Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #43

[NuttMegg]

He sure was there a lot according to the SM posts. She was gone a lot vacationing, making videos while he was according to her cleaning, cooking, playing games with the kids, mowing the yard.

The only time I saw her play with the kids was when she was shooting water in the kids face.

Chris was playing with kids with the whipped creams - she filmed and gave orders.

She filmed and gave orders while he was playing with kids hair.

She filmed and gave orders while he was playing with them running around in circles.

She filmed and gave orders while he was carrying them on his shoulders.

I am sure I have not seen everything - but thus far I have not seen anything other than her filming, directing everyone or talking about herself and how amazing her husband was .

I am new and do not know if videos are allowed - but that is all I have seen.

If there allowed and anyone has seen any video of her playing with the children, talking with her husband etc etc that would be great if they could be put up here.

He is a murderer - that he has acknowledged and needs to spend the rest of his life in prison.

The only interactions I saw of her and the kids alone was complaining about how hard they were to control.

As far as Trent being contacted by LE way before Trent went on AB he discussed the distress of learning what CW had done. In those moving posts he described the problems he was experiencing. He described LE contacting him because he was on CW phone.

We have to notice that LE has never said that the sex between them was not true. In addition, from the beginning LE left out gender whenever referring to an affair. IMO that fits in that by that time they knew he had sex with men as well woman. They (on purpose) left out gender when referring to an affair - which at first I thought was odd.

AB crew confirmed seeing texts between the two before deciding to air his story.

Shan'nan was gone a lot vacationing?
How would you propose that she show herself playing with her kids while filming the scene herself? Did CW help out with the filming?
She "gave orders"? Have you ever filmed a family video, and tried to get everyone to smile at the right time, appear in the correct part of the screen and so forth? It's a challenge.
Why would you expect her to film herself playing with her kids? As some sort of proof, of what, that she cared for them, in case her husband one day murdered her?
To find out if your videos are allowed, just contact the moderators.
No, he did not acknowledge that he is a murderer. He did however admit to the desecration of his family's bodies. And the to killing of Shan'nan and her fetus.

 

[molly1255]

Yes, he confessed to killing Shanann but he may hope it is seen as a form of self defence, or that he went into an out of control rage after being traumatized by seeing his children killed. Things like this have been used in the past in order to plea down to a lower charge so it's not that far off to assume he may be trying to do the same. Also, the death sentence may not seem to make a difference to us but could very well be significant to those who care about CW. Especially his family. Jmo

I agree, per the affidavit, he "confessed" to killing SW, but claimed he did it in a rage, after seeing Bella dead and SW actively strangling CeCe.

That's not murder 1, after deliberation, which appears to be OP's assertion. Every lie he has told has been an attempt to try to avoid facing consequences for his own actions. JMO. I see his "confession" as just another example of this.

 

[Thepoet]

The financial conclusions were reached by careful review of the bankruptcy filing. Interestingly, in America medical bills are often a huge part of bankruptcy. It struck me as unique that in the filing there was minimal health care bills.

For a family system to have 75% of the family very sick (per SW report) most of the time there was a chiropractor bill in the bankruptcy. In the videos everyone looks fine.

In addition , the alleged fertility problems are certainly not illustrated in the facts of the matter. It appears, in very short order, she gave birth, on time, to two children. In any SM I did not come across anything related to difficulties while pregnant. That does not mean there were not any, but interesting.

We have a person allegedly suffering with two lifelong chronic illnesses whose primary symptom is fatigue - appearing to have a lot of energy of filming and vacationing etc etc.

Doing the math in the last 60 months she spent 22 months pregnant. That might be exhausting for a healthy woman!

There is no way to determine if one has fibromyalgia. There is however a lot of information as it relates to fibromyalgia, malingering and personality disorders.

Just saying.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1.........0i71j35i39j35i304i39j0i7i30.mgskcjaVHJo

The bankruptcy was, what, over three years ago? First, anyone who hasn't had a serious, debilitating disease that has few or no obvious visible symptoms, has no idea how difficult it can be, because everyone sees you as being healthy and expects you to act healthy. I have personal and long term experience with this (3 family members, one with Lupus} and I think what we've seen is a testament to Shanann's strength and perseverance. Second, when moving to Colorado, she took HER money and used it to help with the move and with the down payment on a house in his name. What did he put up? Finally, the bankruptcy records give you a small snapshot of their financial life BEFORE the bankruptcy. We haven't seen current (the last three years) bank records, tax records, credit records, etc.

Just saying.

 

[PommyMommy]

He sure was there a lot according to the SM posts. She was gone a lot vacationing, making videos while he was according to her cleaning, cooking, playing games with the kids, mowing the yard.

Respectfully snipped by me for focus

"She was gone a lot vacationing" is misleading. CW joined her on almost every Lifestyle Getaway that she or they earned. She also made ordinary business trips as it was the nature of her business. You may be confusing "vacationing" with "business." She was in sales. It required travel. I am sure there are lots of folks here who travel for business. I did it myself for years and believe me, it was no "vacation."

Here are a few photos of BOTH CW and Shanann vacationing. They BOTH seem to be enjoying themselves. WS limits the number of photos to 10 per post, but there are many more. Link to photos here: https://www.facebook.com/ShanannWatts/photos?lst=100004929826139:507111934:1541086709&collection_token=507111934:2305272732:6&next_cursor=MDpub3Rfc3RydWN0dXJlZDoxMDE1NDc4NTk1OTEwMTkzNQ==

Puerto Vallarta:

Also see: Shanann Watts

Las Vegas:


San Diego


Chris and I earned a full expense trip to Mexico and up until today we couldn't go bc we didn't have help with the girls! My mom and dad made it work and my mom is coming to take care of our girls for the 4 days (I threw two extra days in so I can spend time with her too!) Truly blessed to have supportive parents! #Blessed #PuertoVallarta #Lifestylegetaway#Fullexpensepdtrip — with Bella Marie Watts,Celeste Cathryn and Frank Rzucek.
Shanann Watts

 

[wildflower@]

The bankruptcy was, what, over three years ago? First, anyone who hasn't had a serious, debilitating disease that has few or no obvious visible symptoms, has no idea how difficult it can be, because everyone sees you as being healthy and expects you to act healthy. I have personal and long term experience with this (3 family members, one with Lupus} and I think what we've seen is a testament to Shanann's strength and perseverance. Second, when moving to Colorado, she took HER money and used it to help with the move and with the down payment on a house in his name. What did he put up? Finally, the bankruptcy records give you a small snapshot of their financial life BEFORE the bankruptcy. We haven't seen current (the last three years) bank records, tax records, credit records, etc.

Just saying.

I certainly agree things might have changed. I was referring to the bankruptcy only in that it is the only documented info we have.

 

[NuttMegg]

The financial conclusions were reached by careful review of the bankruptcy filing. Interestingly, in America medical bills are often a huge part of bankruptcy. It struck me as unique that in the filing there was minimal health care bills.

What we know from the filings is he was making at least three times as much as she was at the time. The notion that he was a dead beat father does not appear supported by all the SM posts made.

For a family system to have 75% of the family very sick (per SW report) there was minimal medical in the bankruptcy.

In addition , the alleged fertility problems are certainly not illustrated in the facts of the matter. It appears, in very short order, she gave birth, on time, to two children. In any SM I did not come across anything related to difficulties while pregnant. That does not mean there were not any, but interesting.

We have a person allegedly suffering with two lifelong chronic illnesses whose primary symptom is fatigue - appearing to have a lot of energy of filming and vacationing etc etc.

Doing the math in the last 60 months she spent 22 months pregnant. That might be exhausting for a healthy woman!

There is no way to determine if one has fibromyalgia. There is however a lot of information as it relates to fibromyalgia, malingering and personality disorders.

Just saying.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1.........0i71j35i39j35i304i39j0i7i30.mgskcjaVHJo

Are her videos allowed on this forum?

Apparently your analysis of their incomes is based on the date of the bankruptcy filing?
I haven't seen anyone here call CW a "dead beat" father, so why construct that straw man?
When did SW report that 75% of her family was "very sick"?
But, further, what difference would all of this make? The composition of the bankruptcy, who had been sick in the family, whether or not she had easy pregnancies. I'm not following your train of thought, what are you trying to say?
What if there were no medical expenses in the bankruptcy, what if the family did have illnesses, what if she didn't film herself "playing with her kids"? And the insinuation that she was "malingering" with Fibromylagia and that she had "personality disorders"?

What are you trying to say, why would any of this, if true, relate to how she and her kids were murdered?

 

[Thepoet]

Apparently your analysis of their incomes is based on the date of the bankruptcy filing?
I haven't seen anyone here call CW a "dead beat" father, so why construct that straw man?
When did SW report that 75% of her family was "very sick"?
But, further, what difference would all of this make? The composition of the bankruptcy, who had been sick in the family, whether or not she had easy pregnancies. I'm not following your train of thought, what are you trying to say?
What if there were no medical expenses in the bankruptcy, what if the family did have illnesses, what if she didn't film herself "playing with her kids"? And the insinuation that she was "malingering" with Fibromylagia and that she had "personality disorders"?

What are you trying to say, why would any of this, if true, relate to how she and her kids were murdered?

Bravo. Very well said and good questions.

 

[whisperOFwings]

Good morning Peeps
I had so much typed out, but just deleted it. It felt like I was just spinning in circles.

So, for now, I will post these lovely Mama and Babies pictures.
And step away for a bit.

Links to pics...
Mom & Kids Vanish, Husband Pleads for Help — Then 3 Bodies Turn Up: How Watts Murder Case Unfolded
Bodies of Colorado girls allegedly killed by dad 'were submerged in oil' for days
Shanann Watts' Picture-Perfect Marriage On Facebook Was Anything But | HuffPost
Before Husband Allegedly Murdered Her, Pregnant Woman Had Gushed: 'He's the Best Thing'

 

[NuttMegg]

I certainly agree things might have changed. I was referring to the bankruptcy only in that it is the only documented info we have.

What would you say it proves, if there are no large medical expenses in the bankruptcy? Why would you be concerned about that?

 

[idfinch]

We have no idea if she was pregnant. Prank pregnancy tests are easy to obtain. He’s been charged with death of an unborn child. I’m pretty sure the autopsy confirmed she was pregnant

We have no idea who the father is. Are you speculating? What is your point?

We have no idea if she was not having affair. Double negative means you think she was having an affair? Link please .....

Thank you for this, and your entire well-thought-out post. I very much appreciate the time you took to write it.

I understand we have to explore both sides of the situation because of his accusations. But some of this has gone so far past victim bashing to the baseless evisceration of a dead woman’s character that I need to take a break. I’m thoroughly disgusted.

 

[wildflower@]

What I am saying (it is mo) is that to me, it is within the realm of probability that a young lady who described herself as being fragile in her videos about how everything was so bad earlier that there might be a pretty intense response to actually hear what she might have heard that night.

For any individual who endlessly tells the world how her husband is the best. The greatest. Her rock. She could not survive without him. Would not be here if it were not for him. That is the greatest. That takes total care of her. The provides for her better than any other person she has ever met in her existence thus far - in her life. The best daddy ever. The best husband ever. Ever.

Might be pretty traumatized to finally hear, for the first time, that this greatest person ever is actually leaving.

That is an emotional conversation. Out of anything he said that description of the night so struck me. His leaving the area fits with what I think actually happened.

SHE lost it - at first not him. MOO. She also might have learned that night for the very first time that he found love with someone else might be pretty upsetting.

To then learn that in addition to learning your rock. your foundation, what you take in every breath for every minute of your life , has also been enjoying sex with men - that is a reasonably rough conversation.

For someone who endless states how another person is the rock of their lives - it might make some sense to feel some deep wounding, rage.

The notion that someone in that moment might not want to strike back in the most dramatic fashion is really not all that out there.

What way could she hurt him the most. He had love. Employ. His children. In a rage IMO that is what happened that night.

Just like each of you have your opinion - I do as well.

One can not have it both ways. Either it was all a commercial or a cover for a very scared and lonely young lady. Per her reports she describes being left by everyone.

IMO in reality the chronic need to endlessly chant how awesome he is indicative of some profound insecurities.

Kind of like hearing herself say it all the time. It certainly is not typical at that point in a relationship. At first maybe - after years of marriage it was strange and peculiar.

Just another angle - it is not beyond being possible. LE filed all the charges weeks before any medical examination.

To conclude that LE does not believe him when they charged him with it all, instantly, weeks before anything was known, is more than curious.

Every state is different - but there sure is an interesting and relentless need to keep the autopsy secret. That also, is not common.

That is what I think happened. Difference is what makes the world interesting.

 

[NuttMegg]

She said she had been in a "dark place" after her divorce. (Similar to what nearly every other divorced person has gone through) She didn't say what you claim "how everything was so bad earlier", although you could post a link if you have time.

Both her mother and her hairdresser said that Shan'nan's marriage was in trouble, during the visit to her parents'. Weeks before he murdered her.

When did she learn he had been having sex with men? link, pls.

She was 34 and had been married previously. She was no shrinking violet, she had purchased a home a young age, and contributed the sales profits to her new marriage, she ran a lucrative home business. Chris contributed "what"? She made home videos and those oriented toward work. None of us know how many private videos she made for extended family, nor which were taken off shortly after she was murdered. Nor how any had been edited.

LE didn't charge CW "weeks before anything was known", and they didn't charge him "instantly".

What I think happened is that one of the APs gave him an ultimatum, or actually broke it off with him that weekend, as he had, IMO, lied about breaking up his marriage and family and one of the APs was tired of hearing that.
Infuriated, he killed the family who he blamed for his loss of the clandestine sex life. And brutally desecrated their bodies, showing the whole world exactly what he had thought of them the whole time. (IMO).

 

[Thepoet]

View attachment 153683 View attachment 153684 View attachment 153685 View attachment 153686 View attachment 153688

Good morning Peeps
I had so much typed out, but just deleted it. It felt like I was just spinning in circles.

So, for now, I will post these lovely Mama and Babies pictures.
And step away for a bit.

Links to pics...
Mom & Kids Vanish, Husband Pleads for Help — Then 3 Bodies Turn Up: How Watts Murder Case Unfolded
Bodies of Colorado girls allegedly killed by dad 'were submerged in oil' for days
Shanann Watts' Picture-Perfect Marriage On Facebook Was Anything But | HuffPost
Before Husband Allegedly Murdered Her, Pregnant Woman Had Gushed: 'He's the Best Thing'

Beautiful. Thank you.

 

[PommyMommy]

The hero notion of her friend is also somewhat out there. IMO the reality here is her best friend knew she could be emotionally fragile and possibly self harm. At no time did the friend report that she had concerns of her being in physical danger (DV). Nor has anyone else involved ever made mention of such.

The friend rushing over there in such a short period of time actually feels much more like a suicide concern than a triple murder notion. Welfare checks (for their age group) would be more self harm than anything else.

She was histrionic to say the least. A dramatic suicide attempt after learning that her rock, her life, the bestest thing ever ever in her life, on the planet, seems far more likely on the friends part.

Respectfully snipped by me for focus...

There is ZERO evidence and ZERO reporting to support the insinuation that Shanann was suicidal, emotionally fragile or would self-harm. To suggest these things is yet another textbook example of victim bashing which is against WS TOS.

Please read the affidavit, which states:

On August 13, 2018 at approximately 1340 hours Officer Coonrod was dispatched to 2825 Saratoga Trail on a check well-being (CWB) call. The reporting party, Nicole Utoft, called about her friend, Shanann Watts (01-10-1984). Nicole stated she dropped Shanann off at her residence around 0148 hours (8-13-18) after returning from a business trip that took place in Arizona. Nicole stated Shanann was fifteen weeks pregnant and was not feeling well during the trip.

Later that morning (8-13-18) Nicole became concerned because Shanann was not answering her phone calls or text messages and also missed her doctor appointment that was scheduled for 10:00 AM. Nicole went to Shanann's residence and discovered her car in the garage with car seats positioned inside of it. Shanann and her husband, Christopher Watts (DOB: 05-16-85), have two daughters, Celeste Watts (DOB: 07-17-2015) and Bella Watts (DOB: 12-17-2013).

Nicole attempted to enter the front door but a latch prevented it from opening more than three inches. Nicole called Christopher Watts and requested he come home to check on Shanann as she believed Shanann may be suffering or passed out due to some medical condition.

There is nothing, nada, zilch, zero that indicates NUA was doing anything other than acting out of concern for someone she loved because of the reasons stated in the affidavit.

https://www.courts.state.co.us/user...18CR2003/001/Warrantless Arrest Affidavit.pdf

 

[PommyMommy]

View attachment 153683 View attachment 153684 View attachment 153685 View attachment 153686 View attachment 153688

Good morning Peeps
I had so much typed out, but just deleted it. It felt like I was just spinning in circles.

So, for now, I will post these lovely Mama and Babies pictures.
And step away for a bit.

Links to pics...
Mom & Kids Vanish, Husband Pleads for Help — Then 3 Bodies Turn Up: How Watts Murder Case Unfolded
Bodies of Colorado girls allegedly killed by dad 'were submerged in oil' for days
Shanann Watts' Picture-Perfect Marriage On Facebook Was Anything But | HuffPost
Before Husband Allegedly Murdered Her, Pregnant Woman Had Gushed: 'He's the Best Thing'

Thank you for the photos, Whisper. You are a breath of fresh air!
MOO

 

[nwmouse]

Hi all, been reading through these threads for a while, then got to the end just to discover the thread had been shut down. So pleased it's back open, I love hearing everyone's thoughts.
So I did a mad thing while the thread was shut and decided to transcribe (to the best of my ability) CW's ramblings from the 3 media interviews.

Links:

9 SW-cw interview 9 news.pdf

7 SW-CW-Denver7Interview.pdf

KDVR SW-CW-KDVR-interview.pdf


Colorado303 just mentioned this, but it stuck out to me too; the use of distancing language "THOSE kids" .
Along with several other things:
Manipulation: "If she doesn't get back to me that's fine, she's busy" (I'm not someone who gets worked up about stuff: I'm totally chill). "I don't want to put anything out there..." (Nothing bad would even cross my mind and I certainly wouldn't do anything bad. I won't frame anyone else either, I'm a good person. But I will put the thoughts in your head that somebody else did it and it wasn't me)
Duper's Delight appears a lot, along with a slight challenge once he felt he'd answered a question sufficiently - like he's seeing if they believe him. Sucking his lips inwards as if to silence himself, self-hugging as if to comfort himself. Makes it about him: HE's having a tough time, it's a nightmare for him, he feels like crap, he can't stay in the house. He misses... telling the kids off...? Okay...
He "just wants them back"...how many times does he say that?! Hmm, methinks thou dost protest too much. The LAUGH - what is this? A laugh of frustration, anger, expelling tension, glee?
One final thing I noticed; we know he uses the word 'like' a lot. But in the Denver 7 interview he uses " I mean" a lot. Could it be he felt the reporter wasn't giving him as much sympathy as the others? This reporter's questions were more direct. Did CW feel the need to gel with him by saying ' you know, you know what it's like'?
Sorry for the long ramble, I've held these thoughts in for a while!

He was unemotional during those interviews. He never once expressed concern that they could have had an accident, could be in pain, hungry, scared, alone. NOTHING. He yapped about his shirt some and smirked. Even strangers online were more concerned about his family's well being than he was.

 

[nwmouse]

I agree -- its strange -- much more of his stuff fits than anything she portrayed about anything ever. Ever.

In fact it makes no sense whatsoever to admit to strangling your wife to death, wrapping up your wife and children and dunking them in filthy oil and tossing her in the ground.

Your not free ever again with that confession - why not confess to all of it IF you did all of it. What he confessed to doing is horrid.

She is dead. Dead people are not concerned about their reputation as far as I know. So the notion that he wanted the world to think she did it - makes no sense at all! She is dead.

I think roid rage is a much bigger component of this tragedy. His confession appears more upfront than any of the SM fantasy stuff.

BBM:
Can you please link and advise which Social Media fantasy stuff?

 

[cocomod]

It is likely that the prosecutors are holding things very close to the vest, not necessarily that they are not confident. We have no true idea at this moment how much evidence they have.

I have watched several pending trials where the defendant is claiming innocence hard, long, and loud. Then, as the trial gets near, and they find out exactly how stacked the prosecutor's had is at proving their guilt, they finally plea or make a deal - even when just weeks before it seemed completely not possible. A good example of that is Stephen McDaniels. Some of the evidence was shocking to those of us that watched from the beginning. I had no doubt of his guilt, but the camera evidence and other items were nails in his coffin - so to speak.

 

[rainynights]

For any individual who endlessly tells the world how her husband is the best. The greatest. Her rock. She could not survive without him. Would not be here if it were not for him. That is the greatest. That takes total care of her. The provides for her better than any other person she has ever met in her existence thus far - in her life. The best daddy ever. The best husband ever. Ever.

Might be pretty traumatized to finally hear, for the first time, that this greatest person ever is actually leaving.

That is an emotional conversation. Out of anything he said that description of the night so struck me. His leaving the area fits with what I think actually happened.

SHE lost it - at first not him. MOO. She also might have learned that night for the very first time that he found love with someone else might be pretty upsetting.

To then learn that in addition to learning your rock. your foundation, what you take in every breath for every minute of your life , has also been enjoying sex with men - that is a reasonably rough conversation.

For someone who endless states how another person is the rock of their lives - it might make some sense to feel some deep wounding, rage.

The notion that someone in that moment might not want to strike back in the most dramatic fashion is really not all that out there.

What way could she hurt him the most. He had love. Employ. His children. In a rage IMO that is what happened that night.

Just like each of you have your opinion - I do as well.

RSBM for focus

Perhaps this woman may have actually been pretty traumatized to find out that her husband - the one she spoke so highly of - disturbingly wasn't the man she thought he was.

SW seemed to be a problem solver. She had been through one divorce before, and was on her way to build upon her success as a career woman. She seemed to be a proud mom of two beautiful girls, with a third one on the way.

Had SW learned of any of CW's tremendous lies and affairs, I get the feeling that the last person she would be thinking of would be herself. With her seemingly huge love of her girls and natural characteristic of being a go-getter, I believe SW would have had her girls as the top priority in her mind, and would have strategically and safely found a way to get her and her girls out of a bad situation. CW would make sure she didn't get that chance, IMO.

As for SW striking back at CW by getting him where he hurts most -- his children -- that movie wouldn't even make it to filming, with a plot that bad. To hear a story about two people, married to each other, who both apparently found the children to be disposable like trash. Considering the girls were subsequently stuffed by CW in two oil tanks.

Problem solvers like SW and loving moms like SW don't kill their children to get back at their cheating husbands, IMO.

But a person who strangles his wife, buried her, dumps his kids in oil tanks, and lies to her family, friends, the media, and the public? Yes, that sounds about right. I believe CW killed them all. Jmo

 

[Tippy Lynn]

What I am saying (it is mo) is that to me, it is within the realm of probability that a young lady who described herself as being fragile in her videos about how everything was so bad earlier that there might be a pretty intense response to actually hear what she might have heard that night.

For any individual who endlessly tells the world how her husband is the best. The greatest. Her rock. She could not survive without him. Would not be here if it were not for him. That is the greatest. That takes total care of her. The provides for her better than any other person she has ever met in her existence thus far - in her life. The best daddy ever. The best husband ever. Ever.

Might be pretty traumatized to finally hear, for the first time, that this greatest person ever is actually leaving.

That is an emotional conversation. Out of anything he said that description of the night so struck me. His leaving the area fits with what I think actually happened.

SHE lost it - at first not him. MOO. She also might have learned that night for the very first time that he found love with someone else might be pretty upsetting.

To then learn that in addition to learning your rock. your foundation, what you take in every breath for every minute of your life , has also been enjoying sex with men - that is a reasonably rough conversation.

For someone who endless states how another person is the rock of their lives - it might make some sense to feel some deep wounding, rage.

The notion that someone in that moment might not want to strike back in the most dramatic fashion is really not all that out there.

What way could she hurt him the most. He had love. Employ. His children. In a rage IMO that is what happened that night.

Just like each of you have your opinion - I do as well.

One can not have it both ways. Either it was all a commercial or a cover for a very scared and lonely young lady. Per her reports she describes being left by everyone.

IMO in reality the chronic need to endlessly chant how awesome he is indicative of some profound insecurities.

Kind of like hearing herself say it all the time. It certainly is not typical at that point in a relationship. At first maybe - after years of marriage it was strange and peculiar.

Just another angle - it is not beyond being possible. LE filed all the charges weeks before any medical examination.

To conclude that LE does not believe him when they charged him with it all, instantly, weeks before anything was known, is more than curious.

Every state is different - but there sure is an interesting and relentless need to keep the autopsy secret. That also, is not common.

That is what I think happened. Difference is what makes the world interesting.

You make some very valid points. It's difficult to post the other side of the coin on a thread like this. I applaud you for having the courage to post your opinion.