CO - James Holmes Trial Discussion - Begins April 27, 2015 # 7

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  • #421
I found a lot of similarities between JH's notebook ramblings and the incoherent YouTube videos made by Jared Lee Loughner - especially the equations and (il)logicical parts.

http://youtu.be/nHoaZaLbqB4

I believe he (JLL) was also diagnosed with Schizophrenia.

Although I don't believe JH was insane, I do feel he was/is extremely sick. I guess I feel pity for him. What really gets me too is that he seemed to be reaching out for help to psychiatrists for help or even to give warning - even confessing he wanted to murder people. Can't figure out why he wasn't committed or seen as a danger.


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  • #422
about the meds...I know that wellbutrin can really affect patients...didn't know if he was on it or not. Just remember the guy today said that he was given some meds to take to alleviate the symptoms of other meds he was on but I don't remember him being specific, other than saying Cogentin might have been one...
 
  • #423
I found a lot of similarities between JH's notebook ramblings and the incoherent YouTube videos made by Jared Lee Loughner - especially the equations and (il)logicical parts.

http://youtu.be/nHoaZaLbqB4

I believe he (JLL) was also diagnosed with Schizophrenia.

Although I don't believe JH was insane, I do feel he was/is extremely sick. I guess I feel pity for him. What really gets me too is that he seemed to be reaching out for help to psychiatrists for help or even to give warning - even confessing he wanted to murder people. Can't figure out why he wasn't committed or seen as a danger.


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I agree. He wasn't held on a 5150 psychiatric hold because Dr Lynn Fenton thought because he quit school he would no longer be a problem even though she reported him. It was her who had the ultimate decision. Biggest mistake she ever made in her life. IMHO
 
  • #424
Oh my goodness - this commander just could not grasp what was going on for 15 minutes- he needed his ambulances all lining up a block while folks are bleeding to dealth. It was so frustrating. As his incomp[entance increases you can hear subordinates trying to tell the guy we need to go get bleeding to dealth humans. He just could not get it. At 2330 head of cops requested to meet with him face to face in front of theatre NOW!

He was unreal..............................

Ambulances just sitting around awaiting for this dude to figure out what he was gonna do

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfEFo30J4eA

That was so hard to listen to.
 
  • #425
I agree. He wasn't held on a 5150 psychiatric hold because Dr Lynn Fenton thought because he quit school he would no longer be a problem even though she reported him. It was her who had the ultimate decision. Biggest mistake she ever made in her life. IMHO

I wonder how she deals with that knowledge? It would eat at me every night...
 
  • #426
I agree. He wasn't held on a 5150 psychiatric hold because Dr Lynn Fenton thought because he quit school he would no longer be a problem even though she reported him. It was her who had the ultimate decision. Biggest mistake she ever made in her life. IMHO

I can't wait to hear her testify.


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  • #427
Going with what is known so far....

My personal opinion is that he is on the autism spectrum - more like the Asperger's form than regular autism even though that dx has been removed from DSM-V. That is the foundation of his problems. Layered on top of that are a depressive disorder with psychotic features. In addition, he is very intelligent, which can cause additional problems.

Assuming that I basically have that right, his decision to commit a mass murder, although a highly statistically unlikely thing for someone to do, does not entirely surprise me, for these reasons:

- people on the autism spectrum often have problems with depression, anxiety, ADHD, etc. It is nothing out of the ordinary for someone on the spectrum to also have these problems. So he is not unusual in that regard - to be on the spectrum and then to also have a mood disorder

- as people on the spectrum grow in age, they slowly become more aware of how different they are from others. It is very normal that JH, as he got into his late teens/early 20's, would begin to feel increasingly socially isolated as his peers' social skills and developmental levels exceeded his. This social isolation and inability to make and keep friendships and romantic relationships would cause him to feel frustrated and helpless.

- an additional difficulty for JH is that he is very intelligent; this reduces the number of people who he will feel he can truly relate to/connect with on an intellectual level. Even if he had none of the other problems, this issue alone could cause him some difficulties

- neuroscience was a major part of his life - not only as an intellectual interest (something that would be very important for an intelligent person on the autism spectrum), but also as an area where he could succeed (unlike the social side of his life); I think that his burgeoning awareness that he was not succeeding in graduate school the way his peers were was a major contributing factor to his depression

- I believe he had a loss of a relationship with a girl prior to the shooting; this would be another major trigger for feelings of isolation, rejection, failure, and perhaps rage as a result of those painful feelings

- as depression develops and deepens, the hopelessness, feelings of being disconnected from others, obsessive thoughts about being rejected/hurt, anger, and wanting relief from these thoughts and feelings increase.

- males are more likely to externalize their anger, so projecting his hate out onto others, and obsessing about violence, rather than committing suicide doesn't surprise me

As I learn more about JH, I see many parallels to Elliott Rodgers. ER was more fixated on not having relationships than JH appears to be, but in terms of being on the spectrum and having severe depression, and then choosing mass murder to cope with those feelings, they are very similar.

I also see some parallels to Seung-Hui Cho (Virginia Tech mass murderer).

Again just my preliminary humble opinion
 
  • #428
about the meds...I know that wellbutrin can really affect patients...didn't know if he was on it or not. Just remember the guy today said that he was given some meds to take to alleviate the symptoms of other meds he was on but I don't remember him being specific, other than saying Cogentin might have been one...

Cogentin is used to decrease some of the side effects antipsychotics. Antipsychotics block dopamine in the body and anytime that happens, there are usually side effects - which include things like muscle spasms and rigidity and increased restlessness. He is currently prescribed the antipsychotic, Risperdal. So he is probably taking Cogentin to decrease some of these unwanted side effects.
 
  • #429
Going with what is known so far....

My personal opinion is that he is on the autism spectrum - more like the Asperger's form than regular autism even though that dx has been removed from DSM-V. That is the foundation of his problems. Layered on top of that are a depressive disorder with psychotic features. In addition, he is very intelligent, which can cause additional problems.

Assuming that I basically have that right, his decision to commit a mass murder, although a highly statistically unlikely thing for someone to do, does not entirely surprise me, for these reasons:

- people on the autism spectrum often have problems with depression, anxiety, ADHD, etc. It is nothing out of the ordinary for someone on the spectrum to also have these problems. So he is not unusual in that regard - to be on the spectrum and then to also have a mood disorder

- as people on the spectrum grow in age, they slowly become more aware of how different they are from others. It is very normal that JH, as he got into his late teens/early 20's, would begin to feel increasingly socially isolated as his peers' social skills and developmental levels exceeded his. This social isolation and inability to make and keep friendships and romantic relationships would cause him to feel frustrated and helpless.

- an additional difficulty for JH is that he is very intelligent; this reduces the number of people who he will feel he can truly relate to/connect with on an intellectual level. Even if he had none of the other problems, this issue alone could cause him some difficulties

- neuroscience was a major part of his life - not only as an intellectual interest (something that would be very important for an intelligent person on the autism spectrum), but also as an area where he could succeed (unlike the social side of his life); I think that his burgeoning awareness that he was not succeeding in graduate school the way his peers were was a major contributing factor to his depression

- I believe he had a loss of a relationship with a girl prior to the shooting; this would be another major trigger for feelings of isolation, rejection, failure, and perhaps rage as a result of those painful feelings

- as depression develops and deepens, the hopelessness, feelings of being disconnected from others, obsessive thoughts about being rejected/hurt, anger, and wanting relief from these thoughts and feelings increase.

- males are more likely to externalize their anger, so projecting his hate out onto others, and obsessing about violence, rather than committing suicide doesn't surprise me

As I learn more about JH, I see many parallels to Elliott Rodgers. ER was more fixated on not having relationships than JH appears to be, but in terms of being on the spectrum and having severe depression, and then choosing mass murder to cope with those feelings, they are very similar.

I also see some parallels to Seung-Hui Cho (Virginia Tech mass murderer).

Again just my preliminary humble opinion

Good analysis! Add to all of that a lack of empathy and his obsession to kill people since he was a child and you have essentially the makings of a monster. What is sad is he really was just dealt a very bad hand by nature. I wonder how many of us, given the same limitations, would fare much better.


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  • #430
I'm not going to lie I got a little teary when he sad he got tears in his eyes at night before he goes to sleep because of regrets of the shooting. I thought he would come across as a monster but he seems like a normal guy. When DR asked what GF and people thought of him he said shy, kind. smart.

There are no winners here.
 
  • #431
Going with what is known so far....

My personal opinion is that he is on the autism spectrum - more like the Asperger's form than regular autism even though that dx has been removed from DSM-V. That is the foundation of his problems. Layered on top of that are a depressive disorder with psychotic features. In addition, he is very intelligent, which can cause additional problems.

Assuming that I basically have that right, his decision to commit a mass murder, although a highly statistically unlikely thing for someone to do, does not entirely surprise me, for these reasons:

- people on the autism spectrum often have problems with depression, anxiety, ADHD, etc. It is nothing out of the ordinary for someone on the spectrum to also have these problems. So he is not unusual in that regard - to be on the spectrum and then to also have a mood disorder

- as people on the spectrum grow in age, they slowly become more aware of how different they are from others. It is very normal that JH, as he got into his late teens/early 20's, would begin to feel increasingly socially isolated as his peers' social skills and developmental levels exceeded his. This social isolation and inability to make and keep friendships and romantic relationships would cause him to feel frustrated and helpless.

- an additional difficulty for JH is that he is very intelligent; this reduces the number of people who he will feel he can truly relate to/connect with on an intellectual level. Even if he had none of the other problems, this issue alone could cause him some difficulties

- neuroscience was a major part of his life - not only as an intellectual interest (something that would be very important for an intelligent person on the autism spectrum), but also as an area where he could succeed (unlike the social side of his life); I think that his burgeoning awareness that he was not succeeding in graduate school the way his peers were was a major contributing factor to his depression

- I believe he had a loss of a relationship with a girl prior to the shooting; this would be another major trigger for feelings of isolation, rejection, failure, and perhaps rage as a result of those painful feelings

- as depression develops and deepens, the hopelessness, feelings of being disconnected from others, obsessive thoughts about being rejected/hurt, anger, and wanting relief from these thoughts and feelings increase.

- males are more likely to externalize their anger, so projecting his hate out onto others, and obsessing about violence, rather than committing suicide doesn't surprise me

As I learn more about JH, I see many parallels to Elliott Rodgers. ER was more fixated on not having relationships than JH appears to be, but in terms of being on the spectrum and having severe depression, and then choosing mass murder to cope with those feelings, they are very similar.

I also see some parallels to Seung-Hui Cho (Virginia Tech mass murderer).

Again just my preliminary humble opinion

You sound right on with your diagnosis. Are you in the medical profession?
 
  • #432
That is really sad. Has he not found a medication that helps quiet the voices? I know they are pretty effective in doing that, calming the negative symptoms like hearing voices.

No he's tried everything. His meds help but nothing takes them away. My son is very smart too and handsome. It's a shame for people to have MI. I compare it to a brain cancer. The wiring is all wrong. No one asks to be born with it. :(
 
  • #433
I feel like he pretty much meets all the symptoms for schizophrenia. His notebook really solidified this for me.

I don't think there is anything with him being a sociopath, having autism or simply depression. Everything he was experiencing can be explained by schizophenia. It covers a wide range of symptoms - many similar to those experienced with psychotic features of bipolar. His illogical thinking, blunted affect. He said how he was not afraid of failure. Bizarre clothing, appearance and sexual behavior. Avolition, no drive. He was at the age when it generally appears. I believe the theory about schizophrenia that some people are genetically predisposed to the disease and psychological stressors activate this genetic predisposition is pretty accurate for him. His school life was deteriorating and he was losing contact with reality. But again, he still was aware that it was wrong to kill people.
 
  • #434
I feel like he pretty much meets all the symptoms for schizophrenia. His notebook really solidified this for me.

I don't think there is anything with him being a sociopath, having autism or simply depression. Everything he was experiencing can be explained by schizophenia. It covers a wide range of symptoms - many similar to those experienced with psychotic features of bipolar. His illogical thinking, blunted affect. He said how he was not afraid of failure. Bizarre clothing, appearance and sexual behavior. Avolition, no drive. He was at the age when it generally appears. I believe the theory about schizophrenia that some people are genetically predisposed to the disease and psychological stressors activate this genetic predisposition is pretty accurate for him. His school life was deteriorating and he was losing contact with reality. But again, he still was aware that it was wrong to kill people.

Thanks. He also has schizophrenia in his family. My son has schizoaffective disorder which is a form of schizophrenia and everything you have described sounds like my son too. It didn't surface until his 20"s and after he went off to college. Downhill from there. Been going through Drs, hospitals, and meds twelve years.
 
  • #435
Can someone provide a link to just the video of the interview that was played today?

Also, thanks again for all the great posts with tweets and especially the transcript from today!
 
  • #436
  • #437

Thanks!

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  • #438
  • #439
Thanks. He also has schizophrenia in his family. My son has schizoaffective disorder which is a form of schizophrenia and everything you have described sounds like my son too. It didn't surface until his 20"s and after he went off to college. Downhill from there. Been going through Drs, hospitals, and meds twelve years.

Well he is definitely lucky to have your support. I know it tears families apart and is really hard to watch, being unable to help someone you care about. But having a family member involved in a patients care really makes a huge difference in their ability to cope.
 
  • #440
Well he is definitely lucky to have your support. I know it tears families apart and is really hard to watch, being unable to help someone you care about. But having a family member involved in a patients care really makes a huge difference in their ability to cope.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.
 
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