CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #48

[MissJ]

None of us want DR to be in the lake. We all want him to be alive and to come home and live his life. But if he is gone from this world he needs to be respectfully laid to rest. I don't think ER and DR's brothers can stand much more of this not knowing. I know it has rarely happened but I don't see a scenario where DR is alive and held somewhere. I can't see MR or his friends being able to hide DR this long without being found out. Boys that age don't run away without help from someone they know. DR would not torture his mother this way. JMO

 

[rebeccaeee]

I don't think LE necessarily lies to the media or the public, but they do withhold certain information when it's in their best interests, or when it involves protecting the public and the media's personal safety. Sometimes they do try to minimize the importance of something, but I can only assume they have their reasons for that. As for the K9 alerts, they didn't know those dogs or the handlers, so they couldn't verify whether the alerts had any significance to this case or not. That's the way I see it anyway.

BBM: If you're referring to the search dogs used in November, they were from La Plata County Search and Rescue. LE should know those dogs even if they don't know Wendy's dogs from the K-9 Forensics searches in Feb/March.

 

[Bayou Mistress]

BBM: If you're referring to the search dogs used in November, they were from La Plata County Search and Rescue. LE should know those dogs even if they don't know Wendy's dogs from the K-9 Forensics searches in Feb/March.

I was just doing some reading and it seems that water cadaver dogs have training that ground HRD dogs don't. Does anyone know if the La Plata Search and Rescue or K-9 Forensics dogs have this additional training? In other words, I'm wondering if using a more specially trained dog might help divers determine where to search. If the La Plata dogs are trained in water detection, I still wonder at LE's downplay of the results.

 

[aust amateur slueth]

I was just doing some reading and it seems that water cadaver dogs have training that ground HRD dogs don't. Does anyone know if the La Plata Search and Rescue or K-9 Forensics dogs have this additional training? In other words, I'm wondering if using a more specially trained dog might help divers determine where to search. If the La Plata dogs are trained in water detection, I still wonder at LE's downplay of the results.

could you please provide a link to that information, I'd like to learn more about it

 

[*Lash*]

I was just doing some reading and it seems that water cadaver dogs have training that ground HRD dogs don't. Does anyone know if the La Plata Search and Rescue or K-9 Forensics dogs have this additional training? In other words, I'm wondering if using a more specially trained dog might help divers determine where to search. If the La Plata dogs are trained in water detection, I still wonder at LE's downplay of the results.

Article Last Updated: Sunday, November 25, 2012

Snip - The New Mexico State Patrol divers searched an area targeted by trained cadaver dogs from La Plata Search and Rescue. On Saturday, the dogs had repeatedly “hit” on several spots near the dam while aboard watercraft.

Temporary buoys were placed in the spots and the dive team searched in about 40 feet of cold water. No body had been found as of about 3 p.m. Sunday.

The dogs are trained to distinguish between human remains and animal remains, according to handlers Rae Dreves and Katie Steelman, both of Durango. Their dogs are Selah and Darc, respectively.

The third dog on the search, Cayenne, is handled by Roy Vreeland of Bayfield.

Once the dogs are trained for land-based cadaver searches, they can then be trained for water searches, the handlers said.

http://durangoherald.com/article/20121125/NEWS01/121129707/-1/s

 

[Bayou Mistress]

could you please provide a link to that information, I'd like to learn more about it

Sorry, I didn't think to supply links. Here are the two I looked at most recently (windows were still open). May want to google some more...

http://www.westjerseyk9.org/types/

http://cadaverdog.com/courses/course_water_search.htm

 

[aust amateur slueth]

Sorry, I didn't think to supply links. Here are the two I looked at most recently (windows were still open). May want to google some more...

http://www.westjerseyk9.org/types/

http://cadaverdog.com/courses/course_water_search.htm

thanks, that cadaverdog link looks like its been deserted, 2011 is just a bit behind the times.

I'm curious so had a look at a couple of other SAR K9 sites including http://sardoc.org/index.php/dogs/

IMO the only way they would have dogs on the water is if they were trained or in training for water searches.

 

[Bayou Mistress]

thanks, that cadaverdog link looks like its been deserted, 2011 is just a bit behind the times.

I'm curious so had a look at a couple of other SAR K9 sites including http://sardoc.org/index.php/dogs/

IMO the only way they would have dogs on the water is if they were trained or in training for water searches.

Yeah, I don't know, I was just following a thought. And wondering if those dogs had that training. I resist assumptions so I was hoping someone knew for sure.

 

[aust amateur slueth]

Yeah, I don't know, I was just following a thought. And wondering if those dogs had that training. I resist assumptions so I was hoping someone knew for sure.

I wasn't assuming, only it wouldn't be very logical for any SAR team to have a dog that was untrained in water searching conducting them would it?

 

[Bayou Mistress]

I wasn't assuming, only it wouldn't be very logical for any SAR team to have a dog that was untrained in water searching conducting them would it?

Maybe you know who certifies HRD dogs in the United States? Is their one national standard? One certifying agent? Or does each school certify their own? I know there is a certifying body for police dogs, but what about all the others?

 

[mmmagique]

Maybe you know who certifies HRD dogs in the United States? Is their one national standard? One certifying agent? Or does each school certify their own? I know there is a certifying body for police dogs, but what about all the others?

I believe SARs said that there are many different certifications, some more respected than others. I think she said she wasn't aware of the place that certified the last dogs out there. And I think she said it was in Florida if I remember correctly. If you look back through her posts, I'm sure you'll find it, but...there's been a LOT of posts here!!

 

[aust amateur slueth]

Maybe you know who certifies HRD dogs in the United States? Is their one national standard? One certifying agent? Or does each school certify their own? I know there is a certifying body for police dogs, but what about all the others?

google really is your (meaning general not personal) friend

http://www.sardogsus.org/id17.html

All SARDUS certifications required the SAR dog team to fulfill requirements set forth in a Task Book and demonstrate their skills over a series of tests

its worth noting that the standards for water searching are in progress

 

[The Cheese]

I was just doing some reading and it seems that water cadaver dogs have training that ground HRD dogs don't. Does anyone know if the La Plata Search and Rescue or K-9 Forensics dogs have this additional training? In other words, I'm wondering if using a more specially trained dog might help divers determine where to search. If the La Plata dogs are trained in water detection, I still wonder at LE's downplay of the results.

I don't know about training, but if you look on the FMDR and K-9 Forensics facebooks, you can see the same one of Wendy's dogs (Saber) searching water, deep snow, and thick ice.

On the K-9 Forensics facebook, you can also see Saber searching for ancient bones in what looks like desert or something. Saber finds a 1300 year old bone.

Then if you Google the Tammy Salle case, you'll find Saber searching a landfill. Wendy claimed her dogs found "human flesh" and human blood on multiple items in the landfill, but when LE tested it, it turned out it wasn't human anything.

So like I said, I don't know what training Wendy's dogs have, although in one article it says they specialize in landfill searches.

It looks to me like her dogs do everything. Or at least Saber does. I don't know about her other dogs (I didn't feel like spending the time to look them up too), and I don't know if that's usual or unusual for a dog to do so many different kinds of searches. Seems to me that would be confusing to a dog, but again, I just don't know. Maybe Sarx could comment on it.

:twocents:

 

[Allusonz]

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedi...otes/water.pdf
Department of Forensic Medicine, University of Dundee
Lecture Notes
Bodies from Water
(There is a link under the title on the first page that will bring you to the section header "Effects of Immersion" so that you don't have to scroll to the last portion.)

EFFECTS OF IMMERSION

I am sure the information is informative, except I was not mentally calculating this aspect

 

[aust amateur slueth]

I am sure the information is informative, except I was not mentally calculating this aspect

weren't you trying to work out the effect of water temperature on a body resurfacing?

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9141876&postcount=123"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #48[/ame]

 

[rebeccaeee]

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedi...otes/water.pdf
Department of Forensic Medicine, University of Dundee
Lecture Notes
Bodies from Water
(There is a link under the title on the first page that will bring you to the section header "Effects of Immersion" so that you don't have to scroll to the last portion.)

EFFECTS OF IMMERSION
Sinking, putrefaction and refloating

A body in water will usually sink but because the specific gravity of a body is
very close to that of water then small variations e.g. air trapped in clothing have a considerable effect on buoyancy. Having sunk to the bottom the body will remain there until putrefactive gas formation decreases the specific gravity of the body and creates sufficient buoyancy to allow it to rise to the surface and float. Heavy clothing and weights attached to the body may delay but will not usually prevent the body rising. Putrefaction proceeds at a slower rate in water than in air, in sea water than in fresh water and in running water than in stagnant water.

The principal determinant is the temperature of the water so that in deep very cold water e.g. the North American Great Lakes or the ocean the body may never resurface.

For the Thames, Simpson offers the following guidelines for resurfacing times:
June to August: 2 days; April, May, September and October: 3-5 days;
November, December: 10-14 days; January, February; possibly no resurfacing.
At water temperatures persistently below 45°F there may be no appreciable
decomposition after several weeks.

Please read more at the above link.

BBM

ETA: I posted this information on one of the threads for DR a while back, although I cannot find the post in looking through my history. If I find the post I specifically wrote in regard to DR's case, I will add the link here... [Update: I did an advanced search, and I have numerous posts discussing the effect of the cold water temperatures on decomposition in the last 3 threads regarding this case. One with a link to the page I submitted above. I will not link to them all, but they will show up under a search for "decomposition", along with my user name, and then searching the threads themselves for those same values.

ETA II:
Please note that the current estimated average water temperature in Lake Vallecito is 37 degrees as reported on this website:
http://www.fishingnotes.com/lakeinfo.php?id=3115


This page includes a trending chart for the last week. I have not been able to find a long-term water temp. chart as of yet.
http://www.fishingnotes.com/laketrends.php?id=3115&v=3

I found a website that does keep historical records in regard to the water temperature, but it requires a premium subscription: http://www.fishexplorer.com/co/lakedet.asp?lid=2143

ETA III: To tie into the information posted from the forensics page, I researched the average depth of the Great Lakes. I was surprised to find that with the exception of Lake Superior the average depths of the water are less than 300 ft. Of course, the maximum depths recorded are much deeper. Keep in mind that at its deepest part, near the dam, Vallecito Reservoir is approximately 270-280 feet (iirc).
The following is from:
http://www.epa.gov/greatlakes/factsheet.html
Average Water Depth (in feet):
Superior: 483
Michigan: 279
Huron: 195
Erie: 62
Ontario: 283

Excellent research!

This article discusses temps on decomp and explains a bit about why some bodies never float due to pressure...

http://www.absarokasearchdogs.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=128&Itemid=65

I still hold out hope that ROV and sonar might find things that divers cannot.

 

[Bayou Mistress]

So, from what I can glean, there doesn't appear to be one body that certifies any dog and handler combination, instead there seems to be certifications granted by various training schools.

Sardus is a non-profit with the most credentialing information I've seen anywhere.

http://www.sardogsus.org/id44.html

"Search and Rescue Dogs of the United States is a registered 501-c-3, non-profit charity.

All donations go to support search and rescue dog teams.

Donations may also be sent to:
SARDUS
C/O Ann Wichmann
46848 Highway 61 PO Box 85
Otis, Colorado 80743"

I too thought that the dogs and handlers focused on one primary "genre" of search and if I am really just wondering about all of it because of the cavalier statement by LE in Dylan's case.

 

[Seajay]

No family should have to go through the pain and agony of not knowing where their child is.

I watched the Jessica Lunsford case on FBI: Criminal Pursuit last night. LE interrogated Mark Lunsford for hours and hours over several days. His father was well. Both took poly's and both came back inconclusive. Neither were asked to take a second poly. Both were lied to by LE to try to get information out of them, both remained under suspicion until they arrested JC and got a confession out of him. The perp was staying at his sisters house across the street from the Lunsfords where he watched her playing in her front yard and formulated his evil plan.

So often these cases turn out so bad. I'm hoping and praying that the same thing doesn't happen to the Redwine family.

I know the family needs and wants closure, but it's my fervent prayer that the closure comes with a very alive and well Dylan in the end. FWIW. JMO.

 

[Ghostwheel]

No family should have to go through the pain and agony of not knowing where their child is.

I watched the Jessica Lunsford case on FBI: Criminal Pursuit last night. LE interrogated Mark Lunsford for hours and hours over several days. His father was well. Both took poly's and both came back inconclusive. Neither were asked to take a second poly. Both were lied to by LE to try to get information out of them, both remained under suspicion until they arrested JC and got a confession out of him. The perp was staying at his sisters house across the street from the Lunsfords where he watched her playing in her front yard and formulated his evil plan.

So often these cases turn out so bad. I'm hoping and praying that the same thing doesn't happen to the Redwine family.

I know the family needs and wants closure, but it's my fervent prayer that the closure comes with a very alive and well Dylan in the end. FWIW. JMO.

BBM: This article says differently, that everyone in the family passed lie detector tests. I wonder which is correct?

"The media quickly jumped on reports that Mark's father, Archie, had arrest convictions 50 years ago or more, but everyone in the Lunsford family cooperated fully with authorities, and they all passed lie detector tests"

http://voices.yahoo.com/mark-lunsford-fights-childrens-safety-411684.html?cat=52

ETA: This also says both ML and his father passed.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/03/01/search-suspended-for-fla-girl/

 

[Lordeebee]

If you're on AZGRAN, I am wondering about your thoughts on this since you were on the Dr Phil set:
Toward the beginning of the investigation, MR stated (paraphrasing) that he couldn't figure out why LE waited so long to search the lake since they knew from day one that Dylan's fishing pole was missing. This says to me that MR told LE right off the bat that the fishing pole was missing and that MR is making the case that D went fishing.

On the DP show when you brought up the conflicting stories about going to T's house, MR starts discussing the missing fishing pole (which IMO you weren't even asking about). Now he says (paraphrasing) again how the fishing pole was never found and then adds, Do I know he had the fishing pole, absolutely not.

CR then asks why he would notice that the fishing pole was missing, if he didn't even notice that the backpack was missing or that the bike was still at the home.

Did you get the impression at the time that MR was trying to back off on the complete certainty about the fishing pole? Maybe in hindsight he realized that it was strange to have been so quick to discuss the fishing pole at the beginning of the investigation?
Any other thoughts that you had on this topic?

(I'm speculating and realize any answers you give would be speculation too! Thanks)