Identified! CO - Gunnison Nat’l Forest, 3 Decomposed Bodies, long term camping near Gold Creek Campground, July 2023 - Rebecca & Christine Vance & Boy, 14

[ch_13]

I think the campsite they selected was well-chosen if their goal was to not be seen by others or have visitors. Based on my past mountain experiences, it isn't surprising that it took so long for them to be discovered. They chose a location that was just outside the Fossil Ridge Wilderness. I've gone backpacking many times in designated wilderness areas like this one. Because of it's location, the Gold Creek Campground would be used mostly by backpackers and hikers who were coming into or out of the Fossil Ridge Wilderness. There are several trailheads into the wilderness found just north and northwest of the Gold Creek Campground. There would be parking areas nearby for multi-day backpackers to park their vehicles.

The deceased apparently chose a campsite in the opposite direction of the trailheads in a well-hidden location that would've gotten very little, if any, foot traffic from campground visitors. Anyone heading in their direction from the Gold Creek Campground would've likely been doing so to collect water from the creek, and would not have continued past it. They were in a place where they could feel and act like they were truly living alone in the wild, while not actually being too far from roads back to civilization in case things went bad. A good training area for being off-grid IMO. Unfortunately, things did end up going terribly wrong. I also think it is likely that they didn't intend to stay at this location through the winter, and something took place unexpectedly before winter fully hit.

You may very well be right that it would have been hard for them to be spotted. However I just think that they were close enough that someone would have eventually heard them or noticed their campfire. When the wind conditions are right, voices and smoke will both carry a long way. I'm not sure what fire restrictions were in place last year, but an illegal campfire might very well bring on some scrutiny. Of course once they passed away it was no longer an issue and someone had to actually stumble over their camp to discover them.

The idea that this was just a temporary camp is an interesting one. For me, perhaps the most puzzling part of this case is the lack of food at the campsite. It seems that they were planning to live off of their food stores. So how could they have brought so little, especially with a growing teen boy accompanying them? It would make sense if they intended to move. Or maybe they had a planned resupply that went awry somehow.

 

[Gophers_FTW]

You may very well be right that it would have been hard for them to be spotted. However I just think that they were close enough that someone would have eventually heard them or noticed their campfire. When the wind conditions are right, voices and smoke will both carry a long way. I'm not sure what fire restrictions were in place last year, but an illegal campfire might very well bring on some scrutiny. Of course once they passed away it was no longer an issue and someone had to actually stumble over their camp to discover them.

The idea that this was just a temporary camp is an interesting one. For me, perhaps the most puzzling part of this case is the lack of food at the campsite. It seems that they were planning to live off of their food stores. So how could they have brought so little, especially with a growing teen boy accompanying them? It would make sense if they intended to move. Or maybe they had a planned resupply that went awry somehow.

It is possible that their presence was noticed by some other person while they were alive. If so, they may not have thought anything of it, or thought it necessary to approach the group at that time. As you said, campfires and voices could have been noticed.

Not sure about possible campfire restrictions last year, but that is a good point. We know from reporting that there was evidence of "fire in empty soup cans." While reading about 'hobo stoves', I noticed examples of people attempting versions that they claimed would produce little or no smoke. Perhaps it was one of the things that was being attempted.

Tin Can Camping Stove (and some optimization talk)

Tin Can Camping Stove (and some optimization talk) (wood burning stoves forum at permies)

So hopefully you and I can both make great tin can stoves in the future if the situation ever calls for it, and maybe some of the optimization process outlined here can help out on other projects as well. Check out the thread if you'd like to follow along.

permies.com

Interestingly, I also found another person who tested their tin can 'hobo stove' system by making ramen noodles (first picture below).

Complete Hobo Stove & Cooking Pots System Bundle

Complete Hobo Stove & Cooking Pots System Bundle, No Tools Build, for Dirt Cheap or Free - Easily Expandable and Infinitely Upgradable!

Complete Hobo Stove & Cooking Pots System Bundle, No Tools Build, for Dirt Cheap or Free - Easily Expandable and Infinitely Upgradable!: So things didn't end up the way you had planned which is unfortunate, but don't worry; for very little money or possibly free, you can still enjoy small warm...

www.instructables.com

From this other article, a few of the 'disadvantages' stand out in relation to this case.

DISADVANTAGES:

• Not suitable for use inside tents or enclosed spaces. There is a risk of suffocation and accumulation of combustion products.
• Not usable at high altitudes. This is related to the air pressure.

WHAT IS A HOBO STOVE? [STRUCTURE, FUNCTION, PROS AND CONS]

What Is A Hobo? [Structure, Function, Pros And Cons]

There are many ways to simply take your fireplace with you. The hobo stove is one of these ways. The hobo is a mobile campfire.

survival-kompass.de

Yes, the food situation (or lack thereof) remains puzzling based on current available information. However, there is a detail from the Gold Creek Campground information page that caught my attention.

"Campers are required to store food and other items in a hard sided vehicle or camping unit constructed of solid non-pliable material."

Gold Creek Campground - Gunnison RD

Grand Mesa Uncompahgre and Gunnison National Forests - Gold Creek Campground - Gunnison RD

Grand Mesa Uncompahgre and Gunnison National Forests - Gold Creek Campground - Gunnison RD

www.fs.usda.gov

Why? Oh. Maybe the group was (wisely) following these rules and the food cache just hasn't been discovered yet or wasn't known at the time of the original reporting.

"Black Bears are frequently observed on the GMUG National Forests. Typically Black Bears avoid people but they can learn to find food in campsites!"

Camping in Bear Country

Grand Mesa Uncompahgre and Gunnison National Forests - Recreation

Grand Mesa Uncompahgre and Gunnison National Forests - Recreation

www.fs.usda.gov

 

[IceIce9]

Could one or both sisters lost their home? Homelessness is a big problem in the Springs....

Their family members did not mention that they had.

 

[Cedars]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>
IMO, some posters are missing the key point: this family was not just looking for a temporary place to live, they were looking to escape completely and permanently from 'civilization': the entire way that modern humans live. They intended to rely exclusively on the natural environment and their own skills to live. Essentially to return to living like hunter-gatherers.

That means no government (including social workers), no urban infrastructure, no complying with laws, no purchasing food at grocery stores, no money, no health care, the whole shebang.

Perhaps this is a perspective commentators aren't familiar with, but it has a long tradition (for example Walden, the 1960's back to the land movement, and the book and movie Into the Wild). It currently manifests on platforms like YT among people who call themselves 'survivalists'.

This family refused their sister's offer to live 'off-grid' on a lot with an RV, generator and access to stores with necessities.

They insisted they could survive in the wilderness without purchasing anything, as they had learned everything they needed from YT videos.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/07/26/colorado-family-live-off-grid-dead/

Therefore, the fact that they didn't survive is not just a sad story about some homeless people.

My interest in this story is that, however much some people dream of the possibility of escaping civilization (or suviving after the fall of civilization), modern humans -unlike our so-called 'primitive' ancestors- don't seem to be capable of actually doing it.

JMO

 

[RedHaus]

... I do not believe there would have been any CPS intervention if the stepsister had called when they were leaving town, not unless the mother was exhibiting obvious behaviors that were dangerous or indicative of a high risk of danger.

RSBM

Apropos to your point @deadfoot13, here is a USA Today article from today that speaks to this topic, abeit indirectly.

When parents kill: Thousands of kids die each year from simple mistakes: "Each year in the United States, thousands of children lose their lives due to a mistake or faulty memory of otherwise responsible parents."

 

[RedHaus]

IMO, some posters are missing the key point: this family was not just looking for a temporary place to live, they were looking to escape completely and permanently from 'civilization': the entire way that modern humans live. They intended to rely exclusively on the natural environment and their own skills to live. Essentially to return to living like hunter-gatherers.

RSBM

While I agree with your comments, having been fascinated by folks succeeding at living off the grid by choice (wit the case of Christopher Knight in Maine, where I lived when he was 'discovered'), I do think its possible these folks had aimed to live in the wilderness like our ancesters did and, in particular, Native Americans - shifting from locations with the weather and food availability. The lack of winter clothing and boots, to me, indicates this 9500' elevation encampment may have been their intended 'spring / summer' location, with plans to shift elsewhere for 'fall / winter'. But they just never got to that.

Further, something indicated to LE that this group was depending upon groceries (per an article I posted ^^^), perhaps all the empty tin cans was LE's data for that presumption. So I wonder if the group was visiting Pitkin or Ohio City for supplies. As @Gophers_FTW indicated ^^^, where they camped provided them with ready escape hatches in case of trouble.

So like Gophers, I am inclined to think they passed away before winter, perhaps when it started getting cool in Aug/Sept.

All IMHO.

 

[RedHaus]

So how could they have brought so little, especially with a growing teen boy accompanying them? It would make sense if they intended to move. Or maybe they had a planned resupply that went awry somehow.

Why? Oh. Maybe the group was (wisely) following these rules and the food cache just hasn't been discovered yet or wasn't known at the time of the original reporting.

Both RSBM

Excellent points. I think the Bear Food Cache might be a distinct possibility and I wonder if LE searched for such a thing.

In the dark recesses of my mind, early on, I had a thought that perhaps someone (or someones) initially brought the group up to Gold Creek Campground with their gear and starter food supplies. LE has since stated that the group traveled to their location in a vehicle. We just don't know yet if it was still parked nearby or was driven away by someone.

If they were dropped off, perhaps that person / persons offered or were hired by the sisters to provide grocery provisions on some regular basis. But either something went terribly wrong with that plan and it never came to fruition, or, the group died unexpectedly (e.g. CO poisoning) and were found deceased by their "helpers" who did not report the fatalities.

Pure speculation.... just my imagination that I kept at bay until I saw your post, @ch_13.

 

[ch_13]

So like Gophers, I am inclined to think they passed away before winter, perhaps when it started getting cool in Aug/Sept.

I snipped this because I keep going back and forth on when they died.

On one hand, it would explain their lack of winter readiness if they were planning to leave, but they died unexpectedly in late summer/early fall.

On the other hand, their bodies were described as 'emaciated'. We know Trevala Jara saw them in early August. They would have to have brought almost no food with them to lose that much body mass in just one or two months. And in late summer they wouldn't have been trapped on the mountain. Upthread I posted some trail photos that show people walking around in short sleeves in early September 2022. They could have easily walked down or sought assistance.

Perhaps they died later than September but still before they expected winter to hit. In Colorado Springs it's still pretty temperate in October. But I know in Gunnison County there were some storms in late October that hit nearby areas pretty hard. Maybe they didn't expect the weather to change so quickly in the mountains.

 

[Friday Fan]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

IMO, some posters are missing the key point: this family was not just looking for a temporary place to live, they were looking to escape completely and permanently from 'civilization': the entire way that modern humans live. They intended to rely exclusively on the natural environment and their own skills to live. Essentially to return to living like hunter-gatherers.

That means no government (including social workers), no urban infrastructure, no complying with laws, no purchasing food at grocery stores, no money, no health care, the whole shebang.

Perhaps this is a perspective commentators aren't familiar with, but it has a long tradition (for example Walden, the 1960's back to the land movement, and the book and movie Into the Wild). It currently manifests on platforms like YT among people who call themselves 'survivalists'.

This family refused their sister's offer to live 'off-grid' on a lot with an RV, generator and access to stores with necessities.

They insisted they could survive in the wilderness without purchasing anything, as they had learned everything they needed from YT videos.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/07/26/colorado-family-live-off-grid-dead/

Therefore, the fact that they didn't survive is not just a sad story about some homeless people.

My interest in this story is that, however much some people dream of the possibility of escaping civilization (or suviving after the fall of civilization), modern humans -unlike our so-called 'primitive' ancestors- don't seem to be capable of actually doing it.

JMO

I agree.
Someone was probably watching too many movies or thought this was ideal.

There are people who think this way.

 

[Gophers_FTW]

RSBM

While I agree with your comments, having been fascinated by folks succeeding at living off the grid by choice (wit the case of Christopher Knight in Maine, where I lived when he was 'discovered'), I do think its possible these folks had aimed to live in the wilderness like our ancesters did and, in particular, Native Americans - shifting from locations with the weather and food availability. The lack of winter clothing and boots, to me, indicates this 9500' elevation encampment may have been their intended 'spring / summer' location, with plans to shift elsewhere for 'fall / winter'. But they just never got to that.

Further, something indicated to LE that this group was depending upon groceries (per an article I posted ^^^), perhaps all the empty tin cans was LE's data for that presumption. So I wonder if the group was visiting Pitkin or Ohio City for supplies. As @Gophers_FTW indicated ^^^, where they camped provided them with ready escape hatches in case of trouble.

So like Gophers, I am inclined to think they passed away before winter, perhaps when it started getting cool in Aug/Sept.

All IMHO.

The most important part of 'living off the grid' is the first part - living. I totally understand them wanting to stay at their high-alpine campsite in the summer and even into the fall, when the weather can still be pleasant during the day even if it gets quite chilly at night. The winter is a different animal though. They chose a location for their camp in a general area that is well-known for harsh weather and brutally cold temperatures during the winter.

Even the most novice 'survivalist' understands that you need appropriate food, water, shelter, and clothing to survive for an extended period of time anywhere. Especially up in the mountains during the winter. I don't see how they could have possibly considered trying to stay at that spot through the winter while lacking any one of those basic necessities, let alone several of them. It doesn't take an expert to calculate what the end result would almost certainly be. There must've been some other plan.

This is from the week before Christmas in 2022:

'Life-threatening cold': Colorado braces for arctic blast of cold, wind and snow

'Life-threatening cold': Colorado braces for arctic blast of cold, wind and snow

The coldest temperatures Colorado has seen in 32 years will be accompanied by snow and howling winds.

www.9news.com

They surely stocked up on food on the way to their destination, and possibly made additional trips into nearby towns. I don't think they would've been able to obtain supplies or food in the closest 'town' of Ohio City though.

"Today, no active businesses remain, but there's a lovely walking tour available. The town is occupied by a few seasonal residents and visiting 4x4 enthusiasts. Much of Ohio City is either for sale, boarded up, or downright abandoned."

Ohio City Colorado - A Modern Day Ghost Town

Ohio City Colorado - A Modern American Ghost Town

Today, no active businesses remain, but there's a lovely walking tour available. The town is occupied by a few seasonal residents and visiting 4x4 enthusiasts.

www.derelictdoug.net

 

[Cedars]

RSBM

While I agree with your comments, having been fascinated by folks succeeding at living off the grid by choice (wit the case of Christopher Knight in Maine, where I lived when he was 'discovered')

Yes, I read the book about him. Though his method of survival was 'steal whatever you need from other people nearby', which IMO is not a way to live peacefully and harmoniously in nature.

I've read many accounts by people who successfully went off and built a cabin by hand, and lived isolated, often hunting and foraging, for decades. Not to mention the pioneers.

But they all were practical, skilled people who knew exactly what they were doing, ie arriving in very early spring to maximize their prep time before winter, being expert at using tools such as an ax, chisel, hunting and dressing animals in the right season, bringing in necessities like a efficient cookstove, and having a regular supply run, or supply drop, perhaps by bush plane. And they kept in touch with family and friends through letters.

IMO, one big difficulty these days is that land is all privately owned or publicly managed. I think this family went into the mountains because it's less likely there'd be anyone around to kick them out.

I can't imagine where they could have gone in any of the warmer valleys of Colorado, where they'd be able to set up a shelter and camp in the wilderness all winter. Public land regulations require that you move every couple of weeks, and rangers do go around and check.

JMO

 

[Gophers_FTW]

RSBM

While I agree with your comments, having been fascinated by folks succeeding at living off the grid by choice (wit the case of Christopher Knight in Maine, where I lived when he was 'discovered')

Thanks for mentioning the case of Mr. Knight. I wasn't familiar with this one. Very interesting story. Impressive that was actually able to survive in a tent through the brutal Maine winters, though sometimes barely. He was only able to do it by stealing food, propane tanks, and other gear, as his "thoughts were dominated by surviving winter." He even made sure to fatten himself up each year, which "was a life-or-death necessity."

"A week of winter camping is an impressive achievement. An entire season is practically unheard of."

The Strange & Curious Tale of the Last True Hermit

The Strange Tale of the North Pond Hermit

For nearly thirty years, a phantom haunted the woods of Central Maine. Unseen and unknown, he lived in secret, creeping into homes in the dead of night and surviving on what he could steal. To the spooked locals, he became a legend—or maybe a myth. They wondered how he could possibly be real...

www.gq.com

 

[MrsWatson]

I wish we knew how they got to the site. If they did have help from an outside person with similar leanings, could something have happened to that person that prevented the re-supply? Say the person passed away unexpectedly or was in some way physically incapable of making the contact?


I hope LE has checked all of their online communications for the time leading up to their decision, to see if they were participating in any forums or groups that could have given some insight into their plans besides just what they watched on YouTube.

Of course, LE may not release any information, since there doesn't seem to be any foul play involved.

moo

 

[Cedars]

I wish we knew how they got to the site. If they did have help from an outside person with similar leanings, could something have happened to that person that prevented the re-supply? Say the person passed away unexpectedly or was in some way physically incapable of making the contact?


I hope LE has checked all of their online communications for the time leading up to their decision, to see if they were participating in any forums or groups that could have given some insight into their plans besides just what they watched on YouTube.

Of course, LE may not release any information, since there doesn't seem to be any foul play involved.

moo

Hard to say. I think, especially with a child involved, LE would be looking for any evidence that someone else was involved and perhaps abandoned them. However, LE don't consider it their job to satisfy public curiosity.

I remember reading a brief paragraph about Chris McCandless's death in 1992, and it jumped out at me just like this story does.

But it might have been forgotten except that Jon Krakauer (Into the Wild) happened to be an aspiring author and went to enormous lengths to track down and interview apparently every single person who had interacted with McCandless on his oddysey. I guess Krakauer had access to the journal, but still, I think he did an exceptional job at finding out and telling the bigger story, which is about dreams, and youthful idealism, and modern life.

I think this story would be quite different, but equally fascinating if the right person was able to research and tell it.

JMO

 

[iamnotagolem]

Chris McCandless story is regarded by most survivalists as a warning for dreamers who think they can do things that are wreckless and dangerous. Basically play stupid games win stupid prizes.

But this case involves a child, who had no say in his demise. It’s sad and horrifying. I can’t imagine my child starving to death before my eyes.

 

[RedHaus]

Chris McCandless story is regarded by most survivalists as a warning for dreamers who think they can do things that are wreckless and dangerous. Basically play stupid games win stupid prizes.

But this case involves a child, who had no say in his demise. It’s sad and horrifying. I can’t imagine my child starving to death before my eyes.

Can't disagree.

But with due respect, we don't yet know the COD of this trio. Last I read, LE was waiting on the tox report to determine COD and MOD. Although I'd be very surprised if MOD is anything other than accidental. That is, unless there was a fourth person who may have intentionally or neglegently abandoned them up there.

While LE has suggested hypothermia, malnourishnent, or CO poisoning as possible CODs, we just don't know yet what took their lives. I'd think, as well, the DOD (or Month of Death) would be important for that determination.

This may be a stupid question, but I wonder if the group died earlier (e.g July / Aug) rather than later, if the amount of decomposition in a year would cause a "mummified" body to look emaciated? In other words, if they died suddenly of acute poisoning by CO or some other substance (e.g mushroom), and lay where they passed for nearly a year in heat, cold, and snow pack, would their corpses appear as if they starved to death? Further, I wonder, as another poster mentioned, whether they had more food than one pack of Ramen noodles at their camp and their food cache was hidden from bears away from their camp?

While I agree with @Cedars that LE has no obligation to resolve all these mysterious puzzle pieces, I would think they'd at least release to the media the coroner's finding of COD, MOD and DOD.

Just my 2... or 3 cents. IMO.

 

[Cedars]

Chris McCandless story is regarded by most survivalists as a warning for dreamers who think they can do things that are wreckless and dangerous. Basically play stupid games win stupid prizes.

Yeah, sure, but I doubt compassion is part of a survivalist's tookit.

JMO

 

[Gophers_FTW]

Can't disagree.

But with due respect, we don't yet know the COD of this trio. Last I read, LE was waiting on the tox report to determine COD and MOD. Although I'd be very surprised if MOD is anything other than accidental. That is, unless there was a fourth person who may have intentionally or neglegently abandoned them up there.

While LE has suggested hypothermia, malnourishnent, or CO poisoning as possible CODs, we just don't know yet what took their lives. I'd think, as well, the DOD (or Month of Death) would be important for that determination.

This may be a stupid question, but I wonder if the group died earlier (e.g July / Aug) rather than later, if the amount of decomposition in a year would cause a "mummified" body to look emaciated? In other words, if they died suddenly of acute poisoning by CO or some other substance (e.g mushroom), and lay where they passed for nearly a year in heat, cold, and snow pack, would their corpses appear as if they starved to death? Further, I wonder, as another poster mentioned, whether they had more food than one pack of Ramen noodles at their camp and their food cache was hidden from bears away from their camp?

While I agree with @Cedars that LE has no obligation to resolve all these mysterious puzzle pieces, I would think they'd at least release to the media the coroner's finding of COD, MOD and DOD.

Just my 2... or 3 cents. IMO.

There is high public interest and their deaths happened in the national forest, so I expect the coroner's findings and the general investigational findings will be released at some point. Though maybe not all at the same time.

This information should help paint a clearer picture as to what took place. Indeed, they've already stated the 3 most likely CODs. You also mentioned the other most likely one - poisoning via food (mushroom, plant, etc.).

Some of the other information that would be helpful to know (if applicable):

-location and contents of their vehicle
-location and contents of food cache
-clothing worn when found, and in their possession
-arrangements the deceased adults made for their previous places of residence and major personal possessions (i.e. Did they truly prepare as if they were never returning to normal life?)
-any communication or contact they had with others after they departed Colorado Springs, especially once they got to their final destination

 

[Gophers_FTW]

I found a very recent and informative video tour of the Gold Creek Campground on the Campground Recon YT channel. Shows the campground sites, creeks, trails, access road, and parking areas nearby. It was recorded just a few days before the bodies were discovered, per the channel owner in the comments.

"Gold Creek Campground is located less than 7 miles north of Ohio City Colorado with views of the Fossil Ridge Wilderness Area. 4 free campsites in the campground are first-come, first-served with a vault toilet in the loop by sites 3 & 4. Lamphier Creek joins Gold Creek near the campsites. Several dispersed campsites are in the area including one with horse corrals near the trailheads. There is no cell service in the area. There are a number of hiking trails nearby in the Wilderness Area."

Gold Creek Campground - Gunnison National Forest

 

[Gophers_FTW]

Bravo, @Gophers_FTW! That's also where I suggested they had set up camp in my post ^^^ (image below). So I agree.

But you also found what could be the cabin that LE referenced was 1/2 mile from their campsite. Just down the creek.

It's really hard to comprehend their demise... given they may have had a variety of escape hatches in a perfect world.

Hopefully we'll get some missing pieces to this puzzle from LE.

View attachment 439456

ICYMI - Found another data point to support this location for their campsite in one of the early news stories from KDVR. Starting at 47 seconds in, it shows an overhead view of the general area and then zooms in significantly to the supposed spot where their "makeshift campsite" was found. I believe this location would be slightly to the right of the red oval in the above map, but within the blue oval in the other map you posted on July 15. Nice work!