CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - *Arrest* #58

[lindaromas]

I hope the judge forces him and Ma to answer questions on the stand, and if they dont, then I wish additional charges would come down on them for contempt of court or something.

I never have quite understood a few things about pleading the 5th. Maybe some legal eagle who knows could answer.

*What prevents every reluctant or hostile witnesses from always pleading the 5th just to get out of testifying?

*How does a judge prove that their testimony would incriminate themselves? Like what if they are just lying about that to get out of testifying against someone they favor?

*Do the judge and lawyers go into their back chambers with the witness to get them to explain why they cant answer questions?

*And if they are telling the truth that their testimony would incriminate themselves, then doesnt that mean they did something wrong themselves and some other charges of some sort of crime would be warranted for them?

Its confusing to me and Im not sure I will ever fully understand it.

What Does plead the fifth Mean? | Slang by Dictionary.com

I really like this sentence clipped from the above link
"Pleading the fifth is sometimes regarded as proof of guilt, and therefore as an incriminating step. "

 

[Hatfield]

What Does plead the fifth Mean? | Slang by Dictionary.com

I really like this sentence clipped from the above link
"Pleading the fifth is sometimes regarded as proof of guilt, and therefore as an incriminating step. "

Thanks and yeah I like that part too as well as this part which alludes to the witness being involved in some sort of illegal activity themselves.

"a witness at a criminal trial can plead the fifth while testifying in response to questions they fear might implicate them in illegal activity."

Sure seems like additional charges could be warranted if that is the case.

What Does plead the fifth Mean? | Slang by Dictionary.com

 

[?mysterian?]

I hope the judge forces him and Ma to answer questions on the stand, and if they dont, then I wish additional charges would come down on them for contempt of court or something.

I never have quite understood a few things about pleading the 5th. Maybe some legal eagle who knows could answer.

*What prevents every reluctant or hostile witnesses from always pleading the 5th just to get out of testifying?

*How does a judge prove that their testimony would incriminate themselves? Like what if they are just lying about that to get out of testifying against someone they favor?

*Do the judge and lawyers go into their back chambers with the witness to get them to explain why they cant answer questions?

*And if they are telling the truth that their testimony would incriminate themselves, then doesnt that mean they did something wrong themselves and some other charges of some sort of crime would be warranted for them?

Its confusing to me and Im not sure I will ever fully understand it.

Maybe this will help Fifth Amendment

"Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

------------------

From above: "No person [...] shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself [...]"

Now, that covers self-incrimination. But I don't think someone could refuse to testify about, for example, someone returning to their residence on a certain day at a certain time and what that person directly observed them doing (Ma F possibly testifying about when PF returned to the Franchette on T-giving day and what time that was, and the circumstances about the alleged bonfire when KK claims to have been at the Franchette). Idk, ianal.

ETA: She'd probably claim some other reason she couldn't testify if she could plead the 5th, IMO.

 

[Hatfield]

Maybe this will help Fifth Amendment

"Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

------------------

From above: "No person [...] shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself [...]"

Now, that covers self-incrimination. But I don't think someone could refuse to testify about, for example, someone returning to their residence on a certain day at a certain time and what that person directly observed them doing (Ma F possibly testifying about when PF returned to the Franchette on T-giving day and what time that was, and the circumstances about the alleged bonfire when KK claims to have been at the Franchette). Idk, ianal.

ETA: She'd probably claim some other reason she couldn't testify if she could plead the 5th, IMO.

Yes, that is what we have seen in other trials. Make them take the stand and make them pick and choose which questions they can answer and which ones they refuse to answer by taking the 5th.

That way it becomes obvious to the jury when they keep saying "i dont remember" to all the other questions, it can imply they are lying for the defendent. And the jury picks up on that.

 

[?mysterian?]

Yes, that is what we have seen in other trials. Make them take the stand and make them pick and choose which questions they can answer and which ones they refuse to answer by taking the 5th.

That way it becomes obvious to the jury when they keep saying "i dont remember" to all the other questions, it can imply they are lying for the defendent. And the jury picks up on that.

Yep.

 

[susiQ]

Thanks MG. I still find the very thought quite disturbing. If that’s among the tactics that PF’s defense team is going to take - that KB was somehow at fault for the events that lead to her death... I don’t see how that will be a good look to any jury.

Actually, maybe his defense should use that approach. Along with the mountain of evidence that Dan May will present, that approach should seal PF’s fate. IMO

You know, I really feel for Steigerwald. I can only imagine what the last 11 months have been like for him. Initial discovery comes in, and he gets through it and determines a line of defence. More discovery arrives, he reads through and realizes, "cr@p, that ain't gonna work!" More discovery trickles in. The ship is sinking fast! Fast forward to Oct 18th and he gets a years worth of discovery in the last two weeks. Desperately needs more time! Judge says, "Nope!" He's got 10 days to get it together because he's gotta spend 5 days putting together a jury that'll give him the most miniscule chance of an acquittal. I'm guessing poor Steigerwald and staff are running on empty right now. His client is a despicable monster and he knows it. But, he's a professional and he's going to give it his best shot because that's his job, despite the obstacles in his way. His best shot will be directed at the infamous KK.

Yaaayy Steigerwald! Go for it!! It won't help, but the rest of us will relish in seeing that witch exposed

 

[susiQ]

Oh yeah, starting with PF's lovely sister, who degraded and insulted Kelsey with her garbage that she spewed right on here at WS!

Oh yes, and she's been eating "crow" (as CC would say) ever since

 

[susiQ]

Trust me when I say that idea never would have occurred to him.

It's too clever by half.

JMO.

Ultimately, that plan would have backfired even more spectacularly than the idiotic one he went with.

Once law enforcement put the pieces together, they would have realized the same thing that we currently do:

The timeline for KK being the killer, just doesn’t work. Especially when they would have had the added benefit of a body to determine time of death.

I do LOVE how you two think!

 

[LovesPeace2]

Who pays for the flight to Hawaii? Asking for a friend.

I have air miles I got this

 

[GordianKnot]

What will the jury think of most if not all of PF family and friends taking the 5th?! Hope they question and question just how those family and friends were involved and just how involved and guilty were they in helping in a cover up....JMO

There couldn't be a starker contrast between KB's family & friends and PF's motley band of fools.

In particular, the distinction between CB and Ma F is going to be very apparent to jury members.

Somebody suggested earlier that DA May should call the 2 mothers to the stand back-to-back, and I think that idea is absolute genius.
It would powerfully drive home the point that the two sides battling in that courtroom are as far apart as Night and Day.
Or Good vs Evil.

Re: People associated with and sympathetic to PF pleading the 5th, the wild card among them is LeBro, aka SF2.

He's going to be called by the prosecution to testify.
He was at the franch on Thanksgiving Day.
He spoke to PF right before PF was supposed to meet with LE for an interview at Five Guys, and right after talking to SF2, PF clammed up and said he wanted a lawyer.
*Newsflash: PF didn't have that sudden epiphany on his own.

It ain't a good look for a sworn officer of law enforcement to plead the 5th.
Talk about eroding the public's trust.

Bro has a Big Decision to make.

JMO.

 

[oviedo]

What will the jury think of most if not all of PF family and friends taking the 5th?! Hope they question and question just how those family and friends were involved and just how involved and guilty were they in helping in a cover up....JMO

Honestly, by now I had hoped for more arrests. IMO there are other(s) involved

 

[oviedo]

I hope the judge forces him and Ma to answer questions on the stand, and if they dont, then I wish additional charges would come down on them for contempt of court or something.

I never have quite understood a few things about pleading the 5th. Maybe some legal eagle who knows could answer.

*What prevents every reluctant or hostile witnesses from always pleading the 5th just to get out of testifying?

*How does a judge prove that their testimony would incriminate themselves? Like what if they are just lying about that to get out of testifying against someone they favor?

*Do the judge and lawyers go into their back chambers with the witness to get them to explain why they cant answer questions?

*And if they are telling the truth that their testimony would incriminate themselves, then doesnt that mean they did something wrong themselves and some other charges of some sort of crime would be warranted for them?

Its confusing to me and Im not sure I will ever fully understand it.

@gitana1 - @riolove77 - @AZlawyer
any of you all able to help us out understanding the 5th?

 

[MsBetsy]

Robert Slagle I believe is his other older friend who went to the bank, of the “ forget we were here “ orders to the manager

Oh, yeah, thank you.
I wonder what his testimony will be and how much he really knows.

 

[susiQ]

Oh, yeah, thank you.
I wonder what his testimony will be and how much he really knows.

Ditto for me. I also want to know if he or SF witnessed PF's violent temper toward animals. The judge has already ruled that beating one of his cattle is inadmissible, but I wonder if there's a way for the prosecution to address this without getting in trouble How I wish!!

 

[MsBetsy]

Ditto for me. I also want to know if he or SF witnessed PF's violent temper toward animals. The judge has already ruled that beating one of his cattle is inadmissible, but I wonder if there's a way for the prosecution to address this without getting in trouble How I wish!!

Well, it probably wouldn't do any good because "his people" have said that PF works and trains animals the old fashioned way. It may be considered acceptable in some parts to hit animals when they don't do what's expected of them.
Maybe if the ex- girlfriend testifies she can reveal what she witnessed in part of her testimony. I think she said she saw him beating a dog or some animal.

Imo

 

[steeltowngirl]

Honestly, by now I had hoped for more arrests. IMO there are other(s) involved

Dan May is methodical.
First take down the killer - PF.
The rest of the evil cowards will fall right behind.

 

[susiQ]

There couldn't be a starker contrast between KB's family & friends and PF's motley band of fools.

In particular, the distinction between CB and Ma F is going to be very apparent to jury members.

Somebody suggested earlier that DA May should call the 2 mothers to the stand back-to-back, and I think that idea is absolute genius.
It would powerfully drive home the point that the two sides battling in that courtroom are as far apart as Night and Day.
Or Good vs Evil.

Re: People associated with and sympathetic to PF pleading the 5th, the wild card among them is LeBro, aka SF2.

He's going to be called by the prosecution to testify.
He was at the franch on Thanksgiving Day.
He spoke to PF right before PF was supposed to meet with LE for an interview at Five Guys, and right after talking to SF2, PF clammed up and said he wanted a lawyer.
*Newsflash: PF didn't have that sudden epiphany on his own.

It ain't a good look for a sworn officer of law enforcement to plead the 5th.
Talk about eroding the public's trust.

Bro has a Big Decision to make.

JMO.

So very, very true. How can one not see the glaring difference between these two families. I hope SF2 makes the right choice. It would speak well for him. As for his sister, I hope she has "seen the light."

I commented before on how jurors may sympathize with KK, seeing her as another "victim" of PF, which doesn't help him. I, of course, am not in that camp. But the most important thing that will be revealed is the truth, the love, the goodness and "light" that CB exudes. IT will win the day. I am confident there won't be one juror that can't sympathize with CB, her utter sorrow at losing a beloved daughter and friend to such a hideous act, yet she speaks with grace and love and has such joy in raising her much cherished granddaughter. God bless CB to keep her strong. Justice for Kelsey and her family.

 

[Sweetsbeach]

I keep thinking about PF's mom seeking immunity.
I don't think it bodes well when you're on trial and your mother has to either plead the 5th or gain immunity for her testimony...

 

[Niner]

Yes, that is what we have seen in other trials. Make them take the stand and make them pick and choose which questions they can answer and which ones they refuse to answer by taking the 5th.

That way it becomes obvious to the jury when they keep saying "i dont remember" to all the other questions, it can imply they are lying for the defendent. And the jury picks up on that.

I believe - and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong - but once you take the 5th - you have to take it for ALL questions asked. You can't pick & choose which ones you are going answer. At least that is my understanding!

No updates from the court room yet? TIA!

 

[Hatfield]

I believe - and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong - but once you take the 5th - you have to take it for ALL questions asked. You can't pick & choose which ones you are going answer. At least that is my understanding!

No updates from the court room yet? TIA!

I dont think that is correct. From link below:

Can Any Witness Plead the Fifth?

"At a criminal trial, it is not only the defendant who enjoys the Fifth Amendment right not to testify. Witnesses who are called to the witness stand can refuse to answer certain questions if answering would implicate them in any type of criminal activity (not limited to the case being tried). Witnesses (as well as defendants) in organized crime trials often plead the Fifth, for instance.


But unlike defendants, witnesses who assert this right may do so selectively and do not waive their rights the moment they begin answering questions. Also, unlike defendants, witnesses may be forced by law to testify (typically by subpoena)."


Fifth Amendment Right Against Self-Incrimination - FindLaw