CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #45*ARREST*

[MassGuy]

Any prosecutor who "knows" they will win a case probably shouldn't be a prosecutor because they are too smug. In reality, no prosecutor knows what the jury decision is going to be.

The prosecution filed first degree charges on Casey Anthony and they had a body. How did that work out? O.J. Simpson?

JMO

You misstated what I said.

I said, “they know they can win.”

There is a huge distinction there.

This isn’t about being “smug,” rather, it is about being confident in the case you have.

The speed at which these charges were brought, wreaks of one thing:

Strength.

 

[gitana1]

Great post and I'm complete agreement. I see Ma saying, "That child is a Frazee!" and her being a big factor in a push for custody. They're a clan and Kelsey would never be a part of it.

I also wanted to reply to your reply, to me, in the closed thread, regarding our different perceptions on the issue of KK. We are in agreement on the criminal and moral culpability of PF and, yes, I'm aware we don't prosecute people for thought crime and psychological traits. We're also in agreement on what the evidence shows - PF killed Kelsey. I understand that you see sexism in the loathing of KK but I think you may be ascribing a POV to others that isn't there. I can only speak for myself, so I will. I stand by my take on her actions and see her as dangerous and it has f-k all to do with her being female. Quite a few people were suspicious of that guy who shoes donkeys with PF. Had he done what KK did, I'd be just as disgusted at this deal and see him in the same light. The sex of a criminal makes no difference, to me. We just have to agree to disagree. Some see her more culpable than others. Some seem to see her as PF's puppet. I don't. I see them more as a team. A couple of dangerous psychos who fed off of and fueled each other. Lethal. I'm thrilled he's going down but really pissed she isn't.

I don't see sexism in the loathing of KK. That would be illogical.

And again, we all think she is dangerous. Who has said she's not?

<modnsip>

My issue is with illogical twisting of evidence or facts to make KK the actual murderer, or the mastermind or as culpable as PF.

That's it.

Is there any one of us who has said we don't loathe her? These are two different concepts: 1) Loathing a monster. 2) Finding the excusing of PF as an unwitting foil or terrified abuse victim and blaming, instead, someone who didn't murder KB, astounding and possibly rooted in sexism.

Those are two, totally different concepts.

 

[MyBelle]

There is already so much evidence of premeditated murder that I cannot imagine locating the body will be determinative. I think KK for her many flaws will still be a believable witness and her story will be backed up with corroborating evidence. The last time I remember people thinking a DA was desperate and didn’t have enough to convict, next thing we knew Watts pleaded guilty on all counts. I think in high profile cases, in particular, DAs do not bring cases they can’t win lightly. MOO.

I don't know anyone who thought the DA didn't have enough to convict Watts. Within days, Watts confessed to the murder of his wife and unborn child and also confessed to hiding three bodies. That's pretty compelling evidence, imo.

 

[NanZDrew]

Nan, I think this would be too small. If you look at the Frazee property you'll see larger round ones IIRC.

I think it is on the small side, too. I have one just like it. You could get the body in there, but the tote would be snug if it would fit at all. Since this was based on KK's testimony, she would have misjudged the size of the trough. A 250 gallon would be more like what you would expect.

 

[MassGuy]

I don't know anyone who thought the DA didn't have enough to convict Watts. Within days, Watts confessed to the murder of his wife and unborn child and also confessed to hiding three bodies. That's pretty compelling evidence, imo.

No. There were numerous people who believed that Shanann killed the kids.

People who thought the DA didn’t have enough evidence for there not to be reasonable doubt.

People who wanted to believe that CW was partially innocent, despite the staggering amount of evidence against him.

<modsnip>

 

[Steelslady]

PF and KB were not married

It's ok, otto means well, but for some reason they keep posting that they were married, and many of us corrected this. Perhaps it's just one of those things that gets stuck in your head, even though you know differently, you still say it or type it.

 

[gitana1]

Respect to you, I think you know that, gitana1.

I just don't see anything sexist here. There are women who can be manipulative with men- most don't partake in a murder or ask their man to murder the one she is angry and jealous of. But there are other ways that some women, just like some men, can manipulate someone of the opposite sex to do something they either don't have the courage to do themself or they expect that person to prove their love for them. For example, let's say a man is having an affair, his side love threatens to end it because she wants a commitment, or she wants him to move in with her- some men do this. Same in the opposite direction, too.

I don't think anyone had intentions of being sexist in terms of Krystal. I think every one of us is just too horrified at what came out during that hearing. Unfortunately, SF plead the 5th, and Patrick isn't talking, so naturally, everyone is picking apart things Krystal has said and done.

I can only imagine what would happen, if Patrick told his side- I sincerely doubt he's going to agree with Krystal on everything that happened and agree he is a manipulative jerk that killed a beautiful and lovely lady, the mother of his child. I think if he ever does talk, he's going to put the blame all on Krystal. When he told her to come to Kelsey's townhouse because "you have a mess to clean up"- that comment leaves me with many questions, to be honest. Why would Krystal have a mess to clean up- he's the one who wanted her gone, right? So why would Krystal go along with this and do it? Help build a fire, watch him carry the tote from his truck- the tote he said Kelsey was in. Do we believe that she didn't truly know that Kelsey was in there? I mean, gross as this sounds, wouldn't she have wanted to know that Kelsey was really in that tote, just in case she got caught by LE for the actions she partook in the past three months?

Again- I truly respect you, and I don't want to argue over this. Perhaps we just see it a little differently, and that's ok. That's what makes WS great- the various thoughts and opinions.

I love ya', friend. But I'm not sure how this is relevant to what I've been discussing. She did not murder KB. She was not the mastermind. He was not controlled by her and terrified or duped by her into doing what he did. I believe she wanted KB dead as much as PF did. I think she knew exactly what was going to happen. But there is no evidence she murdered KB or controlled or coerced or manipulated PF into doing so.

Once again, there are different charges and possible sentences for different conduct for a reason. Being an accessory isn't the same as being a murderer. Being a conspirator is not the same as being a murderer. People can feel emotions about this as much as they would like but the reality is that society has determined there is a difference in moral culpability and hence in legal culpability between accessory, conspirator and actual murder.

Failing to see him for what he is and capable of wanting to and indeed engineering the murder of the mother of his child, is suspect to me.

 

[NanZDrew]

Maybe he was sendin up smoke signals with the oil !

For sure. Oil makes black, thick smoke. I remember some from the area remarking that any fire back in November while it was still dry, would have drawn lots of attention. Even though there farm was hidden, there still may have been smoke that was visible.

 

[NanZDrew]

What? KK sent Kelsey baby clothes??? Where did you read that?

Is this for real? Were they KK's daughter's hand me downs?

 

[Steelslady]

Love is a many splendored thing...???....moo

Ok, well, my response to that is "On Top of Old Smokey".

 

[Steelslady]

More like a 12 hour drive. 780 miles through mountains.

She's got a lot of energy.

Ah, but she slept at her friend's house to cut, which was halfway, I believe, before she arrived at PF's ranch. I do remember, though, that during the other times she came, she drove straight through.

 

[MassGuy]

For those asking, KK’s statement to investigators about buying the baby clothing and toys, as well as the whole pizza/nap thing, is mentioned here.

“Krystal said she had come out here and she had brought a T-shirt and some little toys for Kaylee.”

After the fire, Slater said Lee told him Frazee told her to take a nap. She told Slater he brought her two slices of pizza and an Ibuprofen because she had a headache.

@NanZDrew @Steelslady

Courtroom updates: Preliminary hearing for Patrick Frazee, who is accused of killing Kelsey Berreth

 

[NanZDrew]

Ah, but she slept at her friend's house to cut, which was halfway, I believe, before she arrived at PF's ranch. I do remember, though, that during the other times she came, she drove straight through.

Just couldn't wait to see PF.

 

[MyBelle]

You misstated what I said.

I said, “they know they can win.”

There is a huge distinction there.

This isn’t about being “smug,” rather, it is about being confident in the case you have.

The speed at which these charges were brought, wreaks of one thing:

Strength.

Yes you did say that but no prosecutor "knows" they will win a case. They can be confident but I seriously doubt the prosecutor in this case would be engaging in an expensive search of the landfill if he already "knows" he will win the case. The judge certainly didn't agree with him that SF should testify at the prelim. hearing.

The speed the charges were brought wasn't all that fast. It was nearly a month after KB went missing and only after blood was found by CB, and KK, a proved liar, told her story.

JMO

 

[Steelslady]

I don't see sexism in the loathing of KK. That would be illogical.

And again, we all think she is dangerous. Who has said she's not?

<modsnip>

My issue is with illogical twisting of evidence or facts to make KK the actual murderer, or the mastermind or as culpable as PF.

That's it.

Is there any one of us who has said we don't loathe her? These are two different concepts: 1) Loathing a monster. 2) Finding the excusing of PF as an unwitting foil or terrified abuse victim and blaming, instead, someone who didn't murder KB, astounding and possibly rooted in sexism.

Those are two, totally different concepts.

I'm not going to lie- I forget how this was all even brought up, lol. I am more than willing to drop it. Yes, we all loathe her for sure, as well as Patrick.

 

[Steelslady]

I love ya', friend. But I'm not sure how this is relevant to what I've been discussing. She did not murder KB. She was not the mastermind. He was not controlled by her and terrified or duped by her into doing what he did. I believe she wanted KB dead as much as PF did. I think she knew exactly what was going to happen. But there is no evidence she murdered KB or controlled or coerced or manipulated PF into doing so.

Once again, there are different charges and possible sentences for different conduct for a reason. Being an accessory isn't the same as being a murderer. Being a conspirator is not the same as being a murderer. People can feel emotions about this as much as they would like but the reality is that society has determined there is a difference in moral culpability and hence in legal culpability between accessory, conspirator and actual murder.

Failing to see him for what he is and capable of wanting to and indeed engineering the murder of the mother of his child, is suspect to me.

I love ya, too. Peace, and I appreciate your expertise on this and see what you mean now. Thanks again for being patient and helpful, like always!

 

[MyBelle]

No. There were numerous people who believed that Shanann killed the kids.

People who thought the DA didn’t have enough evidence for there not to be reasonable doubt.

People who wanted to believe that CW was partially innocent, despite the staggering amount of evidence against him.

People who just don’t have a clue, as to how real life works.

They were out there.

Yes, some of us resist the lynch mob mentality and believe in due process and a right to a fair trial. There were some of us who believed it possible that SW killed the kids but we were also well aware--and repeatedly stated--that CW had CONFESSED to murder and disposal of all three bodies. No way would CWwalk free.

I'm not sure why it's relevant on this thread. Nobody has confessed, the body hasn't been found and I certainly do not agree that the DA is "confident" and needs no additional evidence.

JMO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I will start reading backwards now for the new posts, but first I want to mention something. When I saw the series Medical Detectives at night, a killer used his own socks to put them over his hands before the assault (on 3 people) with a knife. Investigators found the bloody socks with blood from the victims and first didn't understand it.
Immediately I thought of the bloody socks with KB's blood on it in KB's (??) car, when I heard it.
Only saying ....

 

[MassGuy]

Yes you did say that but no prosecutor "knows" they will win a case. They can be confident but I seriously doubt the prosecutor in this case would be engaging in an expensive search of the landfill if he already "knows" he will win the case. The judge certainly didn't agree with him that SF should testify at the prelim. hearing.

The speed the charges were brought wasn't all that fast. It was nearly a month after KB went missing and only after blood was found by CB, and KK, a proved liar, told her story.

JMO

I’ve followed several “no body murder cases,” and I haven’t come across a single one, that had an arrest this quickly.

There are several that I am following, that have yet to result in charges.

This is spectacularly unusual. I can’t possibly overstate that.

A body helps the case, and this prosecutor is doing everything in his power to win.

As he should.

 

[gitana1]

No. There were numerous people who believed that Shanann killed the kids.

People who thought the DA didn’t have enough evidence for there not to be reasonable doubt.

People who wanted to believe that CW was partially innocent, despite the staggering amount of evidence against him.

People who just don’t have a clue, as to how real life works.

They were out there.

Oh my gosh. The irony.