CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #52 *ARREST*

[Seattle1]

Is that the one that said he was weird and a watcher of her and she went inside the barn until he was finished.

No it wasn't. She was fond of him. and the Frazee family too.

 

[ilovechili]

bbm
Agreed -- I think he's not just "cool," but cold. He has no heart for anyone but himself. And I don't think that he loves that child as much as he tries to portray. It's a competition, and folks like him simply cannot stand to lose -- at whatever it is.
If I'm (we're) wrong, I'll sit beside you and eat my share of crow pie, too!

Not on this case much here so the other day I was catching up on the couple of pages missed. Someone mentioned Ann Rule and it made me think of the first book I read of hers. It was Dead By Sunset. It was a long time ago. I then went looking it up as I could not recall it perfectly because I read it so long ago. I found free legal downloads of many of her older books and lo and behold found myself reading what amounted to an almost 800 page book. I would have paid to read it again but did not need to.

The reason I bring that up is in rereading it (couldn't stop either, read it in short order and got nothing done lol), the perp in that one will remind you of PF more than once as it will other perps we have seen.

Children as pawns, objects and possessions were big in this story as was a hatred of women.

Also notable was what he did to the women over time trying to protect their children and fight back--the depression, the fear and more.

It is not an identical story but the personalities I would dare say are similar--projection, cold rage, control, his way or the highway--yet in each and every case the relationship started out with him being a "prince"...

They had a body but not enough other evidence and it took a very long time to bring him to justice. A civil suit was successful first.

A good read and a glimpse into the mind of such types.

Yes, Baby KB (to me she is Baby KB) is a possession to him.

imo.

 

[Hatfield]

Not on this case much here so the other day I was catching up on the couple of pages missed. Someone mentioned Ann Rule and it made me think of the first book I read of hers. It was Dead By Sunset. It was a long time ago. I then went looking it up as I could not recall it perfectly because I read it so long ago. I found free legal downloads of many of her older books and lo and behold found myself reading what amounted to an almost 800 page book. I would have paid to read it again but did not need to.

The reason I bring that up is in rereading it (couldn't stop either, read it in short order and got nothing done lol), the perp in that one will remind you of PF more than once as it will other perps we have seen.

Children as pawns, objects and possessions were big in this story as was a hatred of women.

Also notable was what he did to the women over time trying to protect their children and fight back--the depression, the fear and more.

It is not an identical story but the personalities I would dare say are similar--projection, cold rage, control, his way or the highway--yet in each and every case the relationship started out with him being a "prince"...

They had a body but not enough other evidence and it took a very long time to bring him to justice. A civil suit was successful first.

A good read and a glimpse into the mind of such types.

Yes, Baby KB (to me she is Baby KB) is a possession to him.

imo.

I wholeheartedly agree.

All JMO
When we saw him holding the child awkwardly I think that was a huge sign.

It told me that he is not careful enough about how he holded the baby and he may not have cared for the child as much as some think. IMO every time he got "possession" of the baby he handed her off to his Mom most of the time.

I think when we find out more of the details of this case during the trial that people are going to be somewhat shocked to find out it was the Mom that was getting obsessed with custody of the child. I think the Mom played a huge part in PF's reason he wanted KB dead.

For whatever reason, I think the Mom ended up hating KB and the Mom hated the fact that KB would get the baby more than she did. And as PF's relationship with KB went downhill then the Mom's fears of losing access to the child became increased to a point where she influenced PF and his murderous actions.

I hope the judge makes her get up on the witness stand and answer to each and every question. Im still upset the other judge did not require her to testify. That was BS. If she wants to plead the 5th then she needs to do it on every question asked of her. Make her pick and choose if each question really is going to incriminate her. That will prove the public her level of involvement if she refuses to answer because it incriminates her own culpability in this case.

 

[ajaylee]

Thanks, Hatfield. I've been thinking the same kinds of things about SF and her relationship to her son, KB and Baby K.

I'm no psychologist and I wouldn't go so far as to say their situation reminds me of Norman Bates and his mother, but I do not think SF was going to tolerate any permanent woman in PF's life. She was not going to tolerate PF moving from the ranch, and she wasn't going to share the rule of her domain with any other woman.

But she would welcome a darling little baby girl with no strings (mother, money) attached.

One of the many things I've wondered about: the steel rod. I particularly wonder about that because it was one of the things the DA specifically wanted to ask SF about.

We don't know much about that rod at this point - other than once again, KK is our primary source. I thought she picked up and returned the rod to the gate. I can understand that perhaps SF came home, saw it and wondered how it got there.

But if that happened, who gave that information to LE? Certainly not PF or SF. Could PF have told KK that SF found the rod and asked about it?

 

[MassGuy]

Thanks, Hatfield. I've been thinking the same kinds of things about SF and her relationship to her son, KB and Baby K.

I'm no psychologist and I wouldn't go so far as to say their situation reminds me of Norman Bates and his mother, but I do not think SF was going to tolerate any permanent woman in PF's life. She was not going to tolerate PF moving from the ranch, and she wasn't going to share the rule of her domain with any other woman.

But she would welcome a darling little baby girl with no strings (mother, money) attached.

One of the many things I've wondered about: the steel rod. I particularly wonder about that because it was one of the things the DA specifically wanted to ask SF about.

We don't know much about that rod at this point - other than once again, KK is our primary source. I thought she picked up and returned the rod to the gate. I can understand that perhaps SF came home, saw it and wondered how it got there.

But if that happened, who gave that information to LE? Certainly not PF or SF. Could PF have told KK that SF found the rod and asked about it?

From Sam:

Slater: Kenney drove to Kelsey’s home. Got out of the car, but didn’t take the rod. She heard a dog barking, got in her car, drove to Frazee’s residence and left the rod at the gate of his home. @KOAA #PatrickFrazee #KelseyBerreth #KrystalKenney

PF apparently likes to talk, so I think mommy came home, saw the rod, and asked PF about it.

PF then told KK, who ultimately told authorities.

 

[Hatfield]

Thanks, Hatfield. I've been thinking the same kinds of things about SF and her relationship to her son, KB and Baby K.

I'm no psychologist and I wouldn't go so far as to say their situation reminds me of Norman Bates and his mother, but I do not think SF was going to tolerate any permanent woman in PF's life. She was not going to tolerate PF moving from the ranch, and she wasn't going to share the rule of her domain with any other woman.

But she would welcome a darling little baby girl with no strings (mother, money) attached.

One of the many things I've wondered about: the steel rod. I particularly wonder about that because it was one of the things the DA specifically wanted to ask SF about.

We don't know much about that rod at this point - other than once again, KK is our primary source. I thought she picked up and returned the rod to the gate. I can understand that perhaps SF came home, saw it and wondered how it got there.

But if that happened, who gave that information to LE? Certainly not PF or SF. Could PF have told KK that SF found the rod and asked about it?

Good points about the Metal Rod.

There is certainly more to the story about that metal rod.

And when KK described how certain things were left at the gate, I have a feeling there is more to those stories too.

Especially the part where KK allegedly drives all the way from Idaho to Colorado and we are supposed to believe that once she got to Colorado that she didnt want to meet face to face and discuss things with PF before anything else.

KK claims she went right to the gate to pick up the keys. After that long drive you would think she would need to meet with PF to get all the details about what she was about to face when going to KB's house. I dont buy from KK that after driving all those miles that she didnt meet with PF to talk things over before going to KBs house. No way it happened that way IMO.

The whole "gate thing" is just a little too bizarre to me to take her word for things right now.

 

[MemPat]

Thanks, Hatfield. I've been thinking the same kinds of things about SF and her relationship to her son, KB and Baby K.

I'm no psychologist and I wouldn't go so far as to say their situation reminds me of Norman Bates and his mother, but I do not think SF was going to tolerate any permanent woman in PF's life. She was not going to tolerate PF moving from the ranch, and she wasn't going to share the rule of her domain with any other woman.

But she would welcome a darling little baby girl with no strings (mother, money) attached.

One of the many things I've wondered about: the steel rod. I particularly wonder about that because it was one of the things the DA specifically wanted to ask SF about.

We don't know much about that rod at this point - other than once again, KK is our primary source. I thought she picked up and returned the rod to the gate. I can understand that perhaps SF came home, saw it and wondered how it got there.

But if that happened, who gave that information to LE? Certainly not PF or SF. Could PF have told KK that SF found the rod and asked about it?

I'm sure I'm not the first (nor the last) to say it but perhaps the steel rod has KK's touch DNA on it.

If found at the ranchette and perhaps having PF and/or SF's fingerprints or DNA as well, it supports KK's story.

MOO

 

[MassGuy]

Good points about the Metal Rod.

There is certainly more to the story about that metal rod.

And when KK described how certain things were left at the gate, I have a feeling there is more to those stories too.

Especially the part where KK allegedly drives all the way from Idaho to Colorado and we are supposed to believe that once she got to Colorado that she didnt want to meet face to face and discuss things with PF before anything else.

KK claims she went right to the gate to pick up the keys. After that long drive you would think she would need to meet with PF to get all the details about what she was about to face when going to KB's house. I dont buy from KB that after driving all those miles that she didnt meet with PF to talk things over before going to KBs house. No way it happened that way IMO.

The whole "gate thing" is just a little too bizarre to me to take her word for things right now.

This is where phone records are going to be key.

If they did not meet face to face, then there would have to be texts or phone calls that preceded KK going to KB’s house.

When trial comes, I’d expect to see this documented in phone records.

If these records do not exist, then the account is suspicious.

I don’t see her lying about this, after all she’s admitted to. Those things are far more damning, and a lie here, would put her deal in jeopardy.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I’ve added from everyone’s posts and a few more. Here’s the list of items so far for possible DNA testing:

• Unknown DNA in KB apt
• KB gun
• MG gun
• The melted balls
• Blood on the swiffer
• Bat
• The bloody sheet
• Unknown weapon with another’s fingerprints
• Bullet shell
• Blood in PF or KB truck
• Blood in KK borrowed vehicle
• KK pile of remains she burned in her yard
• Flesh
• Brain matter
• Teeth
• Swab from wash machine
• Simple green
• Bleach
• Soap
• Tissues from PF truck
• PF hat, shoes, bootlaces
• Swabs from doorknobs
• KB underclothes
• Blood on cleaning bottles
• Cinnamon rolls
• Gunpowder residue
• Saliva in trash can
• Steel rod

 

[Hatfield]

This is where phone records are going to be key.

If they did not meet face to face, then there would have to be texts or phone calls that preceded KK going to KB’s house.

When trial comes, I’d expect to see this documented in phone records.

If these records do not exist, then the account is suspicious.

I don’t see her lying about this, after all she’s admitted to. Those things are far more damning, and a lie here, would put her deal in jeopardy.

Good point that sometimes a lack of phone activity will also tell us a story. So if both KK and PFs phones go silent for a few hours that day/time she arrived it would imply they may be together at a secret meeting place.

When I have more time I want to share some theories about KK's deal with LE. The main one I have is I think LE got duped a little bit by not realizing her level of involvement.

I've been researching how these sorts of deals are made and one thing that typically happens is the defendent does not spill their information until the deal is signed in ink. That is their big bargaining chip and so they dont give LE much of anything until the ink is dry with signatures.

I think what happened is mainly a couple things.

LE solely needs KK to help convict PF. That was their goal in using her for the deal so they asked her 1 important question before making the deal and before hearing all her "stories".

"Did you kill KB?"
Answer from KK "No"

Once LE heard that she did not kill KB then they felt confident they can make a deal because she was not the murderer. They would even have that in the wording that if LE finds out she did kill KB then the deal is off.

But what happened after the ink was signed is when the details came out about how much support she gave PF and helping clean up the crime scene, I think LE was about as floored as we were.

It doesnt change much for LE except to make them look really bad that they gave her such a good deal. But LE still gets what they need from KK. Someone to help put him away and they also got information that filled in a lot of the blanks.

Anyway thats my main theory on it.
I could be wrong but this would explain a lot to me of how things went down.

I think LE will unfortunately let KK slide if they find out on smaller lies. I think the contract is mainly on the big stuff. Like if she did actually have a hand in the killing part. That would be a deal breaker for sure. But some of the falsehoods I think LE will unfortunately let her slide because they still want what is owed to them from her. And that is to get up on that stand and point her finger at PF and say to the jury "Yup thats him".

 

[ilovechili]

I wholeheartedly agree.

All JMO
When we saw him holding the child awkwardly I think that was a huge sign.

It told me that he is not careful enough about how he holded the baby and he may not have cared for the child as much as some think. IMO every time he got "possession" of the baby he handed her off to his Mom most of the time.

I think when we find out more of the details of this case during the trial that people are going to be somewhat shocked to find out it was the Mom that was getting obsessed with custody of the child. I think the Mom played a huge part in PF's reason he wanted KB dead.

For whatever reason, I think the Mom ended up hating KB and the Mom hated the fact that KB would get the baby more than she did. And as PF's relationship with KB went downhill then the Mom's fears of losing access to the child became increased to a point where she influenced PF and his murderous actions.

I hope the judge makes her get up on the witness stand and answer to each and every question. Im still upset the other judge did not require her to testify. That was BS. If she wants to plead the 5th then she needs to do it on every question asked of her. Make her pick and choose if each question really is going to incriminate her. That will prove the public her level of involvement if she refuses to answer because it incriminates her own culpability in this case.

I can't disagree because from all we have seen it looks quite plausible.

Without going into detail, the way he held Baby K reminds me of a farm grandma I used to know who, if they had to pick a baby/child up did it that way. I personally think he is imitating mom but that is just a guess.

Whether she would never be happy with any woman (ma), unless that woman bowed to ma would be my guess, I also think he was the type of guy in a very backwood type of area that would be influenced when he was being razzed like what are you doing with a girl from out of area, she fancies herself a pilot, works in the city and lives in a townhouse, does she know you are a rancher, rodeo type of guy? I say this from having seen the type that I believe and speculate that he is... Probably from ma too. KK on the other hand I think was known by the family for some number of years and she was also a nurse like mom with connections in the area, the rodeo, etc.

Pleading the 5th at the prelim was highly unusual. We will see how far that flies at a trial if this ever gets to one.

I think this is one screwed up family and I think there is more in their collective closet. Maybe not skeletons but...

Ma pleads the 5th. SF2 and PF are estranged but together for his LE talk. KK and the family knowing her has not been touched on... I have no doubt they knew her...

jmo, imo, etc.

 

[ajaylee]

Good points about the Metal Rod.

There is certainly more to the story about that metal rod.

And when KK described how certain things were left at the gate, I have a feeling there is more to those stories too.

Especially the part where KK allegedly drives all the way from Idaho to Colorado and we are supposed to believe that once she got to Colorado that she didnt want to meet face to face and discuss things with PF before anything else.

KK claims she went right to the gate to pick up the keys. After that long drive you would think she would need to meet with PF to get all the details about what she was about to face when going to KB's house. I dont buy from KK that after driving all those miles that she didnt meet with PF to talk things over before going to KBs house. No way it happened that way IMO.

The whole "gate thing" is just a little too bizarre to me to take her word for things right now.

Yes, the "gate thing" is weird.

I wondered if PF didn't want SF to know when KK was in town, but IIRC, the night before Thanksgiving, he had KB drop him off at home, fetch his 'tummy' medicine, bring it back and leave it at the gate.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

This is where phone records are going to be key.

If they did not meet face to face, then there would have to be texts or phone calls that preceded KK going to KB’s house.

When trial comes, I’d expect to see this documented in phone records.

If these records do not exist, then the account is suspicious.

I don’t see her lying about this, after all she’s admitted to. Those things are far more damning, and a lie here, would put her deal in jeopardy.

Text or phone calls may be non-existent?

We already know they communicated through Facebook?, and perhaps all those applications we have seen on other cases that disappear and go poof? If they were from the Google store and Google download, that may be of assistance though.

 

[MassGuy]

Text her phone calls may be non-existent. We already know they communicated through Facebook, and perhaps all those applications we have seen on other cases that disappear and go poof? If they were from the Google store and Google download, that may be of assistance though.

They did communicate through the use of cell phones, which would leave billing records.

It’s always possible they used an encrypted app or something, but judging by their pattern of behavior, I think this is very unlikely.

KK would have told law enforcement about their communications, and I think it’s possible, if not probable, that there are saved conversations (texts, Facebook messages) that will prove incriminating.

We don’t know the extent of the evidence that law enforcement has in this regard, but if I know PF like I think I know PF, he dug his grave even deeper.

By the time this is over, he’s going to be buried a mile underground, in a coffin that has no shortage of nails.

 

[ilovechili]

Good point that sometimes a lack of phone activity will also tell us a story. So if both KK and PFs phones go silent for a few hours that day/time she arrived it would imply they may be together at a secret meeting place.

When I have more time I want to share some theories about KK's deal with LE. The main one I have is I think LE got duped a little bit by not realizing her level of involvement.

I've been researching how these sorts of deals are made and one thing that typically happens is the defendent does not spill their information until the deal is signed in ink. That is their big bargaining chip and so they dont give LE much of anything until the ink is dry with signatures.

I think what happened is mainly a couple things.

LE solely needs KK to help convict PF. That was their goal in using her for the deal so they asked her 1 important question before making the deal and before hearing all her "stories".

"Did you kill KB?"
Answer from KK "No"

Once LE heard that she did not kill KB then they felt confident they can make a deal because she was not the murderer. They would even have that in the wording that if LE finds out she did kill KB then the deal is off.

But what happened after the ink was signed is when the details came out about how much support she gave PF and helping clean up the crime scene, I think LE was about as floored as we were.

It doesnt change much for LE except to make them look really bad that they gave her such a good deal. But LE still gets what they need from KK. Someone to help put him away and they also got information that filled in a lot of the blanks.

Anyway thats my main theory on it.
I could be wrong but this would explain a lot to me of how things went down.

I think LE will unfortunately let KK slide if they find out on smaller lies. I think the contract is mainly on the big stuff. Like if she did actually have a hand in the killing part. That would be a deal breaker for sure. But some of the falsehoods I think LE will unfortunately let her slide because they still want what is owed to them from her. And that is to get up on that stand and point her finger at PF and say to the jury "Yup thats him".

Yes this deal was sealed before she said a word. Let's also never forget that the deal is sealed (not public). You said it very well.

What isn't said and lies by omission quite likely have much to do with this case. And anything prior to the alleged day of the murder itself is missing. As are any conversations about solicitation, etc. which are also charges.

jmo.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Yes, the "gate thing" is weird.

I wondered if PF didn't want SF to know when KK was in town, but IIRC, the night before Thanksgiving, he had KB drop him off at home, fetch his 'tummy' medicine, bring it back and leave it at the gate.

Seriously, did KB really leave his stomach medicine at the gate? I hadn't seen that but I did miss a couple of threads around that time.

WTH kind of man has his gf baby momma with the baby, drive all the way to get his medicine and drive it back to him and leave it at the gate like a servant???? Gawd, this for some reason has just sent me over the edge! What an egomaniac, selfish, narcissistic a hole to have her out so late on TG eve with their little baby.

Poor KB, did she not see the real PF or was she hoping and wishing that things would work out because of baby K? I think she may have been determined to make it work because she had moved away from family, found her 'dream' job, and had a beautiful baby daughter. She seems like the type of person who would have given a relationship 150% and unfortunately PF took all 150% and gave 0% in return IMO.

 

[MassGuy]

Seriously, did KB really leave his stomach medicine at the gate? I hadn't seen that but I did miss a couple of threads around that time.

WTH kind of man has his gf baby momma with the baby, drive all the way to get his medicine and drive it back to him and leave it at the gate like a servant???? Gawd, this for some reason has just sent me over the edge! What an egomaniac, selfish, narcissistic a hole to have her out so late on TG eve with their little baby.

Poor KB, did she not see the real PF or was she hoping and wishing that things would work out because of baby K? I think she may have been determined to make it work because she had moved away from family, found her 'dream' job, and had a beautiful baby daughter. She seems like the type of person who would have given a relationship 150% and unfortunately PF took all 150% and gave 0% in return IMO.

Hell, he gave her less than 0%, on account of the fact that he killed her.

He took everything, and then some.

 

[susiQ]

bbm
Agreed -- I think he's not just "cool," but cold. He has no heart for anyone but himself. And I don't think that he loves that child as much as he tries to portray. It's a competition, and folks like him simply cannot stand to lose -- at whatever it is.
If I'm (we're) wrong, I'll sit beside you and eat my share of crow pie, too!

Wonderful!! I love company when I have to eat crow
also, bbm, couldn't agree more!

 

[girlhasnoname]

Hell, he gave her less than 0%, on account of the fact that he killed her.

He took everything, and then some.

PF's arrogance is appalling IMO

 

[MassGuy]

PF's arrogance is appalling IMO

His arrogance will nail him though, so that’s a good thing.

By trying to commit the perfect crime, he committed the exact opposite of that.