Deceased/Not Found CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #55 *ARREST*

[?mysterian?]

Sometimes you just have to step away and say WTF. You can lead a horse to water.....

I'm having flashbacks to the Watts family murders threads.

I hope PF's trial will be televised/broadcast and will have no acoustic/sound problems.

 

[katydid23]

Were there puddles of blood under the floorboards in the back bedroom?

 

[PommyMommy]

Again, Kraemer edited his blog and inserted his tweets he thought relevant. He did NOT correct his tweet about Agent Slater's testimony. What a prosecutor says is not testimony.

We'll agree to disagree and move on. We've been asked to stop discussing it and I'll respect that request.

Okay, forget about the blog. The video below is of the press conference after the hearing.

Just after the 8-minute mark, the lead prosecutor says that the evidence presented today was that Baby K was in the back room when Kelsey was murdered.

Same as the affidavit, same as the courtroom testimony. PF murdered Kelsey in the living room. Or do you think the lead prosecutor is wrong too?

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[GordianKnot]

Word to the Wise:

When you beat your head against a brick wall repeatedly, the wall doesn't budge.

The only net result is that you walk away from the exercise with a massive headache.

There ain't any reasoning with a brick wall.

Live and learn and pass it on.

 

[MyBelle]

Maybe since you were not following at the time you didn't notice that it was soon corrected to the living room. The child was in the back room. The murder took place in the living room.

The blog was never corrected, but the information was.

IMO

If you want to believe the murder took place in the living room that's great. But I'll continue to hold my opinion that it did not and the child was not present. The prosecutor had the opportunity to correct the information while Slater was on the witness stand. I think the blog was never corrected because the source at the press conference was the prosecutor and NOT Agent Slater, who testified in court.

According to Slater's testimony, his interview with KK was taped. Hopefully, the jury will get to watch it for themselves to see where KK claimed the murder took place. Kinda strange how the only blood residue LE could detect was all over the bathroom including the door hinges.

I'm looking forward to the trial.

JMO

 

[mickey2942]

I think she was worried about a couple of things.

The burning of the tote in the yard. I don't think she wanted to answer any questions about backyard bonfires.

What time PF and the baby arrived for Thanksgiving dinner. I don't think she wanted to nail that time down, exactly.

How long she had her grandchild in her care after Thanksgiving and if she thought it was strange they were not doing their usual custody schedule.

With that^^^ would come questions about KB, and what PF would say about her communication about the child that few weeks.


I do not think SF wants to answer any questions if she can avoid it.

SF was arrested in the beginning, and released?

PF is not being charged with a potential death penalty sentence, is that because there is no body?

 

[MassGuy]

If you want to believe the murder took place in the living room that's great. But I'll continue to hold my opinion that it did not and the child was not present. The prosecutor had the opportunity to correct the information while Slater was on the witness stand. I think the blog was never corrected because the source at the press conference was the prosecutor and NOT Agent Slater, who testified in court.

According to Slater's testimony, his interview with KK was taped. Hopefully, the jury will get to watch it for themselves to see where KK claimed the murder took place. Kinda strange how the only blood residue LE could detect was all over the bathroom including the door hinges.

I'm looking forward to the trial.

JMO

If one wants to ignore the red substance under the floorboards, under chairs, and splatter on the fireplace; ok.

If one wants to believe that the baby magically disappeared in the 7 minute time span between Walmart and PF’s return to Kelsey’s house; ok.

Just recognize that’s what a person has to do in order to believe a fantasy.

Ignore evidence.

 

[katydid23]

SF was arrested in the beginning, and released?

PF is not being charged with a potential death penalty sentence, is that because there is no body?

SF was never arrested. She was detained and cuffed at first, just for everyone's safety. They didn't want her to try and interfere with her son's arrest.

I am not sure about the DP decision.

 

[Gigi3]

Okay, forget about the blog. The video below is of the press conference after the hearing.

Just after the 8-minute mark, the lead prosecutor says that the evidence presented today was that Baby K was in the back room when Kelsey was murdered.

Same as the affidavit, same as the courtroom testimony. PF murdered Kelsey in the living room. Or do you think the lead prosecutor is wrong too?

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I appreciate all your effort pommy!

 

[katydid23]

If you want to believe the murder took place in the living room that's great. But I'll continue to hold my opinion that it did not and the child was not present. The prosecutor had the opportunity to correct the information while Slater was on the witness stand. I think the blog was never corrected because the source at the press conference was the prosecutor and NOT Agent Slater, who testified in court.

According to Slater's testimony, his interview with KK was taped. Hopefully, the jury will get to watch it for themselves to see where KK claimed the murder took place. Kinda strange how the only blood residue LE could detect was all over the bathroom including the door hinges.

I'm looking forward to the trial.

JMO

What is your opinion about the child's whereabouts? She was seen on Walmart's cameras with her father, minutes before he arrived at KB's condo, where he killed her.

What did PF do to rid himself of the child in that brief span of time?

Wouldn't the logical answer be that he took her along with him?

 

[10ofRods]

I asked a couple of people who have more recent experience with forensic burn evidence to comment on this case. Anthropologists typically deal with bones, as I'm sure everyone knows, and it's really hard to burn all bones in any kind of fire outside of specially designed crematoriums. For example, the base of the skull usually remains (and there's a bunch of research on how to begin to identify victims based on just that one part of the anatomy).

In this case, the melting point of any plastic tote (I'm assuming it's the heaviest kind of tote, the kind often seen in the truck beds of cowboy types) is not that high and unless gasoline was repeatedly applied, there would be remnants of the plastic.

The colleague who has the most experience said that if there was plastic, there had to be bone (unless someone fairly skilled had sifted through all the ashes prior to the investigator arriving). He pointed me to several citations involving very hot fires where police missed human fragments, but experienced forensic anthropologists found them. This is a specific subspecialty in forensic anthropology (burn fragments) but almost any biologically trained forensic anthropologist could pick out some of the major kinds of fragments that would remain. We have some plaster casts of bone fragments that survive that I can use in my own lab, and to be fair, almost no one would be able to tell that it was a burnt down piece of a skull. But after learning why, for example, the occiput burns the way it does, it's pretty easy to tell that one (and often overlooked).

Police in really big urban areas may have such a specialist somewhere within their own forensic team but most places do not have such a person on salary.

Someone like me would recognize some of the shapes of burned down bones (skull bones in particular) but only a very experienced and gifted forensic osteologist would get catch most of them; they almost always find things that police don't find but even they would want considerable forensic analysis of the site before it was touched). Further, this specialist would need to take all the ash, any baked pan, etc. to the lab.

So it's really hard to completely burn a human body. Lava flows don't always manage it. Jet plane crashes do not always manage it. It's also really hard to find and remove all of the bone.

Did they have a forensic archaeologist and osteologist, I wonder (sometimes the same person). They would have done a directed dig and bagging of the firebed and examined all fragments where instruments like powerful microscopes, x-ray and mri are available...as there are tell-tale signs embedded even in tiny bone fragments that reveal that they are bones. For example, I know how to tell wood or plastic from bone by the growth patterns visible only under a very good microscope (one that exceeds the budget of my college's lab). A person who is doing full time forensics in a well funded university lab, though, can see so much more. There are techniques (such as dusting with gold powder) to make these patterns more visible even on very small objects. Some parts of the skull can be used (even if badly burned) to determine age, sex and occasionally even a guess at ethnicity (used for reunification forensics).

So, a forensic anthropologist or osteologist would have been helpful to show that in fact, that burn area was used to burn a human. Further, with many fragments, the age of the person could be known. All of that would be helpful in prosecution, although this is apparently such a slam-dunk case that perhaps the State didn't want to pay for all of this??

There are some pretty darned good experts in Colorado, though, just saying.

 

[katydid23]

If you want to believe the murder took place in the living room that's great. But I'll continue to hold my opinion that it did not and the child was not present. The prosecutor had the opportunity to correct the information while Slater was on the witness stand. I think the blog was never corrected because the source at the press conference was the prosecutor and NOT Agent Slater, who testified in court.

According to Slater's testimony, his interview with KK was taped. Hopefully, the jury will get to watch it for themselves to see where KK claimed the murder took place. Kinda strange how the only blood residue LE could detect was all over the bathroom including the door hinges.

I'm looking forward to the trial.

JMO

Patrick Frazee tied a sweater around Kelsey Berreth’s face and beat her to death with a bat
Tests showed that it was Berreth’s blood. Slater said investigators believed at that time that Berreth met with foul play. When they learned that the main attack had happened in the living room, investigators tore up the wood floor and found traces of what they believe to be Berreth’s blood all over the room, Slater said.

And look there^^^^, it is SLATER saying there was blood found all over the living room.

Isn't that what you were asking about? You wanted to hear Slater testify that there was blood found in the living room and there it is.

 

[MassGuy]

I asked a couple of people who have more recent experience with forensic burn evidence to comment on this case. Anthropologists typically deal with bones, as I'm sure everyone knows, and it's really hard to burn all bones in any kind of fire outside of specially designed crematoriums. For example, the base of the skull usually remains (and there's a bunch of research on how to begin to identify victims based on just that one part of the anatomy).

In this case, the melting point of any plastic tote (I'm assuming it's the heaviest kind of tote, the kind often seen in the truck beds of cowboy types) is not that high and unless gasoline was repeatedly applied, there would be remnants of the plastic.

The colleague who has the most experience said that if there was plastic, there had to be bone (unless someone fairly skilled had sifted through all the ashes prior to the investigator arriving). He pointed me to several citations involving very hot fires where police missed human fragments, but experienced forensic anthropologists found them. This is a specific subspecialty in forensic anthropology (burn fragments) but almost any biologically trained forensic anthropologist could pick out some of the major kinds of fragments that would remain. We have some plaster casts of bone fragments that survive that I can use in my own lab, and to be fair, almost no one would be able to tell that it was a burnt down piece of a skull. But after learning why, for example, the occiput burns the way it does, it's pretty easy to tell that one (and often overlooked).

Police in really big urban areas may have such a specialist somewhere within their own forensic team but most places do not have such a person on salary.

Someone like me would recognize some of the shapes of burned down bones (skull bones in particular) but only a very experienced and gifted forensic osteologist would get catch most of them; they almost always find things that police don't find but even they would want considerable forensic analysis of the site before it was touched). Further, this specialist would need to take all the ash, any baked pan, etc. to the lab.

So it's really hard to completely burn a human body. Lava flows don't always manage it. Jet plane crashes do not always manage it. It's also really hard to find and remove all of the bone.

Did they have a forensic archaeologist and osteologist, I wonder (sometimes the same person). They would have done a directed dig and bagging of the firebed and examined all fragments where instruments like powerful microscopes, x-ray and mri are available...as there are tell-tale signs embedded even in tiny bone fragments that reveal that they are bones. For example, I know how to tell wood or plastic from bone by the growth patterns visible only under a very good microscope (one that exceeds the budget of my college's lab). A person who is doing full time forensics in a well funded university lab, though, can see so much more. There are techniques (such as dusting with gold powder) to make these patterns more visible even on very small objects. Some parts of the skull can be used (even if badly burned) to determine age, sex and occasionally even a guess at ethnicity (used for reunification forensics).

So, a forensic anthropologist or osteologist would have been helpful to show that in fact, that burn area was used to burn a human. Further, with many fragments, the age of the person could be known. All of that would be helpful in prosecution, although this is apparently such a slam-dunk case that perhaps the State didn't want to pay for all of this??

There are some pretty darned good experts in Colorado, though, just saying.

Thanks for that insight. Hopefully the lab results turn up something.

As we saw in the Mackenzie Lueck case, it is very difficult to burn a body. No way was Kelsey burned to the point of cremation or anything.

The timing just didn’t allow for that.

What strikes me as odd, is that potential melted pieces of the tote remained, but we haven’t heard of any tissue or bone being found.

No trace at all.

 

[Area52]

If you want to believe the murder took place in the living room that's great. But I'll continue to hold my opinion that it did not and the child was not present. The prosecutor had the opportunity to correct the information while Slater was on the witness stand. I think the blog was never corrected because the source at the press conference was the prosecutor and NOT Agent Slater, who testified in court.

According to Slater's testimony, his interview with KK was taped. Hopefully, the jury will get to watch it for themselves to see where KK claimed the murder took place. Kinda strange how the only blood residue LE could detect was all over the bathroom including the door hinges.

I'm looking forward to the trial.

JMO[/QUOTE

 

[MemPat]

If one wants to ignore the red substance under the floorboards, under chairs, and splatter on the fireplace; ok.

If one wants to believe that the baby magically disappeared in the 7 minute time span between Walmart and PF’s return to Kelsey’s house; ok.

Just recognize that’s what a person has to do in order to believe a fantasy.

Ignore evidence.

Well, I personally think the teleporting baby will make the movie far more interesting.

 

[MemPat]

What is your opinion about the child's whereabouts? She was seen on Walmart's cameras with her father, minutes before he arrived at KB's condo, where he killed her.

What did PF do to rid himself of the child in that brief span of time?

Wouldn't the logical answer be that he took her along with him?

Oooooh - logic....I miss it.

 

[Gigi3]

Well, I personally think the teleporting baby will make the movie far more interesting.

I just spit my drink across the room!! LOL thanks for the laugh!

 

[MyBelle]

Okay, forget about the blog. The video below is of the press conference after the hearing.

Just after the 8-minute mark, the lead prosecutor says that the evidence presented today was that Baby K was in the back room when Kelsey was murdered.

Same as the affidavit, same as the courtroom testimony. PF murdered Kelsey in the living room. Or do you think the lead prosecutor is wrong too?

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It's a press conference, not a court hearing. Prosecutors can say whatever they want at press conference.
If Agent Slater testified where KK said the baby was located during the murder, Kraemer didn't mention it anywhere in his blog and he was present at the prelim.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

If you want to believe the murder took place in the living room that's great. But I'll continue to hold my opinion that it did not and the child was not present. The prosecutor had the opportunity to correct the information while Slater was on the witness stand. I think the blog was never corrected because the source at the press conference was the prosecutor and NOT Agent Slater, who testified in court.

According to Slater's testimony, his interview with KK was taped. Hopefully, the jury will get to watch it for themselves to see where KK claimed the murder took place. Kinda strange how the only blood residue LE could detect was all over the bathroom including the door hinges.

I'm looking forward to the trial.

JMO

As to the bolded, here is the evidence that you are mistaken:

Frazee was spotted on surveillance footage at Walmart in Woodland Park between 12:54 p.m. and 1:17 p.m. with a baby carrier, indicating that Berreth had given him physical custody earlier that day.

At 1:24 p.m., surveillance from one of Berreth’s neighbors in Woodland Park showed Frazee in front of her apartment, Adams said.


So he has the baby at Walmart at 1:17 pm. Then he arrives at KB's condo, 7 minutes later.

How did he ditch his baby in that 7 minutes?

 

[MyBelle]

What is your opinion about the child's whereabouts? She was seen on Walmart's cameras with her father, minutes before he arrived at KB's condo, where he killed her.

What did PF do to rid himself of the child in that brief span of time?

Wouldn't the logical answer be that he took her along with him?

The logical answer to me is that the baby remained in her car seat in his truck.