CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #49

[rebeccaeee]

OT, I followed Hailey's disappearance from the start. So sad that it took 27 months for an answer, but relieved she has been found. But it does show that five months is often no time at all in these cases. You really have to expect to be around for a very long haul.

There are very few here who were here back in December. I hope we do not still have to be here three years from now but your point is quite valid and if Dylan is still missing then, you can bet I'll still be here looking for him, so to speak. Thanks for sticking around too.

 

[Psychic Sleuth]

I remember reading that Lt. Bender mentioning that there are many homeless in the area when the dogs first hit on the lake. I don't think any of those homeless who may be deceased would be included in the database.

Do you have a link please? I remember reading something about homeless people and the lake but I don't remember seeing anything directly from Bender stating there were MANY. I would be surprised if there are any come winter time around there. The winters are pretty harsh.

 

[Emma Ems]

LE doesn't care if you are homeless or not, if you are the victim of a crime or reported missing you are in their data base.

Now, if nobody reported them missing, then are they really missing or did they just move on?

Not to requote you but, I am laughing at myself because when I responded to this I was reading the quote by MG and I didn't even see your response. I am having a bit time duh day.

 

[Emma Ems]

Is there a link for the ancient Indian burial grounds at the lake? I've never heard or read anything about this and I don't understand how there could be human remains buried under the lake that I believe was a river there before they built the dam. I've never heard of Indian's burying remains in or close to water.

Also the lake hasn't always been there either. I could never find confirmation one was there, but I did see that aside from the Utes in that area there were other Indians there before the Utes. I can't remember all the Indian tribes that are believed to be there so I just say rich Indian History.

http://dino3535.wordpress.com/bayfield-vallecito-lake-history/

 

[rebeccaeee]

Also the lake hasn't always been there either. I could never find confirmation one was there, but I did see that aside from the Utes in that area there were other Indians there before the Utes. I can't remember all the Indian tribes that are believed to be there so I just say rich Indian History.

http://www.usbr.gov/projects//ImageServer?imgName=Doc_1305126548112.pdf

Goes back to Anasazi and prehistory. Read it and snooze. I did. Lowland is lowland. Always been a valley there to fill up with water.

 

[findDylan]

My brother was homeless in a big city for 4 years. The homeless usually stay in groups at night. Safer that way. With Vallecito being a smaller area if there is a lot of homeless they all know each other and talk with each other. If one goes missing suddenly, unless everyone is involved with the dissapearance, then someone would tell LE. There would be talk at the local store and such. IMO. This is just based off what I have been told by my brother. MOO

 

[findDylan]

I have some family who are in the area that know about the native Americans and their burial. Most burials around that area are not where it's flat. They are under rock shelf's and in more private areas. Not out in the open. And they would never be where water would be. They would not contaminate their water source. MOO

 

[Redhead72]

I would rather it be some old remains of people who died of natural causes. If it's deer or elk, then all these dogs alerting on animals will really discredit the credibility of HRD dogs and I hope it's not someone else's family down there that's been victimized by someone else. There is a reason I am sticking to old burial remains, because I don't want there to be any people suffering the loss of their loved ones. I also don't want a valuable tool of LE's discredited.

Elk and pigs are one of only several animals whose decaying remains can closely resemble the same scent as that of a decomposing human body. It would be highly unlikely that many dogs would hit on one of those animals, but it wouldn't completely discredit the dogs or their handlers, so to speak.

I think it's pretty safe to say that's not going to happen in this case. I think they would have found an elk by now considering the size, and I'm not aware of any feral hogs in the Colorado Mountains, so unless someone purposely took a pig and threw it in the water, that's highly unlikely as well.

I don't want anyone else's family to be suffering either - but the truth is, whoever the body belongs to in the lake - their family is already suffering and finding the body would help provide a family with closure, and an opportunity to begin healing, or it could provide the final clue in order to get some other (unrelated) violent criminal off the streets, thereby protecting more people...

As for the ancient burial grounds - I've been trying to keep up here, but have been in and out today... Is there a link to suggest that maybe there is an ancient burial ground there? I know that especially in Colorado - even back in the 1930s and 40s - digging up an ancient burial site for a reservoir would be quite controversial. Even today where there are ancient sacred burial sites that have been "taken" or no longer controlled by the tribe they are associated with there are lawsuits and such to return the land to said tribes.

Knowing what I do about the ancestral indian tribes of the region it is highly unlikely they would have placed a burial ground in a natural waterway that would be prone to flooding, thereby risking the desecration of the graves. If there's one thing native americans knew it was nature, and they wouldn't have placed a burial ground in an area like that.

In fact, the Ute indians were known to bury their dead in the mountains under rocks. In keeping with their spiritual beliefs they would not bury their dead in the valley where they had their winter camp. And, they most definitely wouldn't bury their dead near the water where they believed spirits and entities existed. Ghosts were very real to them, and after a person died they would often burn the person's home, and even their personal belongings including livestock, horses, and slaves. To then bury someone in the valley where they lived for half the year (at least) would seem to defy rationality - looking from their point of view.

Those are some of the reasons why I don't believe there is an ancient burial ground under Vallecito Reservoir - despite the fact that if there was it would be an absolutely valuable archaeological discovery, not to mention the implications for future training of HHRD dogs! I would absolutely love for it to be an ancient burial site... I just can't find anything to grab onto to join you in that speculation. I really wish I could though.

Some more information about the Ute Indian tribes can be found here:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Ute.aspx

As always, most of the above is MOO! And, some is my own speculation... :cow:

 

[Redhead72]

I have some family who are in the area that know about the native Americans and their burial. Most burials around that area are not where it's flat. They are under rock shelf's and in more private areas. Not out in the open. And they would never be where water would be. They would not contaminate their water source. MOO

Thank you for that! You and I must have been writing at the same time!

I'm glad to know that my understanding of their customs matches what your family members have shared with you.

:seeya:

 

[Psychic Sleuth]

From the link above. It was the Pine river originally. I can't imagine they would bury remains in or near the river that could rise at any time. Also bolded at the end they dug down 15 - 50 feet. I'm sure the Indians didn't bury their loved ones that deep.

Clearing and stripping of the dam site began on May 14, 1937, with work
limited to the right side of the river channel. Clearing and stripping on the left side of the river
channel was delayed until the river was low enough to allow heavy equipment to cross the
channel. A temporary diversion channel was excavated during July and August, and on October
15, following completion of stripping operations on the left side of the river, the river was
diverted through the temporary channel. During stripping operations, a large deposit of sandy
material was discovered requiring the excavation of 250,000 cubic yards (cu/yd) of material
beyond work that had been estimated during site investigations. Most of the additional material
was not usable in the dam embankment and had to be wasted.11
Excavation for the outlet works began in late June 1937 and was substantially complete
by the end of the year. Excavations for the cut-off trench on the right abutment began as soon as
stripping operations were complete. The cut-off trench provides a watertight seal between the
dam and bedrock. The excavations ranged in depth from fifteen to fifty feet.

 

[Redhead72]

http://www.usbr.gov/projects//ImageServer?imgName=Doc_1305126548112.pdf

Goes back to Anasazi and prehistory. Read it and snooze. I did. Lowland is lowland. Always been a valley there to fill up with water.

Awww... snoozing? I thought the Anasazi people were fascinating to learn about back when I lived in CO! Unfortunately I never got to actually visit some of their sites in person. Closest I got was driving by the one down by CO Springs, iirc. Something about wind was the name of the settlement there. I'm going to have to go look that up...

 

[Crosby87]

Not only do I agree with every opinion you have offered, I would like to add one that adds to the suspicion surrounding Mark Redwine...and that is the fact that a child known for routinely texting and remaining in contact with his friends suddenly stopped all communications with ANYONE shortly after his arrival in CO during a court ordered visitation with his father, Mark Redwine. There are those who may disagree, but that one factor alone is the biggest reason my eyes are firmly locked on MR and will remain as such until I see a significant change in the direction of this case. It is simple. It is heartbreaking. But it is what it is.

I wonder if Mark hurt Dylan because he wasn't responding to his messages after he moved to Colorado Springs? In Mark's interview with MB, starting at the 4:29 mm, Mark said after Dylan moved to CS he always tried at least once a week to contact Dylan and he wasn’t going to nag him to death and call him every 5 minutes till he returned his calls. Mark said he could text Dylan and leave him a voice mail and he’d leave it up to Dylan to respond when he wants to BUT Mark doesn’t think his environment was very conducive for that (paraphrased). Mark said after he dropped Dylan off in CS in August, the next time he saw Dylan was at the custody hearing on September 21st. His next visit with Dylan was 2 months later on Nov 19th.

I won't include the link because it loads the video.

JMO

 

[Seajay]

Something is causing the dogs to hit in all sorts of various places. Either it's one body in pieces that got dragged all over the shore first before being thrown in the lake, or human remains were buried in the area long ago, maybe during the wild west days, and are emitting scents the dogs are catching on it. Unless there are multiple bodies and there is a serial killer working the area. Those are the only things I can think of that would cause a variety of hits on and around the lake. JMO, IMO, MOO>

 

[Crosby87]

Someone asked about upcoming court hearings and in Mark’s interview with MB, 7:02 mm, he said he spoke with his divorce attorney Monday morning because they were in the process of filing some papers with the Courts in regards to the divorce side of stuff.

 

[katydid23]

I want to bring up this point real quick. My friend has a daughter who is diabetic. She got a Diabetic Alert Dog for her daughter. The dog is suppose to react to the scent of chemical changes in the body. Then you have the amazing animals, the ones in nursing homes, that seem to know when someone is about to pass and goes and lays with them as they are dying. Dogs can scent changes in the human body. If these smells are being emitted around us at all times I do feel like they can be deposited on any absorbent surface we touch. Which is how the decomp scent is transferred? Now there was a study I read about recently in which they said the corpses were less than 3 hours old, and had been deposited on carpet squares for 2 minutes, and then 10 minutes. In the study, it said the dogs were tested on the exposed carpet for 2 minutes for 35 days and they hit for 65 days on the square that had been exposed for 10 minutes. I read snippets from an article but I just found the document for the whole study. I also read a few articles on decomp as a process and it does state decomp begins the minute you die and that the cells within the body begin to break down. If chemical changes within the body release odors into the air that dogs can pick up as soon as they occur(like the diabetic alert dog) then why can't the same be said of an HRD dog?



http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/HRD/Oesterhelweg 1998.pdf

The above articles discusses people who were dead for three hours in the location that the dogs were tested.

My question pertains to cadaver dogs being able to hit on a scene where the body was dead for just minutes. That is what I am very curious about.

ETA: From what I have read, it is very hard to train dogs to pick up the scent of things that are dead for only moments. What can trainers use to get that scent for training?

 

[ColdHands]

The above articles discusses people who were dead for three hours in the location that the dogs were tested.

My question pertains to cadaver dogs being able to hit on a scene where the body was dead for just minutes. That is what I am very curious about.

ETA: From what I have read, it is very hard to train dogs to pick up the scent of things that are dead for only moments. What can trainers use to get that scent for training?

Is it actually a different scent or is it just that the scent has not accumulated/built up in quantity in that short period of time?

 

[Psychic Sleuth]

Something is causing the dogs to hit in all sorts of various places. Either it's one body in pieces that got dragged all over the shore first before being thrown in the lake, or human remains were buried in the area long ago, maybe during the wild west days, and are emitting scents the dogs are catching on it. Unless there are multiple bodies and there is a serial killer working the area. Those are the only things I can think of that would cause a variety of hits on and around the lake. JMO, IMO, MOO>

I don't think there were various hits in different area's but more like repeated hits in the same area's by different dogs FWIW.

Also please read my post up a little ways about the construction of the dam. It was constructed where the Pine River was originally and they dug down 15-50 ft. I doubt anybody from the wild west days buried their loved ones in or near the river and I highly doubt they buried them more than 15 feet deep. I agree that the repeated hits in the same two area's is a bit perplexing. I would think either that means two bodies, or a body in separate pieces or perhaps a body that was in one place for a period of time then eventually drifted to the other place.

 

[katydid23]

I just want to say a few things, so in no particular order

1. I would like Dylan to be found alive and safe, but I am also a realist so cannot ignore the chances of that happening are very slim.

2. LE do not generally name a POI or suspect these days unless an arrest is imminent. LE have not cleared MR, in fact they refuted his claim about the polygrapher not being competent and they refuted his claim that he reported Dylan missing to the Marshals office, IMO they as good as called him a liar, so that then begs the question why would he lie if he had no involvement in Dylans disappearance?

3. I'm not 'convinced' about MRs guilt, I'm very highly suspicious of him for a number of reasons that I am unable to ignore. I look at what facts we know along with possibility, probability plausability and behaviour.

4. LE have given absolutely no indication at all that there is any sort of link between Dylans disappearance and sutters arrest. IF LE indicate at a later point that there is a connection then I will take it into consideration at that point in time, until then it has no bearing on Dylans case IMO.

5. I don't believe that all of the dogs could be wrong. the odds of that are astronomical.

6. I don't believe that theres some ancient burial ground under the lake, we've not heard this from any locals, from any media and not from any historians, if I am incorrect and there is evidence that it was once a burial ground then can someone please provide links to that evidence, <modsnip>.

If there was a Native American burial ground, then they could not have built the dam there, imo. I think the local historical society would have intervened and stopped the project. JMO

 

[Angelonline]

I wonder if Mark hurt Dylan because he wasn't responding to his messages after he moved to Colorado Springs? In Mark's interview with MB, starting at the 4:29 mm, Mark said after Dylan moved to CS he always tried at least once a week to contact Dylan and he wasn’t going to nag him to death and call him every 5 minutes till he returned his calls. Mark said he could text Dylan and leave him a voice mail and he’d leave it up to Dylan to respond when he wants to BUT Mark doesn’t think his environment was very conducive for that (paraphrased). Mark said after he dropped Dylan off in CS in August, the next time he saw Dylan was at the custody hearing on September 21st. His next visit with Dylan was 2 months later on Nov 19th.

I won't include the link because it loads the video.

JMO

I thought Dylan stayed with his dad over Labor day weekend?

 

[Psychic Sleuth]

If there was a Native American burial ground, then they could not have built the dam there, imo. I think the local historical society would have intervened and stopped the project. JMO

They would have definitely found remains since they dug 15-50 ft deep. No way there are human remains under that lake. Not only that but it was built on the Pine River. I don't think the indians were burying their loved ones in or near the river.