CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #49

[Emma Ems]

Maybe some of the remains aren't quite under the reservoir, but under the land around the lake as well. The dogs hit on the shore, the land, on both the south and mid-east sides of the lake. On the mid-east side, the hits were 12 feet from the water.

How would a body in the water account for those land hits? This is one of the things that keeps me unsure that the cause of the hits is a body in the water - the land hits in two separate and distant areas.

I thought maybe dragging a body on land to the water and then disposing in the water, but I can't think of why someone would drag a body on the south end of the lake, and then pick up and carry or drive the body to the mid-east section of the lake, drag it some more, and then dispose of it in the water. Why would someone risk being seen that way?

And are these the only two land hits? There have been 16 searches by LE, and now this extensive search by Elaine's Illinois dog team and Vreeland/Cayenne. And where did Wendy's dogs hit? Land or water? One of the areas or different?

Not asking these questions of anyone. Just thinking out loud, voicing my questions. I really hope LE puts out a press release soon, or does a media interview, and explains their assessment of the situation. I'm not expecting it real soon though, because I think this is going to take some time to assess what they have, and come up with a plan to deal with it.

As far as dogs scenting on ancient bones, a while back I posted a link to K-9 Forensics Facebook where one of Wendy's dogs found a 1200 or 1300 year old bone. IIRC she had her dogs there to find old remains. IIRC she'd been asked to bring her dogs out to find multiple old human remains because they were excavating there. I'll see if I can find the link again.

ETA Here's one of the posts about it. 1300 years old

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...409404.-2207520000.1366992960.&type=3&theater

Interesting, isn't that specifically ONE of the dogs that was brought out to the lake?

In the other link I provided a few posts up the handler doesn't say specifically that her dogs are trained specially for HHRD. Plus in a link that Bayou posted earlier that said some dogs can be trained to hit ONLY on fresh remains but that dogs that work with LE should be trained on BOTH older and fresh remains(I take that as meaning skeleton remains.) Another issue I noted is that for some reason SOME handlers refer to their dogs as HRD dogs, like it's a blanket term, when really it should NOT be a blanket term. The link Redhead provided is a good example: Cadaver Dog, Decomposition Dog, Water Search Dog, HRD, and then HHRD. The definition of an HRD dog is one that has not been trained to look for a live human where a cadaver dog says it's been crossed trained to look for a dead human(it doesn't state cross trained with what though, and an HHRD dog is trained exclusively with bones and teeth Then you have various articles that state that dogs trained with pigs will also hit on pigs, and that dogs trained on pseudoscents which are cadervine and putrecine which MANY other dead things contain, so basically they will hit on anything that produces those two compounds.

A trained human cadaver dog will not signal a living person or an animal (except pigs), but it will signal a recently deceased, putrefying or skeletonised human corpse. That suggests that the "bouquet of death" is discernible, but attempts to identify it have so far failed. Two of the by-products of decomposition, putrescine and cadaverine, have been bottled and are commercially available as dog training aids. But they are also present in all decaying organic material, and in human saliva.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...uth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html

So basically my conclusion is this, it all comes down to the trainers and the dogs. Without knowing specifically what the trainers of the dogs are using to train their dogs with(pigs, pseudoscents, or actual remains, and again remains could be blood, tissue, and bones) we really can't say what the dogs in the area may or may not be alerting to. However, if Wendy's dogs are trained on bone remains, and Saber is indeed one of the dogs that alerted, then according to Wendy Saber does alert on old remains. Various trainers think various methods are more appropriate than others(like the link Bayou posted, they think dogs working for LE should be trained on not only fresh scents but older scents as well.)

Like all search dogs, cadaver dogs go through extensive training before they can become certified and operational. Cadaver dogs are first trained to recognize a wide spectrum of odors associated with human remains, depending on their specific use. Cadaver dogs for use in a disaster situation focus on more recent decomposition odors, while cadaver dogs that work with law enforcement are also trained to recognize older decomposition odors and smaller odor sources. Only actual human remains are used to train the dogs, no pseudo scent is used in the training process. All K-9s are first taught to give a trained final response or indication upon detection of the odor. They are taught to only give this response when they locate the strongest source of the odor. A large amount of time is spent on making sure that the indication is solid before the K-9 is ever taught to actually search for the odor in a scenario-based problem. Cadaver dogs that are trained in water recovery are taught to give this final indication while working from a boat on a body of water.

http://www.illinoissearchdogs.org/ca...ver_dogs.shtml

 

[Redhead72]

I really do not know what to say about all the hits all over the lake and nothing to show for it...


Sarx post....

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CO - Dylan Redwine missing from Vallecito ***SEARCH DISCUSSION ONLY***

I'd like to bring over a link from thread #48 from sarx in regard to historical burial sites, and regular cadaver dogs picking up those scents.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9141224&postcount=71
Dogs that work historical sites are trained specifically for that. It is a different scent composition than fresh remains, which is why there are dogs specific to historical remains detection.
While it is possible that someone else is down under that water, it's not likely that these particular dogs being used were trained for historical/archaeology detection. There is a very small group of dogs/handlers that do this kind of work, and I am pretty certain none of them were out there.

So, from many different sources, and experts we have seen it stated rather conclusively that a regular cadaver dog would not be hitting on an ancient burial site - whether there is one there, or not.

 

[Redhead72]

So basically my conclusion is this, it all comes down to the trainers and the dogs. Without knowing specifically what the trainers of the dogs are using to train their dogs with(pigs, pseudoscents, or actual remains, and again remains could be blood, tissue, and bones) we really can't say what the dogs in the area may or may not be alerting to. However, if Wendy's dogs are trained on bone remains, and Saber is indeed one of the dogs that alerted, then according to Wendy Saber does alert on old remains. Various trainers think various methods are more appropriate than others(like the link Bayou posted, they think dogs working for LE should be trained on not only fresh scents but older scents as well.)

snipped for focus...

Fresh bone is still different than historical bones. Where a reasonably "fresh" body is buried, even if completely skeletonized, the gasses and liquids from decomposition would be within the soil surrounding the bones themselves. That is how they find human remains. It's a completely different process to train a dog for historical detection vs. "fresh" detection for bones, or flesh.

ETA: "old bones" are still different than "archaeological remains".

 

[azgrandma]

So basically my conclusion is this, it all comes down to the trainers and the dogs. Without knowing specifically what the trainers of the dogs are using to train their dogs with(pigs, pseudoscents, or actual remains, and again remains could be blood, tissue, and bones) we really can't say what the dogs in the area may or may not be alerting to. However, if Wendy's dogs are trained on bone remains, and Saber is indeed one of the dogs that alerted, then according to Wendy Saber does alert on old remains. Various trainers think various methods are more appropriate than others(like the link Bayou posted, they think dogs working for LE should be trained on not only fresh scents but older scents as well.)
snipped & bbm.

I have gone directly to the source and will share their response as soon as I can. IMO, HHRD dogs are trained differently.

I guess I got snip happy, this above quote was Emma Ems #941

 

[aust amateur slueth]

I'd like to bring over a link from thread #48 from sarx in regard to historical burial sites, and regular cadaver dogs picking up those scents.



So, from many different sources, and experts we have seen it stated rather conclusively that a regular cadaver dog would not be hitting on an ancient burial site - whether there is one there, or not.

just jumping off your post there was a link by rebeccaeee to historical information about the lake.

the excavations for the lake were between 15 and 50 feet deep, how deep would graves have been?

also if there had been any indication that there was a burial site there what would be the likelyhood of there being total silence about it from everyone?

 

[Emma Ems]

If anyone has differing info, would you please let me know? Thanks.

Dogs used in the lake area searches

Total 5 dog teams, 5 handlers, 7 dogs. All but one dog is a cadaver dog. (Vreeland/Cayenne team searched 2 separate areas, south and mid-east.)

November
3 dog teams (3 dogs with 3 separate handlers)

Trained cadaver dogs from La Plata Search and Rescue alerted on unidentified scent sources in Vallecito Lake Saturday and again Sunday morning.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/-/s...in-bayfield-area-for-missing-dylan-redwine-13

The dogs are trained to distinguish between human remains and animal remains, according to handlers Rae Dreves and Katie Steelman, both of Durango. Their dogs are Selah and Darc, respectively.

The third dog on the search, Cayenne, is handled by Roy Vreeland of Bayfield.
http://durangoherald.com/article/20121125/NEWS01/121129707/-1/s

February
1 dog team (1 handler with 3 dogs)

Wendy Kessinger of Special Operations Canine Detection of New Mexico conducted the searches with two dogs, Jetta and Saber, that are trained to identify bones and human remains. Another bloodhound, Sadie, is trained to find live people and also was involved in the search.

http://www.pinerivertimes.com/news.asp?artid=1138

April
2 dog teams (2 dogs with 2 separate handlers)

Hess said Hope for Dylan Redwine contacted the cadaver dog team best suited for their needs and flew in a handler and her dog that is specifically trained and certified on cadavers, but especially recognizes the scent of human remains on water.

Local resident Roy Vreeland’s dog searched the same stretch of shore, and again the dog indicated the odor of human remains, Hess said.

http://www.pinerivertimes.com/news.asp?artid=1162

BBM, it does appear Saber was one of the dogs Wendy brought in.

 

[The Cheese]

I'd like to bring over a link from thread #48 from sarx in regard to historical burial sites, and regular cadaver dogs picking up those scents.



So, from many different sources, and experts we have seen it stated rather conclusively that a regular cadaver dog would not be hitting on an ancient burial site - whether there is one there, or not.

But one of the dogs that searched at the lake in November and got hits there also alerted in March of this year on 1300 year old skeletal remains. So for myself, I can't rule out old skeletal remains being one of the possible causes for the dogs in all the lake searches alerting on both water and land, the land areas being completely separate and distant.

I certainly can't state that the dogs who have searched would alert on old skeletal remains. Basically, because one of them has.

[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9314579&postcount=130"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CO - Dylan Redwine missing from Vallecito ***SEARCH DISCUSSION ONLY***[/ame]

:cow:

 

[Emma Ems]

So basically my conclusion is this, it all comes down to the trainers and the dogs. Without knowing specifically what the trainers of the dogs are using to train their dogs with(pigs, pseudoscents, or actual remains, and again remains could be blood, tissue, and bones) we really can't say what the dogs in the area may or may not be alerting to. However, if Wendy's dogs are trained on bone remains, and Saber is indeed one of the dogs that alerted, then according to Wendy Saber does alert on old remains. Various trainers think various methods are more appropriate than others(like the link Bayou posted, they think dogs working for LE should be trained on not only fresh scents but older scents as well.)
snipped & bbm.

I have gone directly to the source and will share their response as soon as I can. IMO, HHRD dogs are trained differently.

I guess I got snip happy, this above quote was Emma Ems #941

No one is disputing they are trained differently only they are trained only to locate the decomp that comes from bones specifically. Their only focus is on bones, where as various dog handlers train their dogs to hit on the scents produced by blood, tissue, and bones. So an HHRD is taught to exclude smells produced-or rather never introduced to-smells found in earlier decomp stages.

 

[azgrandma]

IMO - the possibility that all the dogs, that are not specifically trained as HHRD dogs, somehow, someway, all alerted on a burial ground under water for 70 yrs are so far out there odds can't be calculated. I just haven't seen a link to support that possibility.
IMO - there is absolutely no connection between Sutter & Dylan, none, zip, nada, ziltch.
IMO - there is no chance that a serial murderer picked the one moment in time that Dylan would possibly unknowningly be alone in Vallecito and choose Dylan & Vallecito for their next target.
IMO - there is no chance that a RSO or SO unknown or known to MR is the only RSO or SO that wasn't questioned and cleared by LE and got so lucky in life as to stumble upon Dylan and has remained undetected as of yet.
IMO - the coincidences that it would take for any of the above to happen are more astronomical than the basic circumstantial and factual information already obtained to indicate that MR has heavy involvement and possibly the only person with involvement in the disappearance of Dylan. MOO is that there are too many holes in his story, too many changes in his story and the odds of events happening in the time given and the sequence given, including all the variations, is beyond any possible calculation. MR's actions/inactions, distancing of himself, strange behavior and lack of involvement in any activity also adds to my beliefs of his involvement. <modsnip>.
ALL MOO.

 

[Emma Ems]

snipped for focus...

Fresh bone is still different than historical bones. Where a reasonably "fresh" body is buried, even if completely skeletonized, the gasses and liquids from decomposition would be within the soil surrounding the bones themselves. That is how they find human remains. It's a completely different process to train a dog for historical detection vs. "fresh" detection for bones, or flesh.

ETA: "old bones" are still different than "archaeological remains".

Ok I am bringing this quote back from this article:

But how good are dogs at detecting a skeleton from which all the flesh has fallen away? The anthropologist Keith Jacobi of the University of Alabama has investigated this at a police-dog training facility, where human remains ranging from fresh to skeletonised have been buried (the remains were bequeathed by donors).

In one study involving four dogs and their handlers, Jacobi says the dogs were able to detect remains at all stages of decomposition. Performance varied between dogs, but some could locate skeletonised remains buried in an area of 300ft by 150ft. "The few single human vertebrae I used in the study were well over 25 years old, and dry bone," Jacobi says. "This made the discovery of one of these vertebrae, which we buried in dense woods 2ft deep, by a cadaver dog pretty remarkable."

I bolded the dogs included in the study. LE I do not believe would want a dog specific to only old remains, like an archaeologist would, so I don't think those dogs were trained to look specifically for old remains, just human remains.

To me it makes sense that LE would want their dogs to find any kind of remains, if you count the environmental factor and how it effects decomp. They would wanted them to be able to find not only buried bodies but those left exposed in the elements at any given time, be it a month or a year later.

In this study the average LE HRD dog was tested to see if it would hit on a fragment of bone that was over 25 years old.

I look it at like this, if you are in LE you wouldn't care how old the body is you found, you wouldn't discriminate, you would want to find it if it's there; however, if you are an archaeologist and only wanted to find one type of human remains-those that were very old- you wouldn't want it hitting on every single body it happened to smell. Thus the specific need for a dog trained to exclude fresher remains.

 

[NC Analyzer]

IMO - the possibility that all the dogs, that are not specifically trained as HHRD dogs, somehow, someway, all alerted on a burial ground under water for 70 yrs are so far out there odds can't be calculated. I just haven't seen a link to support that possibility.
IMO - there is absolutely no connection between Sutter & Dylan, none, zip, nada, ziltch.
IMO - there is no chance that a serial murderer picked the one moment in time that Dylan would possibly unknowningly be alone in Vallecito and choose Dylan & Vallecito for their next target.
IMO - there is no chance that a RSO or SO unknown or known to MR is the only RSO or SO that wasn't questioned and cleared by LE and got so lucky in life as to stumble upon Dylan and has remained undetected as of yet.
IMO - the coincidences that it would take for any of the above to happen are more astronomical than the basic circumstantial and factual information already obtained to indicate that MR has heavy involvement and possibly the only person with involvement in the disappearance of Dylan. MOO is that there are too many holes in his story, too many changes in his story and the odds of events happening in the time given and the sequence given, including all the variations, is beyond any possible calculation. MR's actions/inactions, distancing of himself, strange behavior and lack of involvement in any activity also adds to my beliefs of his involvement. <modsnip>.
ALL MOO.

Not only do I agree with every opinion you have offered, I would like to add one that adds to the suspicion surrounding Mark Redwine...and that is the fact that a child known for routinely texting and remaining in contact with his friends suddenly stopped all communications with ANYONE shortly after his arrival in CO during a court ordered visitation with his father, Mark Redwine. There are those who may disagree, but that one factor alone is the biggest reason my eyes are firmly locked on MR and will remain as such until I see a significant change in the direction of this case. It is simple. It is heartbreaking. But it is what it is.

 

[mixologist74]

IMO - the possibility that all the dogs, that are not specifically trained as HHRD dogs, somehow, someway, all alerted on a burial ground under water for 70 yrs are so far out there odds can't be calculated. I just haven't seen a link to support that possibility.
IMO - there is absolutely no connection between Sutter & Dylan, none, zip, nada, ziltch.
IMO - there is no chance that a serial murderer picked the one moment in time that Dylan would possibly unknowningly be alone in Vallecito and choose Dylan & Vallecito for their next target.
IMO - there is no chance that a RSO or SO unknown or known to MR is the only RSO or SO that wasn't questioned and cleared by LE and got so lucky in life as to stumble upon Dylan and has remained undetected as of yet.
IMO - the coincidences that it would take for any of the above to happen are more astronomical than the basic circumstantial and factual information already obtained to indicate that MR has heavy involvement and possibly the only person with involvement in the disappearance of Dylan. MOO is that there are too many holes in his story, too many changes in his story and the odds of events happening in the time given and the sequence given, including all the variations, is beyond any possible calculation. MR's actions/inactions, distancing of himself, strange behavior and lack of involvement in any activity also adds to my beliefs of his involvement. <modsnip>.
ALL MOO.

Could you further explain this? It sounds like you're saying that MR knows RSOs or SOs. I hope I misunderstood this.

 

[Tennlyn]

Could you further explain this? It sounds like you're saying that MR knows RSOs or SOs. I hope I misunderstood this.

MR spoke about he RSO around the corner from him in the uncut interview with MB, so clearly he knows at least one RSO. Funny thing about that is that MR said it was ironic that there's an RSO so close. Not sure why that is ironic unless MR knows for a fact that RSO wasn't involved in Dylan's disappearance. Things that make you go hmm...
:moo::moo::moo:

 

[Salem]

Could you further explain this? It sounds like you're saying that MR knows RSOs or SOs. I hope I misunderstood this.

It does appear to be a misunderstanding. The way I read this, is that Azgrandma does not believe an RSO or SO is responsible for Dylan's disappearance, regardless if it was just a stranger abduction, or if, by some chance, MR might know such a person, and that person had met Dylan at some prior time (an acquaintance type person). She is not saying that MR knows an RSO or SO.

Hope that helps,

Salem

 

[Salem]

MR spoke about he RSO around the corner from him in the uncut interview with MB, so clearly he knows at least one RSO. Funny thing about that is that MR said it was ironic that there's an RSO so close. Not sure why that is ironic unless MR knows for a fact that RSO wasn't involved in Dylan's disappearance. Things that make you go hmm...
:moo::moo::moo:

Do you have a link for the "ironic" comment, or can you tell me wish interview it came from? I don't remember it and would like to review it.

Thanks,

Salem

 

[mixologist74]

MR spoke about he RSO around the corner from him in the uncut interview with MB, so clearly he knows at least one RSO. Funny thing about that is that MR said it was ironic that there's an RSO so close. Not sure why that is ironic unless MR knows for a fact that RSO wasn't involved in Dylan's disappearance. Things that make you go hmm...
:moo::moo::moo:

IMO, the fact that he said that doesn't raise any red flags for me. The irony for me, if it were my child missing, would be just the fact that a RSO was living close and my child went missing, period. I hope that made sense. I also find it extremely ironic that Jason Sutter lived very close to the middle school that Dylan went to, and that he is a LPCSO deputy. Who knows if he knew Dylan, or ever spoke to Dylan? That's more ironic to me than what MR said. JMO.

 

[azgrandma]

Could you further explain this? It sounds like you're saying that MR knows RSOs or SOs. I hope I misunderstood this.

Actually I think Rebecceee answered it perfect for me. Whether it be a RSO or an elephant as an example used. IMO - there is no chance that a RSO or SO unknown or known to MR is the only RSO or SO that wasn't questioned and cleared by LE and got so lucky in life as to stumble upon Dylan and has remained undetected as of yet.

I'm not certain how it sounds as if I am saying that MR knows RSO's or SO's especially since I clearly said known or unknown and I was expressing my opinion. I hope that clears up your misunderstanding.

 

[Salem]

For anyone following the Hailey Dunn case, the remains found in Scurry County at J.B. Thomas Lake have been positively identified as Hailey.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9315296#post9315296"]2013.04.26: Hailey Dunn's remains found March 18th, 2013 - Page 3 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

Salem

 

[Salem]

For anyone following the Hailey Dunn case, the remains found in Scurry County at J.B. Thomas Lake have been positively identified as Hailey.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9315296#post9315296"]2013.04.26: Hailey Dunn's remains found March 18th, 2013 - Page 3 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

Salem

 

[azgrandma]

Am I the only one here that can't quote multiple postings? I tried and only one came up, wish I knew what I was doing wrong.