CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #47 *ARREST*

[SandyQLS]

1. a lot- indicative of death
2. yes
3. head wound
because afterward, LE said "regrettably not alive"

LE missed any blood at all on all their early entries until CB pointed out the only speck visible to the naked eye. KK claims she cleaned. I don't think there was any large volume of blood JMO.

Ref Thread 39 page 101 and 102, Defense questioning CBI Agent Slater:

Sam Kraemer on Twitter
Sam Kraemer‏ @SamKraemerTV2m2 minutes ago
Defense curious on Dec. 4 Berreth townhome search. They ask Slater about what was visible, to which he responds nothing (blood, sign of struggle, etc.). @KOAA

Sam Kraemer on Twitter
Sam Kraemer‏ @SamKraemerTV2m2 minutes ago
Dec. 6 search then processed Kelsey Berreth’s home with more DNA experts. Defense asking specifics about colors in Kelsey’s bathroom. Only blood spot visible to eye was in toilet. @KOAA

KK gave her 4.5 hour statement 12/20. PF was arrested 12/21 based on KK's statement and other evidence, like cell phones, not because of a large volume of blood and per the AW which never states this. ALL JMO MOO

 

[SandyQLS]

Keep in mind in a regular cremation the firebox is well insulated ( kiln like) and fairly small( not much air space) with a constant flame. It would be very hard to duplicate in open air what is achieved in a crematorium. Small meaning maybe 1-2 human body size. Watched a few YT videos .

ITAWY.
To be blunt, a crematorium is an oven. You cannot maintain 350F degrees to bake cookies with the oven door open, and you cannot maintain 1200-1800F in an outdoor bonfire to burn a body in 3 hours IMO.

IMO KK's stories are absurd.

 

[MassGuy]

ITAWY.
To be blunt, a crematorium is an oven. You cannot maintain 350F degrees to bake cookies with the oven door open, and you cannot maintain 1200-1400F in an outdoor bonfire to burn a body in 3 hours IMO.

IMO KK's stories are absurd.

Steven Avery did it, and he was able to burn the bones to a great extent.

We don’t know how long the fire was going, or the extent to which the bones were burned.

Perhaps there is quite a bit to be found.

 

[MemPat]

LE missed any blood at all on all their early entries until CB pointed out the only speck visible to the naked eye. KK claims she cleaned. I don't think there was any large volume of blood JMO.

Ref Thread 39 page 101 and 102, Defense questioning CBI Agent Slater:

Sam Kraemer on Twitter
Sam Kraemer‏ @SamKraemerTV2m2 minutes ago
Defense curious on Dec. 4 Berreth townhome search. They ask Slater about what was visible, to which he responds nothing (blood, sign of struggle, etc.). @KOAA

Sam Kraemer on Twitter
Sam Kraemer‏ @SamKraemerTV2m2 minutes ago
Dec. 6 search then processed Kelsey Berreth’s home with more DNA experts. Defense asking specifics about colors in Kelsey’s bathroom. Only blood spot visible to eye was in toilet. @KOAA

KK gave her 4.5 hour statement 12/20. PF was arrested 12/21 based on KK's statement and other evidence, like cell phones, not because of a large volume of blood and per the AW which never states this. ALL JMO MOO

But then there was the Bluestar and, ta-da! - everything changed!

"BLUESTAR® FORENSIC latent bloodstains reagent. BLUESTAR® FORENSIC is a new reagent whose purpose is to reveal blood stains that have been washed out, wiped off or which are invisible to the naked eye."

 

[MemPat]

Steven Avery did it, and he was able to burn the bones to a great extent.

We don’t know how long the fire was going, or the extent to which the bones were burned.

Perhaps there is quite a bit to be found.

I believe this to be true.

 

[MemPat]

But then there was the Bluestar and, ta-da! - everything changed!

"BLUESTAR® FORENSIC latent bloodstains reagent. BLUESTAR® FORENSIC is a new reagent whose purpose is to reveal blood stains that have been washed out, wiped off or which are invisible to the naked eye."

Why would LE arrest a man for murder if they didn't have evidence that a death had occurred?

 

[Livelove61364]

Steven Avery did it, and he was able to burn the bones to a great extent.

We don’t know how long the fire was going, or the extent to which the bones were burned.

Perhaps there is quite a bit to be found.

Last check, mind you I could be wrong & refuted, the bone fragments found in the Avery case were never tested?

On this subject slightly, if PF did in fact burn KBs body, even though KKL has said it was done with gasoline, can that information be trusted? We are speaking of farms/ranches, therefore access to diesel powered equipment & kerosene fueled barn heaters for the animals. All 3 of these can burn, although diesel is difficult to catch on fire if mixed with either of the other two, it will ignite quickly.

Kerosene is the most dangerous of the three in this aspect. In "free air" it burns at 2093°C, which translates roughly to about 3800°F! That's more than double what would be required by today's crematoriums (1500-1800°F) With this degree rating, it would likely take, about an hour to achieve desired results IMO.

I live in a somewhat rural area of Illinois. We have some fair large trees on our property , and every time a storm comes through, our yard is littered with branches. We had some old kerosene that accidentally got mixed with some gasoline , so we won't use it in anything. My husband decided it was ok to use for a good burn pit starter. When he ignited it, I swore there was a bomb set off in our backyard! Now this could have been due to the ratio of the mixture , or it could be all kerosene:gas mixes, I don't know; but its likely PF may have been heard by his mother igniting the burn if so....

 

[Kapua]

Uh-oh. I've also been researching accelerants and 'burning totes - how long and how hot'.

Y'all are excused from jury duty.

 

[Kapua]

I personally believe PF had completely exhausted his supply of creative plots, found a bat in his hand, and started swinging. But that's just my opinion. MOO

As GordianKnot always reminds us, "This is PF we're talking about". He is clearly no criminal mastermind. He's got time on his hands now, and he could easily write the book on "How Not To Commit a Murder". He didn't waste time on niceties such as pretending to care that his beloved fiancé was missing, showing up to the press conference, or pleading for her return. He didn't so much as bother to report her missing. Then he had his side piece KKL clean up the crime scene and send fake texts to delay the investigation for a few days, but he failed to figure out how to make his brutal murder of KB look like 1) a suicide, 2) an abduction or 3) she went on a road trip and had a terrible accident. I respect everyone's diverse opinions, and I think it's great that some of you are playing devil's advocate. If my mom was on Websleuths, she'd be posting, "But how do you KNOW that...." etc. However, I'm very much an Occam's Razor type, PF is a complete moron, and IMHO, KB was in that burned tote.

 

[justaparent]

I actually don't think he's cold. I think he's a hothead who loses his sh** when his anger boils over. There are witnesses to his rage and blow ups.

We keep operating under the assumption that it was he who initiated the plot to kill Kelsey but that comes from KK. Until I see proof of that, I'm not believing it. From what I see, she's the manipulator. My take is he controls by his aggression. She's the one with the flying monkeys who went out there and made excuses for her atrocious behavior. That says manipulator to me. For all I know, she wanted Kelsey dead (she sure behaved like it) and egged him on to do it. I see her as the narc and they are very good at provoking rage in others. As mad he was all of the time, that would have been easy.

I do think he blows up but that it takes a bit for the blow ups to occur.

I have always thought that KK was the instigator of this. And while I still believe she played a huge part in the entire scenario, I believe there was another person who was a driving force, prodding it along. And yes, I do have an opinion of who it was, but cannot voice that.

I’m not sure we are going to ever hear the entire truth, but I do think that much more than his role in this will be revealed during the trial (or after). Perhaps more percentage-wise than is typically reported beforehand.

JMO

 

[mickey2942]

Addictive relationships feed themselves, because it is usually two very disturbed people in the relationship. When they are over, it is usually not "over", just a break. And the disturbed people go on to relationships with normal people, who realize that they are in an unhealthy dynamic and leave.

The relationship between PF and KK fits this hypothesis perfectly. Together they probably had intense arguments, and got back together, over and over. To repeat the same pattern with other partners, who had little desire for the drama, as evidenced by KK's divorce and KB purchasing a condo, in her own name, despite having a child with PF.

The dynamic and dysfunction is interesting, two people as flawed as PF and KK finding each other. And I have no doubt that KK was far more involved than what she has disclosed. I believe that she helped PF develop the entire scenario. She was jealous of KB, and probably reveled in planning to kill her as a "fantasy" with PF. The fact that PF decided to run with it probably excited and terrified KK. She probably never expected PF to actually engage in the fantasy.

 

[Elley Mae]

How Hot Does A Campfire Get? Every Camper Needs To Know This

The normal temperature which is also the highest temperature for a campfire ranges at approximately 1,100 degrees Celsius which is 2,012 degrees Fahrenheit. This temperature is attained when you have a well-stocked wood campfire.

The firing temperature is hot enough to melt an aluminum tin since the melting point of aluminum is 1221 degrees Fahrenheit. With this temperature, you can clearly note that leaving the campfire unattended could cause you unimaginable losses

How Hot Does A Campfire Get? Every Camper Needs To Know This - March.2019

 

[1mtroyal]

Why would LE arrest a man for murder if they didn't have evidence that a death had occurred?

If a wife had not been seen for 20 years and the husband bought 2 million dollars in life insurance one week before the disappearance and he searched on his computer "how to make someone disappear" and the wife had in her diary "if I disappear, look at my husband", there is no physical evidence a death had occurred, but I would arrest that individual.

 

[InvSmith]

I think he was running late when he called SF. Where did his bloody clothing go?

Burned with everything else in the tote.

 

[Snowsnake]

I think LE has three choices, a river, the landfill or the incredibly vast uninhabited area behind and above Nash Ranch. The river is out, there isn't one. Also, all of the natural water on the Pikes Peak drainage belongs to the City of Colorado Springs. It's tested every day, at dozens of key points. Any hint of contamination would be tracked down immediately. I didn't want to elaborate on this in prior posts so nobody got grossed out. The dump is the next choice, and it's a very good one. Something had to get burned in that fire, and more important, there have to be identifiable remnants of some kind. So, if the body isn't there? Then it's a challenge, simply because of the immensity of the landscape, and it's a summer/fall project. I think LE is doing this in the logical way, that makes common sense. IMO

Dave F. he has to cross the Arkansas River and drive along it to get to his Westcliffe Pasture. The Westcliffe Ranch gives him more opportunity to dispose of the body. It would give him more privacy. The main flow of water through the Westcliffe Valley is Grape Creek. By placing remains in water that may be partially froze and then froze solid later you could hid remains until the Spring thaw and then mud and debris could cover it.

 

[steeltowngirl]

[snip] If my mom was on Websleuths, she'd be posting, "But how do you KNOW that...." etc. However, I'm very much an Occam's Razor type, PF is a complete moron, and IMHO, KB was in that burned tote.

Exactly. As my grandma used to say,
“If it looks like sh*t, and smells like sh*t, it must be sh*t.”

 

[InvSmith]

If a wife had not been seen for 20 years and the husband bought 2 million dollars in life insurance one week before the disappearance and he searched on his computer "how to make someone disappear" and the wife had in her diary "if I disappear, look at my husband", there is no physical evidence a death had occurred, but I would arrest that individual.

In this case there is overwhelming evidence that the victim is deceased. 1. She has not been seen since entering her residence on 11/22. She was not seen exiting her residence. To date, she has not been found after exhaustive searching. No transportation method has identified her. 2. She has not used any electronic means to support herself such as financial transactions. She has not used a phone to contact anyone. She has close family ties to stay. 3. A witness claims she is deceased and saw her burned and saw the crime scene. LE have confirmed many parts of that account.

 

[Snowsnake]

Last check, mind you I could be wrong & refuted, the bone fragments found in the Avery case were never tested?

On this subject slightly, if PF did in fact burn KBs body, even though KKL has said it was done with gasoline, can that information be trusted? We are speaking of farms/ranches, therefore access to diesel powered equipment & kerosene fueled barn heaters for the animals. All 3 of these can burn, although diesel is difficult to catch on fire if mixed with either of the other two, it will ignite quickly.

Kerosene is the most dangerous of the three in this aspect. In "free air" it burns at 2093°C, which translates roughly to about 3800°F! That's more than double what would be required by today's crematoriums (1500-1800°F) With this degree rating, it would likely take, about an hour to achieve desired results IMO.

I live in a somewhat rural area of Illinois. We have some fair large trees on our property , and every time a storm comes through, our yard is littered with branches. We had some old kerosene that accidentally got mixed with some gasoline , so we won't use it in anything. My husband decided it was ok to use for a good burn pit starter. When he ignited it, I swore there was a bomb set off in our backyard! Now this could have been due to the ratio of the mixture , or it could be all kerosene:gas mixes, I don't know; but its likely PF may have been heard by his mother igniting the burn if so....

You are right about diesel and kerosene burning very hot but the bottom of the water trough could not take the heat.

 

[susiQ]

Addictive relationships feed themselves, because it is usually two very disturbed people in the relationship. When they are over, it is usually not "over", just a break. And the disturbed people go on to relationships with normal people, who realize that they are in an unhealthy dynamic and leave.

The relationship between PF and KK fits this hypothesis perfectly. Together they probably had intense arguments, and got back together, over and over. To repeat the same pattern with other partners, who had little desire for the drama, as evidenced by KK's divorce and KB purchasing a condo, in her own name, despite having a child with PF.

The dynamic and dysfunction is interesting, two people as flawed as PF and KK finding each other. And I have no doubt that KK was far more involved than what she has disclosed. I believe that she helped PF develop the entire scenario. She was jealous of KB, and probably reveled in planning to kill her as a "fantasy" with PF. The fact that PF decided to run with it probably excited and terrified KK. She probably never expected PF to actually engage in the fantasy.

I agree with most of what you've said concerning these two despicable creatures, except the last part, bbm. I think KK wanted nothing less than for PF to "run with it" and fulfill her sick fantasy. I also think it was HER job all along as she was most likely the driving force. No mistake, PF wanted KB out of the picture too. But seriously, who would drive a 1600 mile round trip three times, twice within the space of a week to kill someone if they really didn't want to do it?? She only lacked the stomach to do the "wet work", as they say. As well, in her twisted mind she desperately needed PF to do it to show her how much more he valued HER over KB, the sweet, cute, tiny woman that was everything she wasn't and could never be. So, once the deed was done, she felt obligated to run down there AGAIN and clean up the mess PF made for HER.

The irony of course lies in the fact that PF ultimately did it for himself. PF only does what benefits him. KK was dumb enough to think he actually planned to start a life with her. I'm guessing that fantasy ended the day she got the call from the FBI in Las Vegas. Her brain then went into overdrive as to how she could spin this tale with minimal damage to her character. Unfortunately, she didn't have any. Even though she managed to get a sweet plea deal while trying to save some face, that clearly didn't work. Her "face" appears even uglier now.

 

[lindaromas]

LE missed any blood at all on all their early entries until CB pointed out the only speck visible to the naked eye. KK claims she cleaned. I don't think there was any large volume of blood JMO.

Ref Thread 39 page 101 and 102, Defense questioning CBI Agent Slater:

Sam Kraemer on Twitter
Sam Kraemer‏ @SamKraemerTV2m2 minutes ago
Defense curious on Dec. 4 Berreth townhome search. They ask Slater about what was visible, to which he responds nothing (blood, sign of struggle, etc.). @KOAA

Sam Kraemer on Twitter
Sam Kraemer‏ @SamKraemerTV2m2 minutes ago
Dec. 6 search then processed Kelsey Berreth’s home with more DNA experts. Defense asking specifics about colors in Kelsey’s bathroom. Only blood spot visible to eye was in toilet. @KOAA

KK gave her 4.5 hour statement 12/20. PF was arrested 12/21 based on KK's statement and other evidence, like cell phones, not because of a large volume of blood and per the AW which never states this. ALL JMO MOO

Never mind, I'm grabbing at straws now.