Christmas Morning Picture of Burke and JB...

[DeeDee249]

Didn't I read that JBR's hair was found in the suitcase under the window?

This is graphic and disturbing: Possible but not plausible. The body would begin to decompose soon, even in winter. Fluids leak. Odors are strong. Huge blisters form on extremeties and exsanguination begins.This can occur within several hours in an unrefrigerated corpse. And things like bodies in suitcases turn up at inconvenient times. There'd be skeletal remains even years after the death, and especially with a corpse in a suitcase, even if submerged in water.
I can't see them wanting to take her along as baggage. If the body turned up in the Charlevoix area, that would surely point to them. And tossing her from the plane would require the pilot to be involved, as well as the fact that the suitcase would shatter on impact. It'd be very obvious that she was dropped from a plane, and again, it'd point right to them.

 

[Ames]

Didn't I read that JBR's hair was found in the suitcase under the window?

This is graphic and disturbing: Possible but not plausible. The body would begin to decompose soon, even in winter. Fluids leak. Odors are strong. Huge blisters form on extremeties and exsanguination begins.This can occur within several hours in an unrefrigerated corpse. And things like bodies in suitcases turn up at inconvenient times. There'd be skeletal remains even years after the death, and especially with a corpse in a suitcase, even if submerged in water.
I can't see them wanting to take her along as baggage. If the body turned up in the Charlevoix area, that would surely point to them. And tossing her from the plane would require the pilot to be involved, as well as the fact that the suitcase would shatter on impact. It'd be very obvious that she was dropped from a plane, and again, it'd point right to them.

John was a pilot....he could have piloted the plane, and dropped the suitcase into Lake Michigan.

 

[BOESP]

Yeah, you have a valid point there. That would have made sense...they had to get out of that HOUSE!!!

I wonder why they didn't go with the plan to put the body in the suitcase...they may have been afraid that they would have been searched. If they had of done that, and JB's body had never been found...I don't believe that they would be the suspects that they are today. OH YEAH..and if Patsy hadn't of written that long, stupid, rambling RN.

I think tension was getting to John and he decided that finding the body might pan out better. The house was full by then and Arndt gave him a golden-egg opportunity.

Some have said Patsy couldn't have written that note because she would have been too upset. To me, looking at that shaky handwriting, and seeing that rambling nonsense written in the note suggests someone was in a panic and just writing without thinking clearly. The writer tried too hard to set-up the scene and set-up suspects. The writer didn't know that kidnappers do just the opposite -- they write as little as possible and certainly nothing that would point the finger at themselves. Kidnappers don't leave notes either unless they've actually kidnapped someone.

 

[Ames]

I think tension was getting to John and he decided that finding the body might pan out better. The house was full by then and Arndt gave him a golden-egg opportunity.

Some have said Patsy couldn't have written that note because she would have been too upset. To me, looking at that shaky handwriting, and seeing that rambling nonsense written in the note suggests someone was in a panic and just writing without thinking clearly. The writer tried too hard to set-up the scene and set-up suspects. The writer didn't know that kidnappers do just the opposite -- they write as little as possible and certainly nothing that would point the finger at themselves. Kidnappers don't leave notes either unless they've actually kidnapped someone.

JB's case is the ONLY CASE in history, that has a ransom note...AND the body...in the same place.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yes, he was. But they had a pilot hired. If he'd cancelled him, I am sure that pilot would have been suspicious when news of the "kidnapping" surfaced in Boulder. That would have been a risky plan. Even if JR flew the plane, the pilot would be on board. This was a small plane, but it still may fly too high to open a door/window. I may be mistaken here, but I think I read that JR wasn't doing much flying at that time, I don't remember the reason, but that's why he had a regular pilot.
Even though I believe the Rs killed their daughter, I feel they woudn't have disposed of her body this way, or even removed her from the house and hid her outside.
Whatever you think about the Rs, they were not insane psychopaths. I don't think they were depraved enough to get rid of the body in ANY way. Their decision to stage the crime and leave her in the home to be "discovered" after LE were on the scene DOES fit with parents who killed their child in the home in a rage or accidental killing.
They WANTED that little body in a pageant dress and tiara and small white coffin! It was her final "appearance", after all.

 

[Ames]

Yes, he was. But they had a pilot hired. If he'd cancelled him, I am sure that pilot would have been suspicious when news of the "kidnapping" surfaced in Boulder. That would have been a risky plan. Even if JR flew the plane, the pilot would be on board. This was a small plane, but it still may fly too high to open a door/window. I may be mistaken here, but I think I read that JR wasn't doing much flying at that time, I don't remember the reason, but that's why he had a regular pilot.
Even though I believe the Rs killed their daughter, I feel they woudn't have disposed of her body this way, or even removed her from the house and hid her outside.
Whatever you think about the Rs, they were not insane psychopaths. I don't think they were depraved enough to get rid of the body in ANY way. Their decision to stage the crime and leave her in the home to be "discovered" after LE were on the scene DOES fit with parents who killed their child in the home in a rage or accidental killing.
They WANTED that little body in a pageant dress and tiara and small white coffin! It was her final "appearance", after all.

True...

And the putting her in the suitcase was only a fleeting thought, for me. I had at one time thought that this could have been plan A....BUT...it wouldn't have fit with the RN....the "monitoring"....etc. As I have said...I agree with you, I think that they left her in the basement, and called over their friends..to fit with the RN's threat of ...."if you talk to so much as a dog, your daughter will be beheaded"......

I agree with your reasoning too....her "final appearance"....it had to be JUST PERFECT.

 

[BOESP]

... Whatever you think about the Rs, they were not insane psychopaths. I don't think they were depraved enough to get rid of the body in ANY way. Their decision to stage the crime and leave her in the home to be "discovered" after LE were on the scene DOES fit with parents who killed their child in the home in a rage or accidental killing.
They WANTED that little body in a pageant dress and tiara and small white coffin! It was her final "appearance", after all.

I think you are probably correct DeeDee. I just like to talk out all the possibilities and hear other opinions. Sometimes new ideas emerge, but your scenario makes the most sense. What I don't understand is why they risked writing that rambling ransom note. I would have thought John was more astute than that. That note is one nagging thing that makes me wonder if John did not become involved until after he read the note. He was too smart to make that kind of mistake by writing a long note or at least allowing Patsy to write such a tome. Or, I suppose he was smart enough since it worked!

 

[Ames]

I think you are probably correct DeeDee. I just like to talk out all the possibilities and hear other opinions. Sometimes new ideas emerge, but your scenario makes the most sense. What I don't understand is why they risked writing that rambling ransom note. I would have thought John was more astute than that. That note is one nagging thing that makes me wonder if John did not become involved until after he read the note. He was too smart to make that kind of mistake. Or, I suppose he was smart enough since it worked!

Here's what I think...that Patsy wrote that note...John probably dictated to her what to write....she wrote it...and while John was finishing up the staging, she added MORE to it. He was probably pissed when he saw it, but realized that time was running out, and there wasn't enough time to re-write the thing...so he just let it go...and hoped for the best. It apparently worked.

 

[DeeDee249]

I think PR (the "journalist") thought it was a PERFECT ransom note!

 

[JMO8778]

I can only speculate, but I suspect had they taken JonBenet to the emergency room they were afraid of the questions that would be asked. If so, it's strange they couldn't think up a story for an ER team yet they could plan a far-fetched kidnap/ransom scheme. It always makes me wonder who they were protecting and why. I believe they thought she was either already dead or dying and that taking her to the hospital would not save JonBenet, but that's just my opinion.

Sometimes I wonder if it's being too nice to consider it all just an accident...Darlie stabbed her 2 boys...she murdered them,no doubt.she wanted them dead.
IMO,I'm not so sure it was an accident with JB..from the way that head bash looks,I get the feeling that Patsy killed her on purpose,for a specific reason,and only she may have known the real reason.I wonder if she put that pillow over her head that had blood on it,and hit her with the flashlight through it.that would explain the blood,and perhaps the lack of a laceration as well.and maybe even Patsy asking if there was blood on the drapes (from blood spatter).

 

[JMO8778]

Here's what I think...that Patsy wrote that note...John probably dictated to her what to write....she wrote it...and while John was finishing up the staging, she added MORE to it. He was probably pissed when he saw it, but realized that time was running out, and there wasn't enough time to re-write the thing...so he just let it go...and hoped for the best. It aparently worked.

good thought,she didn't even have time to fix her mistakes (the crossed out words).I think that indicates time was running out when it was written.

 

[JMO8778]

What I don't understand is why they risked writing that rambling ransom note. I would have thought John was more astute than that. That note is one nagging thing that makes me wonder if John did not become involved until after he read the note. He was too smart to make that kind of mistake by writing a long note or at least allowing Patsy to write such a tome. Or, I suppose he was smart enough since it worked!

they needed it to be that long to point to the AG ppl he was trying to frame,IMO.JR was just as desperate as Patsy was.I think that says something about how much he was involved,the least being incest,IMO.

 

[JMO8778]

s

I have never thought of that before. If she was unconscious, from the blow to the head, before the garotte (which I believe is the sequence)....then of course her eyes would have been closed. (Unless other posters know of cases where the eyes remain OPEN during unconsciousness).. Wonder why John felt the need to mention that??

I was watching Unsolved Mysteries not too long ago,and there was a man who was apparently killed very quickly (his wife was waiting for him in the car while he went inside the house),and when she went to look for him,she said she found him with his eyes open,and a look of terror on his face...as if his face had frozen that way upon death.So I'm guessing that in cases of sudden death,the eyes can remain open.Although that doesn't explain why JR said that,as it seems JB didn't die quickly.The only thing that occurs to me is that maybe she woke up at some point bf the garroting,although not fully,but perhaps enough to scream,since there was one heard.And then she was strangled.

 

[BOESP]

Sometimes I wonder if it's being too nice to consider it all just an accident...Darlie stabbed her 2 boys...she murdered them,no doubt.she wanted them dead.
IMO,I'm not so sure it was an accident with JB..from the way that head bash looks,I get the feeling that Patsy killed her on purpose,for a specific reason,and only she may have known the real reason.I wonder if she put that pillow over her head that had blood on it,and hit her with the flashlight through it.that would explain the blood,and perhaps the lack of a laceration as well.and maybe even Patsy asking if there was blood on the drapes (from blood spatter).

I've considered the non-accident theory too. It could be possible but I don't think so unless Patsy lost it and went beserk. I can't see Patsy doing that but then I didn't know her personally.

My take on the head wound, based on the autopsy and photos, doesn't agree with just one direct bash to the head. I started a thread here on the head wound a good while back if anybody cares about my head wound theory. :innocent:

I still think it was accidental and Patsy was involved but I can't settle on exactly what I think happened. Based on Burke's statement that JonBenet walked upstairs after they arrived home from the Whites makes me tend to think it happened on the second floor. I can see Patsy pushing JonBenet or jerking her around but I can't see the head blow as being purposeful. I believe what she said about "We didn't mean for this to happen" or whatever it was she said.

I wish Boulder would release all the evidence to the public domain. :slap:

 

[BOESP]

they needed it to be that long to point to the AG ppl he was trying to frame,IMO.JR was just as desperate as Patsy was.I think that says something about how much he was involved,the least being incest,IMO.

I'm still on the fence concerning the incest and leaning toward John not being involved in that. John was into extramarital dalliances and that suggests to me he wasn't interested in little girls. Pedophiles usually have a very low self-esteem, and have little useful skills for interacting with adult women. Of course, there are always exceptions to the guidelines but I just don't think John was guilty of incest -- he doesn't fit the profile for that. Also, the trauma described in the autopsy doesn't suggest pedophile abuse by an adult male -- I don't want to get graphic but damage to little girls who are sexually abused by adult males leave little or no doubt about what was going on. In JonBenet's case, the experts seem to agree something was happening but couldn't settle on exactly what.

Phewww, I'm getting long-winded .... :crazy:

 

[JMO8778]

I brought this up on another board, that shall remain nameless...and they ripped me to shreds. I too...at one time...thought that MAYBE....just maybe...John had intended on putting her body in the suitcase, and disposing of it in Lake Michigan. Its not THAT far fetched of an idea. Other posters questioned me concerning...how would they explain JB's absence to Burke? I am sure that they didn't think that far ahead...and when they DID...they nixed that idea.

I sometimes wonder if the comment in the RN about denying her remains possibly meant they were going to keep her hidden in the house,for then, anyway..and decide what to do later.so if her remains are 'denied' then there is no reason to further search the house if the KN's don't call..I'm sure JR knew a preliminary search would be done,but perhaps he was trying to circumvent a further,more thorough one from taking place after no call came? And so they call everyone in the phone book,and the KN 'saw' this,and killed JB,thus 'denying' her remains (even though she was hidden in the house).I think JR got too afraid to go through with this though.
I do think his comments about looking into the walk-in fridge are suspicious...I think he was trying to account for his fresh prints there..so maybe they thought of putting her there,but quickly nixed the idea.

 

[JMO8778]

I'm still on the fence concerning the incest and leaning toward John not being involved in that. John was into extramarital dalliances and that suggests to me he wasn't interested in little girls. Pedophiles usually have a very low self-esteem, and have little useful skills for interacting with adult women. Of course, there are always exceptions to the guidelines but I just don't think John was guilty of incest -- he doesn't fit the profile for that. Also, the trauma described in the autopsy doesn't suggest pedophile abuse by an adult male -- I don't want to get graphic but damage to little girls who are sexually abused by adult males leave little or no doubt about what was going on. In JonBenet's case, the experts seem to agree something was happening but couldn't settle on exactly what.

I think it was SD who mentioned that he could have been a situational abuser,and not a pedo per se.that's different from someone who goes after only kids.

 

[JMO8778]

It has always puzzled me too about the need to cover an accident. What's wrong with showing up at an emergency room with a child who has injured her head in an accident.

that's why I kinda wonder if it wasn't an accident..why cover an accident with a murder? why make it look worse than it really was?
the only other thing I can think of is there were marks around her neck from manual strangulation,as well as what Solace says is a thumbprint on her neck..(sounds likely to me)...that place that looks to be about the size of a quarter ..and so saying she fell down the stairs or whatever wouldn't work.and perhaps that person didn't want her to wake up and tell anyone anything about what happened.
The thing that gets me about the accident theory is Mark Fuhrman's comment that 'it was no accident...in fact,it was quite intentional'.I really respect what he has to say,so I wish he would elaborate more on that.

 

[JMO8778]

It all comes down to being a very COLD, evil person that could do this.

that, and being in save their arse mode...but I do think they are/were cold...anyone who could try to set up even some of their closest friends would have to be just that..not even caring if they went to prison for life,or even got the death penalty.I just don't think it would have mattered to them either way,as long as it exonerated themselves.Now that's COLD.

 

[Squishified]

I think PR (the "journalist") thought it was a PERFECT ransom note!

It WAS a perfect ransom note. Patsy was never arrested, so it worked.