain down the bathtub drain. There would be parts of the body that fall off the bone.
I may be incorrect but I always thought that they found a bone.. I always wondered what happened to any parts depending on if they dismembered the entire body or just leg and arms...
what I am getting at I have asked before and I dont think anyone knows but I wonder if their kitchen sink had a garbage disposal in it. My garbage disposal can take almost anything and grind it to peices espeically soft foods that would compase perhaps to tissue/body organs?

Just a thought. I just cant comprehend how someone can dismember a body and not have a huge mess other than just blood and some tissue.

 

[bessie]

To dismember a body it is not a clean cut as to just let it drain down the bathtub drain. There would be parts of the body that fall off the bone.
I may be incorrect but I always thought that they found a bone.. I always wondered what happened to any parts depending on if they dismembered the entire body or just leg and arms...
what I am getting at I have asked before and I dont think anyone knows but I wonder if their kitchen sink had a garbage disposal in it. My garbage disposal can take almost anything and grind it to peices espeically soft foods that would compase perhaps to tissue/body organs?

Just a thought. I just cant comprehend how someone can dismember a body and not have a huge mess other than just blood and some tissue.

In the photos of the house search, an investigator was pictured carrying out what some of us thought might be a garbage disposal. I'll try to find the picture again, but it might take awhile. Anyway, a garbage disposal would hold evidence.

I think it was tlcox who made the comparison between dismembering a human body and cutting up a chicken, which can make quite a mess. So I'm with you. I can't imagine severing body parts and without having the components spread from one end of the house to the other.

Here's something I've been thinking about for awhile. Suppose Zahra was deceased for a week or two before the dismemberment. They could've concealed her body temporarily before the final disposal. Most fluids would be gone, eliminating some of the "mess". I can't stand thinking about it, but it has been done in other cases.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

OK, so let's assume the doorframe is part of the kitchen door frame. If so, they took the kitchen sink traps, possibly some of the ceiling (although that doesn't look as cleanly cut to me as the other areas in the house they obviously cut) in the kitchen, and part of the door frame.

Bathroom shows tub trap and sink and trap missing and although we see most of the floor missing there remains quite a few of those boards in the backyard after LE left.

There have been numerous reports that the "dismemberment occurred in the bathroom" and that makes the most sense to me. If we leave the bathroom evidence for the dismemberment - could we be looking at COD happening in the kitchen and/or her bedroom?

The kitchen sink, flooring (although it is not listed in the warrants), ceiling (not listed in warrants that I remember), and door frame (possibly from kitchen or bedroom I would assume). If Kitchen sink was used for cleaning after dismemberment (ie: washing down walls, mopping, handwashing, etc), it could be possible that the door frame from the kitchen to the (sideyard?) was the way they transported the dismembered body out of the home, thus leaving some evidence on the doorframe on their way out?

That would leave the unexplained hole in the kitchen ceiling (I think something fell through it vs LE cutting it out), flooring and wall in Zahra's bedroom, bed, bedding, bed frame and any furniture that might have been in her room. BTW, looking at s ome old video clips yesterday and saw pics of the new rental home that AB and his Mother were living. Out front of that residence was what appeared to be a headboard for a single bed. Thought that was odd, since he and EB had a waterbed and the only other bedroom in the house on 21st was Zahra's. Where did this headboard come from? Did someone they know give them a single mattress with a headboard to replace Zahra's old one?

The closet appeared relatively undisturbed after LE cleared the scene - which tells me the door may have been closed to the closet or at least no dna or forensic evidence was near that area.

What COD could involve wall sections, floor sections, and ceiling sections from the kitchen? (I am just trying to work backwards from what we know at this time)

BBM

I noticed that too, and thought it odd. But, then I thought perhaps beds would be needed at the new apt. so maybe they bought used furniture? :waitasec:

 

[Allusonz]

I'm with this too and the "what he did after was horrifying". I wonder if the "he" means one of the men in the alleged rape and not AB.

"what he did after was horrifying"

This is one part of that statement that has always perplexed me ...

Who is the "he" EF is referring to

 

[Money Girl]

"what he did after was horrifying"

This is one part of that statement that has always perplexed me ...

Who is the "he" EF is referring to

She was referring to AB.