CO - Jessica Hernandez, 17, killed by police after LEO struck by stolen car

[katydid23]

Did the police know all the passengers? Did they know they were all in it together? What if one was kidnapped, or under threat to stay in the car, or simply stuck? Did the police know all that before they decided to put 5 lives in danger?

I have no problem with the PD discussing a possible change to this policy. Maybe they should do so. But the question remains, with THIS CASE, did the officers follow policy guidelines? You cannot punish these officers if in fact they followed current protocol.

 

[sherlockh]

If someone in the car was being kept their against their will, would smiling, waving and letting the car just drive away really be likely to be much help? What would you suggest they do instead under those circumstances (a stolen car full of teens heading toward one officer and most likely making a run for it)? TIA

I doubt they were all smiling and waving. If there is even the slightest chance that there are innocent people in the car then police is not allowed to start shooting at them and risking their lives. That is the problem here. All the police can do is try to get out of the way. They are not allowed to kill innocent people in self-defense. JMO.

 

[katydid23]

I doubt they were all smiling and waving. If there is even the slightest chance that there are innocent people in the car then police is not allowed to start shooting at them and risking their lives. That is the problem here. All the police can do is try to get out of the way. They are not allowed to kill innocent people in self-defense. JMO.

They did not kill innocent bystanders. The only person that was shot was the driver, who was in a stolen car, and refusing to stop, and was headed towards an officer that was pinned between the car and a fence. The witness in the car even confirmed that.

 

[Yoda]

I doubt they were all smiling and waving. If there is even the slightest chance that there are innocent people in the car then police is not allowed to start shooting at them and risking their lives. That is the problem here. All the police can do is try to get out of the way. They are not allowed to kill innocent people in self-defense. JMO.

They weren't trying to kill innocent people. They were aiming at the driver. Refer to the previously posted photos of the vehicle to see where bullet holes are.

 

[Confusion]

I doubt they were all smiling and waving. If there is even the slightest chance that there are innocent people in the car then police is not allowed to start shooting at them and risking their lives. That is the problem here. All the police can do is try to get out of the way. They are not allowed to kill innocent people in self-defense. JMO.

I don't believe that's what the laws say, although it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. I believe they are allowed to use whatever force is required to meet the threat to themselves and others. You obviously believe the threat of an innocent passenger getting hit by a stray bullet is greater than the threat of an officer dying from being run down by the car. I'm glad we'll never know the answer in this case since only the driver was shot and only the officer's leg was hit by the car. We'll also never know if he would have been injured more severely if she hadn't been shot, or if she might have slammed on the brakes and/or turned sharply enough to miss him.

The what ifs don't really matter to me, I'm more concerned with whether the right decision was made considering the information they had at the time. They knew the car was stolen, that it started moving when they approached it, and that it was headed toward one of them. Unless and until I hear that there was some reason why they should have known differently, I'll accept what's been said so far. MOO

 

[sherlockh]

They weren't trying to kill innocent people. They were aiming at the driver. Refer to the previously posted photos of the vehicle to see where bullet holes are.

That is not the point. It is the risk they took that matters. The risk of hitting an innocent person when there are 5 people inside a small space such as a car is considerable. Such risks should be avoided at all costs. JMO.

 

[katydid23]

That is not the point. It is the risk they took that matters. The risk of hitting an innocent person when there are 5 people inside a small space such as a car is considerable. Such risks should be avoided at all costs. JMO.

Which innocents are you speaking of? The ones joyriding in the stolen car?

And when you say 'at all costs'---does that mean at the expense of their own lives?

 

[al66pine]

Denver LEO discharging firearm, relevant (imo) text (2) and (4) re use of deadly force & reasonable belief, defense, etc.
My bolding & underscoring below and my comments in blue.

18-1-707. Use of physical force in making an arrest or in preventing an escape

(2) A peace officer is justified in using deadly physical force upon another person for a purpose specified in subsection (1) of this section only when he reasonably believes that it is necessary:
(a) To defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of deadly physical force; or ...

(4) For purposes of this section, a reasonable belief that a person has committed an offense means a reasonable belief in facts or circumstances which if true would in law constitute an offense. If the believed facts or circumstances would not in law constitute an offense, an erroneous though not unreasonable belief that the law is otherwise does not render justifiable the use of force to make an arrest or to prevent an escape from custody...

SURVEY: Esp for those who believe DPD LEO shooting of JH was not justified, why not?
---Did LEO reasonably believe deadly force was necessary against driver & moving vehicle? para 2
------Or was LEO's belief unreasonable?
---Did LEO have reasonable belief that it was necessary to defend self or 3d person (other LEO) against moving vehicle? para 4
------Or was LEO's belief unreasonable?
---Did LEO reasonably believe driver was using or was imminently ready to use moving vehicle w deadly physical force? para 4
------ Or was LEO's belief unreasonable?
--- Or something else?

Feel free to copy and paste from applicable answers above and to add comments.

___________________________________________________________________________________________
FYI- Text of entire section of statute is at post #5 (or ~5)
18-1-707. Use of physical force in making an arrest or in preventing an escape, C.R.S. 18-1-707 (2014)
http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/​

 

[Kimberlyd125]

That is not the point. It is the risk they took that matters. The risk of hitting an innocent person when there are 5 people inside a small space such as a car is considerable. Such risks should be avoided at all costs. JMO.

If that vehicle would have been allowed to leave that alley, there would have been a chase. How many innocent citizens would have been in the path of that chase? Hard to know. But I would be willing to bet there would have been a lot more than four.

If she was willing to flee with cops yelling at her to stop with guns drawn, IMO she wouldn't have just slowly left the scene and pulled over when a patrol car got behind her.

IMO if that vehicle would have fled that alley, not only the 4 passengers but countless other innocent people would have been in danger.

JMO

 

[sherlockh]

If that vehicle would have been allowed to leave that alley, there would have been a chase. How many innocent citizens would have been in the path of that chase? Hard to know. But I would be willing to bet there would have been a lot more than four.

If she was willing to flee with cops yelling at her to stop with guns drawn, IMO she wouldn't have just slowly left the scene and pulled over when a patrol car got behind her.

IMO if that vehicle would have fled that alley, not only the 4 passengers but countless other innocent people would have been in danger.

JMO

If that is the rule then every stolen car that tries to get away should be shot at, and the question if the driver was trying to kill the police officer does not even matter anymore. The car could be full with babies but who cares. Shoot to kill. Case closed. JMO.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

If that is the rule then every stolen car that tries to get away should be shot at, and the question if the driver was trying to kill the police officer does not even matter anymore. The car could be full with babies but who cares. Shoot to kill. Case closed. JMO.

No and I didn't say that.
I never mentioned rules. I am speaking of this case. That car. That alley. That driver. Those officers. Those passengers.
They had the car in an alley.
IMO it would have been much worse to let that car leave that alley. More lives would have been in jeopardy.

It was and is my opinion.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I think people forget that LE has a split second to make decisions that we can look back on and question every aspect of.

 

[sherlockh]

I think people forget that LE has a split second to make decisions that we can look back on and question every aspect of.

Why? Because the police says so? Their shots were a bit too perfect for the car to have a high speed. It looks like they started shooting as soon as the car moved and had plenty of time to aim. Besides the car would have gone straight through the fence if it had any speed by then. The police guy probably just didn't notice the fence behind him and slipped, because he was too busy shooting an already dead girl by then. Sorry, but the whole story of a speeding car coming at them doesn't ring true. JMO.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Why? Because the police says so? Their shots were a bit too perfect for the car to have a high speed. It looks like they started shooting as soon as the car moved and had plenty of time to aim. Besides the car would have gone straight through the fence if it had any speed by then. The police guy probably just didn't notice the fence behind him and slipped, because he was too busy shooting an already dead girl by then. Sorry, but the whole story of a speeding car coming at them doesn't ring true. JMO.

I disagree.
Shots too perfect? Ok. They are trained to make perfect shots in a high pressure situation.
Didn't you argue that they could have hit innocent people in the car? Now you are saying the shots were perfect? Sounds like they did a good job to me. Perfect shots lesson the possibility of hitting the passengers.

Also, in my opinion, from looking at the pictures, the car did not hit the fence directly. IMO the major impact point was the driver's side front quarter panel/bumper. I believe it hit the brick wall, barely hitting the wood fence.

JMO

 

[Elley Mae]

IMO, much of this debate would be irrelevant if, based upon my interpretation of the deceased own social media seeming to indicate the possibility of suicide by cop. I am on Tapatalk and do not know how to link her own twitter comments alluding to dying by cops for her lifestyle. IMO she romanticized being a "" because she thought it was cool. I mean she was immature as well as criminal. I feel for her family, but I have little pity for the lifestyle she CHOSE. I am heartily sick to death of cop bashing. We need these officers To make these split second decisions to ensure that we live in a relatively peaceful society. Some few here say not to judge her until evidence is in, well don't judge LE either. It isn't a rumor that she regularly engaged in criminal, illegal behavior. It is FACT. I hate to see a young woman's life end, but she wrote her own story here. JMO. I am so very happy to see so much support for LE on this thread BTW. Often enough we have to question, but this case is way to clear cut to me.

bbm, Exactly, all decisions were made by her, she WAS the driver. Hopefully the passengers will change their ways and find other forms of entertainment.

 

[Opie]

I also have a problem with the degree of "innocence" of the other passengers in that car. If they were hanging out with the driver of that car, they must have known her. If they knew her, they knew she was not "innocent." As the old expression goes, if you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. People are known by the company they keep. These were not people on their way home from choir practice.

Also, it's hard to imagine someone would have a baby in a car that had been sitting in an alley blasting loud music for a significant period of time. To me, that possibility would be quite a stretch.

All just my opinion, and yes, I know everyone has one.

 

[nrdsb4]

I've also wondered about the possibility of suicide by cop. We'll have to wait for all the facts to become known, though.

 

[ninij9]

Did the police know all the passengers? Did they know they were all in it together? What if one was kidnapped, or under threat to stay in the car, or simply stuck? Did the police know all that before they decided to put 5 lives in danger?

I don't see it as the Police putting them all in danger. I see it as the driver, car stealing perp that put their lives in danger. Oh and themselves for joy riding in a stolen car. MOO.

 

[Woodland]

Right. It is not optimum. But what do you do if the driver is coming right at you or your partner? Let your partner get run over and save the suspects in the stolen car that are refusing to give up when ordered to stop? Why should an officer put the suspects safety above his own?

Once again, someone stating something as fact that is not proven. The driver being dead or alive when hitting the officer is not an issue with some, it seems. I have no problem with who thinks what with no actual facts.

This type of LE shooting will continue imo, with many folks supporting that LE should go ahead and take unarmed people out for criminal acts - petty or otherwise. Looking forward to more LE shootings of this type and the results. Retaliation may be a consequence - LE is picking their battles, good luck with that. What are they looking for btw? A raise in pay? Or is the court system frustrating cops to the point they are taking matters into their own hands? Idk.

 

[branwynbreeze]

I find this comment by an alleged passenger of the car interesting.



The fact that officers didn't yell any "commands" before firing suggests they where caught off guard by the driver's actions and had no time to yell before they had to act in self defense.

The second thing that caught my attention was that this alleged passenger states that the car did strike the officer. If this is accurate, the car did strike the officer, that caused his leg to be broken and he didn't injure himself while jumping out of the way of the stolen car. JMO.

http://www.montereyherald.com/gener...ear-how-officer-was-hurt-when-teen-was-killed

I've been trying to get how this went down straight in my head. One of my theories is Jessie made some motion inside car that LE thought she was reaching for weapon. I don't think LE could tell ages/genders immediately, but knew there were more than 2.

Jessie was what my dad might call a chola, perhaps cholo instead due to dress. She was out of control, walking a very thin line. It's tragic on many levels, but she did not learn anything from past run ins with LE. No formal training to come to that opinion, just 15 nieces and nephews and Hispanic family.